Mainline across snowmobile trail

[ennismaple]

For our 2013-2014 expansion in our "New" bush we need to extend a mainline across a snowmobile trail. We're estimating there is 400 taps that need to cross the trail. We'll take the mainline line down after each season so it's not an issue for ATV's during the summer months. The trail isn't public but is commonly used by locals out for a tour so we don't want to block it off during maple syrup season.

Where the mainline crosses the trail. it will be about mid-thigh high. I see 3 potential options:

1. Install a 4ft high sap ladder. This will be either a lot of spiders or multiple vertical pipes. This is the least maintenance but we will lose some vacuum through the sap ladder.
2. Install the mainline across the road and build a ramp for the snowmobiles to drive over the mainline. I figure a 4x8 sheet of plywood on each side with a 4ft flat piece over the mainline. I can see this possibly being a liability issue and condoning the snowmobiles use of the trail
3. Install the mainline across the road and build a detour around the area. We'd have to block off the trail with a sawhorse and warning sign.

Thoughts? Each option has its pluses and minuses. Anyone else had to do something similar and can suggest an alternative?

[bobbyjake]

It seems likely that some portion of the 400 taps can be "picked" up and allowed to flow over the trail at an elevation high enough to by-pass a ladder. If so, do that. Once you know how many still remain that won't make it over without the ladder, re-evaluate your options. The fewer you have relying on the ladder, the better off you will be.

[jasonl6]

I would not build a ramp, People will want to jump it. If for some reason the ramp breaks or someone slides off and gets hurt you will be liable. Maybe the pipe Chest high and put allot of ribbon tape up to make sure people see it's there. Most people will not be riding a sled while your making syrup.

Jason

[Thad Blaisdell]

Is the 400 installed already? if so just do the sap ladder but go at least 6 feet at the lowest side. consider snowfall in the equation. if not I would do what was mentionad already.... get as many to come over by itself and then sap ladder the rest.

[ClarkFarmMapleSyrup]

I have a similar situation with my new bush. I have a crossing and the mainline needs to go across it to another set of trees below, and across the path. The 2 lines and wire are tied off at the sides of the trail. the piece of mainline thats connected and going across the trail is also on mainline wire connected to a tree for tensioning, and the other en of it has a loop that I use a ratchet strap to crank up to another tree. This allows me to tighten and loosen this section so I can take it down. there is a camlock fitting that I use to disconnect the line and the reconnect and tighten with the ratchet when I leave.

[TRAILGUY]

do they groom the trail? I run a groomer and do trail work. Have you talked to the local snowmobile club yet. They may help. In NH all trails are insured.

[Thad Blaisdell]

another thought to add.... do the ladder but make it so that you can quickly change it to go straight across.... when there is no more snow switch it to go straight.

[maple flats]

I had a similar situation in one lease. No groomed trails but in 3 spots I had to do something. On 2 I put the line at it's best elevation for the tubing and hung lots of orange ribbons from it (both were side trails. On the 3rd I moved the trail over to where it was in a location where snowmobiles had about 7' to go under the lines. All 3 spots were on on my wet dry system, where I have 1.5" dry over 1.25" wet, spaced about 8". Then I used lots of orange plastic ribbon, hanging from the lines almost to the ground about every 8-10" across the entire trail and out to the nearest thicket. Last season, no issues, but then we had very little snow. I hope all goes well with a snowy season.

[Bruce L]

Hi Marty,we have the same thing,about the same number of taps,and we did a ramp out of fill,ran the mainline through a length of Big "O". However,make sure there is lots of fall as ours freezes up quite often,plan to change it to a different system for this season.
Bruce

[wglenmapler]

We have a similiar situtation. We ran another wet/dry branching over through the other taps for this section and sleeved the trail in one of the lower elevation areas. Seemed to work well as I hate lifting sap. We all do what we have to, but sometimes you have no choice.

[Thad Blaisdell]

run it through something bigger like a large culvert. more air space

replying to Bruce L

[rayi]

Why not just run the 400 taps to their own tank. You might want to set it off the trail to prevent yellow sap. Those snowmobilers like their beer

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Lapierre has a video on a reverse slope releaser. We currently have 350 on a dual pipe ladder but it drops the vacuum from 26 to 18. We'd like to try the reverse slope releaser in 2014.

[collinsmapleman2012]

maybe if you were going to put in a ladder anyways, you could drop the lines, put them underground, then lift them afterward to the height you need. this might also allow you to lower the whole addition as well. it might be a bit cheaper than a ramp also

[Maplewalnut]

do they groom the trail? I run a groomer and do trail work. Have you talked to the local snowmobile club yet. They may help. In NH all trails are insured.

If it is groomed you may need more than 6-7 feet clearance

[ennismaple]

Lots of good discussion - thanks!

No, the trail is not groomed nor is it part of any formal trail system. It has been used by locals as long as I can remember who are travelling through from one concession road to another so they can get to the lake and open up their machines. The sleds normally travel through for a week or two at the start of the season and then the ATV's come out. Otherwise, the suggestion to use a sap ladder at the start and then drop it back down through another mainline is a good one!

I don't like the ramp idea either but it was an option. We did also consider building it up with fill and putting the mainline in a culvert. I know several producers who do this under roads and they have issues with freezup frequently. We don't have power anywhere near this location so we can't heat trace it. To get the mainline with enough slope, a 12" culvert and a bit of fill on top of the CSP we're looking at 5 ft of fill.

Installing a separate tank and releaser is a valid option. However, we have 2 x 1500 gallon tanks at the bottom of the hill that I'd much rather use than another tank and releaser. Plus, by the time we put a releaser on top of a 500 gallon tank the mainlines are coming in at close to 6ft high - not far off the 8ft I figure we need the mainline at to be able to get our Massey under it and to have sleds safely pass under when there's 3 ft of snow.

I do like the suggestion to take whatever taps we can over at say 8ft and drag the mainline back up the hill until it gets to a normal height. We might get 200-300 taps draining normally this way and maybe only 100 taps on a ladder.

Keep the ideas coming! I'm sure I'm not the only one benefitting from this discussion!

[Thad Blaisdell]

Oh wait you are in Canada, my suggestion is to just forget completely about those taps...... they are just not worth the bother lol

[twobears1224]

we have two mainlines acrossed a public atv/snowsled trail there both ran thur culvert pipes on wire.they,ve been there for five going on six years.the tricks are to put them on wire and well tied to it without dips to hold sap that will freeze and to keep the ends of the culvert open when sap is running or has been running to prevert the sap from freezing in the line.in the off season close the ends of the culverts off to keep rabbits,ect out so they don,t bite the tubing.
also likes been said make the fill so that it can,t be used as a jumping ramp by the atvs and sleds..we had one that was used that way the first year.i filled it in more and now they don,t jump it.one culvert is only laying right at ground level then covered over with a couple feet of dirt.the other one we built up a good five feet then put dirt over the pipe to cover it completely over..thats the one they jumped over till i fixed it.

[stagecoach maples]

What about a culvert with a dirt ramp over it

[Gone Maple]

i rent my taps and the land owner put a road right up the middle of my bush. i was told a sap ladder would drop the vaccum i got a lift tank they are cheep and i did not drop my vacuum you can go up to 900 taps and when you turn off the vacuum it drains it self so you have no freze up. i like mine and i would recomend it to aney one.

[Beweller]

Put in two ladders, one on each side of the road. The upstream ladder lifts the sap. The downstream ladder drops it back, giving you natural vacuum.

For ideal ladders, there is no net loss of vacuum. In practice, some loss. To minimize the loss minimize the air/gas, providing the vacuum is sufficient to start the ladder. Also, make the ladder with as small a diameter tube(s) practical for the sap flow. Only short lengths are involved, so sap velocity can be high without excessive pressure drop.

[Edward Howell]

This is difficult to expain ,

1. Install a post on each side of the path so they cannot be hit by the quads in summer .

2. create a u shape out of 3/4 pipe which will be about 8 to 10 feet wide and about 5 feet high in the vertical position and attach to the post and attach your mainline .

3. when the trees are running the u shape is level with the ground.

4. when you wish to go thru during syrup time you lift the u shape to the vertical position ( looks like a gateway ) once thru lower the u back to level with the ground .

5. once syrup time is over leave the gate in the upright postion .

Hope this helps :)

[ennismaple]

To resurrect an old thread - to keep the mainline at a reasonable height and avoid a sap ladder our best option is to divert the trail around the section of bush where we need to cross the road. I'll put flagging, a slow moving vehicle sign and a sheet of plywood with "Detour" painted on it across the trail at the top of the hill, cut a new trail across the crest of the hill and around the section where we're adding tubing. The mainline will only go across the trail once the pumps are started and I'm sure after a season most of the people will be used to it. This option will be less mainline, less time to install and will get us the most sap per tap. Often the simplest solution is the best one!

[Rselleck91]

I had same issue I set my mainline up. Put it in a PVC pipe and took a skid steer and barried it and made a small hill. Not a mound to have riders jump and mess around gradual up gradual back down. Works slick