The new Check Valve Adapters

[spud]

I just got my new issue of the Maple News and on the back cover there is a full page add on the new CV2s. Leader spends all the money to advertise this and then say's (to learn more go to their site or call them). I see nothing on their site talking about the new CV2s but only a sale on the old CVs. The ad say's these spouts have been tested by (large syrup producers) but the leader site offers no test results. In fact the Leader site does not even talk about the new spouts at all. I have also E-mailed Leader and have gotten no response. Is there anyone on Trader that took part in the testing of these new spouts that could share their results with the rest of us?

Spud

[SandMan]

This is typical for Leader! They often overstate, mis-state or just simply make up data......this was true for the original check valve so I would not expect anything different for the "new" check valve!

[delivron]

I was at PA Maple tour last week. Saw the new check valve and was told by leader they would be available in limited numbers for 2013 season.

[Potters3]

I have used the origimal check valve adaptor for 2 seasons. Last year was a toss up with the weather my vacuum pump didn't shut off for 10 day. 2 years ago my buckets and gravity lines without where done 10 days before my gravity lines on check ball adaptors. Both sets of gravity lines where on the same hill side. They may not extend your year every year but the ones that they do it is worth the investment, in my opinion.

I have already ordered 1000 of the new spouts for this year. I have seen them and looks a lot easier with only 1 piece instead of a spout and then the adaptor. The new ones are a spout with the check valve built in. End of the year cut off.

[spud]

I really want to try them but Leader never gets back to me. I have never been a big fan of Leader or the way they do business.

Spud

[super sappy]

Rumor mill says that they have to build a machine to install the little rubber balls ..2 at a time manually . Id say that will be limited production for sure.My deepthroat source works for leader.-ss

[red maples]

I haven't heard much about these yet. Are they clear? or are they still black? I heard that the blackones are heating up the hole faster causing it close faster makes sense for all south facing taps!!! where the clear ones wouldn't get warm. The other thing I heard is that the Clear spouts are cheaper to make because they don't have the UV protectors in them


There was an open house at FW Webb here in concord NH a few weeks back and they had a lapierre Rep there pushing the clear seasonal spouts. Honestly he never really said a bad thing about the CV's except the the first version where the balls were coming loose. anyway. He was promoting them sayinghow good they were. talked about tubing cleaning and changing the drop every year now just from installing new drops on new tubing its a PITA to start with Changing out new droplines every year just seems crazy to me and so much more work when you already have enough stuff to do when the season starts!!! and it works out to be more expense than just adding on CV adapters or a seasonal Cv of somesort!!! Now he had no scientific data to back up that the lap. seasonal spouts were better worst or different than anything else tested either.

[DrTimPerkins]

Are they clear? or are they still black? I heard that the blackones are heating up the hole faster causing it close faster makes sense for all south facing taps!!! where the clear ones wouldn't get warm.

The new CV (I call it the CV2....no idea what Leader calls it...and I've not seen the advertisement) is a clear polycarbonate, 1-piece spout (which is actually made of 3 parts that are fitted together -- the nosepiece, the body, and the ball). It was co-developed by Leader Evaporator and myself due to the large number of requests from maple producers who wanted a clear CV spout that was one-piece (no stubby). In addition, because of the design, there is absolutely NO way for a ball to get out of the spout into the lines (unless somebody broke it apart with a hammer and dropped it into a line). We tested it at UVM PMRC and a number of maple producers (mainly in Vermont) also tested it during the 2012 season. A few small improvements were made before the product went into production (probably right about now). I've presented the results of our studies a few times (Leader Open House in April 2012, Franklin Co. Maple Conference in October 2012) and will be presenting it at maple meetings I'll be at through the fall/winter (NAMSC in CT Oct 2012, NH Maple Conference Oct 2012, Verona NY Jan 2012, VT Maple Conferences Jan 2012). In short -- the CV2 beat everything else we tested it against in 2012. It will be available in limited supply for the 2013 season, primarily due to the automation required to put the parts together. Before anyone asks, I don't know what the price will be -- that is a business decision of Leader Evaporator Co. I'm not involved in that in any way. Two things do impact the price though: automation and molding precision. Automation to put the things together is costly. Molding precision also affects the price....the CV2 (like the CV) requires higher care in molding since the parts have to be perfect (look at other spouts and you'll sometimes see what is referred to as "flash", which is small bits and pieces of extra plastic along the edges). To get a good seal on the ball, the molding of the CV and CV2 must be done to a higher specification that most maple fittings. This isn't to say that others are doing a bad job....flash just isn't really a critical negative factor for most spouts.

Black spouts vs clear spouts -- black spouts will heat up more during sunny seasons, such as we had in 2012. The advantage is that they will start to flow a little better in the early season and earlier on coldish days. The disadvantage is that they may overheat (like in 2012) and clog up late in the season or when you have really hot sunny seasons (like 2012). In a normal season, there isn't a huge advantage or disadvantage either way. Polycarbonate spouts had a definite advantage this year given the weather during the season.

Clear spouts will not heat up (much) above air temperature, and allow producers to see inside the spout to see if sap is flowing or if there is a leak. That can also be a disadvantage, as during warm spells the trees also put out a small amount of gas, which appears as tiny bubbles that move slowly with the sap stream. THIS IS OK AND IS NORMAL. If you interpret this as a leak, and pound in the spout, you will split the wood and CREATE a leak, which with a clear spout you will see, and then pound in the spouts even more, creating a bigger leak. Altogether, clear spouts are OK, but don't put a hammer to every spout that has a few small bubbles showing. If the bubbles are moving very fast, it is a leak. In that case, gently tap the spout a few times to try to seal it. If the bubbles are moving slowly, they are gas bubbles from the tree....leave it alone and move on.

Lastly, in talking about results of the 2012 season, it is important to know if people are talking about the amount of good tasting syrup they made and got a decent price for, or whether they are also including "buddy" syrup in their totals. We have information on both that we present, and the interpretation is different depending upon how you look at it.

[sjdoyon]

Saw a proto-type this summer, it was a clear one piece CV that you replace each year, requires a little extra slack on your drop lines since you'll be cutting the CV off after the season. We have a NE facing slope on an elevation of nearly 2,000 feet for the top of the sugarbush. We were very pleased with the CV performance this past spring, our last boil was 19 April and when pulling the taps the 21st and 22nd, almost all the holes were still wet. None of the local sugarmakers used the CV and their holes dried up last week of March, early April. We plan to stick with the two piece CVs and look to switch over if economically sound (and available).
UVM published the scientific data on the CV. They also have a couple of finished studies on Tubing age and sap yield.

[schellmaple]

I was wondering if you can adapt a 5/16" Tree Saver Spout to a CV adapter or do you need to install a stubby spout to adapt?

[wiam]

The black versions are made to go on a stubby.

[spud]

I am 100% sold on the new CV2s. Although I have never tried them (YET) I am already convinced they will be the best spout on the market. I thought someone said a while back that the new CV2s would sell for .39 cents each. If this is true then how can someone not afford to use them? I used the smart spout last year and liked them with new tubing. Now that my tubing is used I am being told by a friend that the best he gets using smart spouts on used tubing is .4 gpt. Now .4 gpt is very good production and I would be happy to get that every year although CVs have got .6 gpt with used tubing. The thought of me getting those kinds of numbers makes me want to spend the extra money just to try. Even if the new CV2s bring me to .45 gpt that would give me 325 more gallons of syrup on my 6500 tap operation. That's $11,000 more dollars at bulk price. The new CV2s will cost me $1430.00 more then the smart spout but look at what I (might) get in return. The thought of me losing 10-20,000 dollars because I did not want to use the CV2s would make me sick. I am already averaging 4.5 taps per lateral line and running 27-28 inches in my woods so why not use the spout that has proven to be the best for sap production? The question is will I be able to buy the new CV2s for the up coming season or will I have to wait until 2014 because of limited supplies?

Spud

[Dennis H.]

Here's my 2 cents worth,
If you already have stubbies and use cv's keep using them until you change your drops.
No sense in wasting money just to get the newest thing out there.

I wish that they would make the original cv's in clear.

[red maples]

Here's my 2 cents worth,
If you already have stubbies and use cv's keep using them until you change your drops.
No sense in wasting money just to get the newest thing out there.

I wish that they would make the original cv's in clear.


Yes this makes alot of sense I knew they were coming out with the new ones but I still have a few years on these drops. I am just a mirco producer I do everything myself and it just isn't economical to switch right now.

And yes how much would it take to make the adapters in clear.

[Amber Gold]

Dennis, I agree, use the reducers where you already have stubbies, but use seasonals in new stuff...no sense in throwing out the work you've already done and money spent. This is what I'm doing.

[Jim Brown]

Is it my imagination or is there something NEW AND IMPROVED every year so we are expected to spend more money?
I'm not going to bite this year!
Jim

[sapman]

Is it my imagination or is there something NEW AND IMPROVED every year so we are expected to spend more money?
I'm not going to bite this year!
Jim

I agree with you, Jim. I've felt this way for a few years. But this new CV spout is exactly what I've been hoping for, so I guess I'll be a sucker this year, haha!

[Maplewalnut]

I am not biting this year on the new cv either. I'll stick to my mixture of old style cv/stubby combo and lapierre seasonals. For what it's worth I got better yield from my seasonals anyway last year. I have a couple years to decide if I cut the stubby off altogether. Just can't bring myself to do it this year.

[spud]

There are two things that would appear to be better about the new CV2s verses the old CV. The new ones are clear and a lot of people seem to think clear spouts are better. The other thing is it is now one piece. This one piece spout would have to be better as far as preventing vacuum leaks. The people that tested these spouts are also saying they seated better which tells me less spouts popped out of the trees. In saying all this though I still have not read all the research on these spouts. I look forward to talking to people that have used them.

Spud

[Dennis H.]

One of the comments that you just said was that "The new ones are clear and a lot of people seem to think clear spouts are better".
I guess that means that they are better?

And if I understand the Doc correctly aren't the cv2's two piece. In a posting here he said that They are molded out of 2 pieces with the small ball inserted before they are put together. Now unless they are ultrasoniclly welded together or with some kind of liquid solevent that seal this mechanical connection there can be leaks or seperations just like the original cv's.

Now I haven't held one of these new cv's in my hand and I haven't even seen a good pic of one so I am not sure on alot of the details, I am just making an oberservation with what info that I have gather here.

I do beleive that the new cv's will be the way to go in the future but it will only be after I deplete my stock of stubbies. The one thing I am not crazy about the new cv's is that we will have to cut them off each year. Only after a few years we will have to replace the drops, it kind of sounds like they want us to buy more tubing ever few years??
Think about it, with the cv spouts out there we can now go a lot longer without having to replacing the drops, that means the manufactures are not selling as much tubing so what better way to sell more tubing than make us cut off the spout ever year. Soon enough the drop is too short to reach around the tree, now we need new drops.

Just a thought, Good luck to those that will use the new cv's let us know how they work.

[spud]

The new CV2s are one piece. What Doc was saying is that it is quite the process making these new spouts because they are made up of three parts that all need to be molded together. Because of this process it take more time (and Money) As far as the clear spouts go verses the black go a lot of people seem to like the clear better. That does not mean the clear are better. The good Doc could probably tell us what ones are better though. My guess is the clear would have to be better or the new CV2s would have been black. When you using a seasonal spout that needs to be cut off every year you are only cutting one inch at best of your drop. My drops are 36 inches long so even after ten years they would still be 26 inches long which is still long enough to get around any of my trees. I plan to change my drops every 5 years anyway.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

They are molded out of 2 pieces with the small ball inserted before they are put together. Now unless they are ultrasoniclly welded together or with some kind of liquid solevent that seal this mechanical connection there can be leaks or seperations just like the original cv's.

There are actually three pieces: body, nose, ball. The ball is inserted into the body (from the tip end), and the nosepiece added and pressed together to form the seal. They are press-fit, not welded, however the parting line is located inside the very tip of the spout, so it is fully embedded within the tree after tapping, so there are no chances of vacuum leaks where the pieces fit together. Because the ball is now inserted from the tip end, and because the channel in the body is smaller than the ball, there is no chance of the ball moving out of the spout into the tubing where it might clog a fitting (although with proper tapping procedures the chances of that are quite small).

The color is likely to be pretty much a wash. Black fittings will do better in some seasons, clear will do better in other seasons. If anyone can guess which type of season it'll be before the season starts....they should be buying stocks instead of making syrup. :) If you like the stubby/adapter style spout, there isn't any strong reason to change. Although there is a quantifiable "dirty stubby" effect even when using a CV spout adapter, it is extremely small. If you like to use a totally replaceable spout, the CV2 is a better option. As someone noted, this will mean you cut off 3/4-1" of tubing each year, but you should probably replace drops about every 10-12 yrs anyhow. If you use this strategy, start out with your drops a little longer.

As for the original CV in polycarbonate....not my call. If I had to guess, I'd say not likely. The prices for any fittings are dictated by only a few things. One of them is design (CV is much more complex), which can result in higher machine pressure and slower cycle time (which affects the number of parts that can be made per hour). Cycle time if probably the biggest factor. Slow that down by 10-20% and your because the part is complex (meaning the tolerance for defects/flaws is very low), and your price goes up. Manufacturers overcome this (to some degree) by making HUGE molds that make several parts in one cycle, but those molds are very costly to produce. The material is also a factor due to pressures/temperatures affecting cycle time and workability. Molding polycarbonate is a bit slower and more difficult than nylon, so you have more defects. So all of those together with the fine detail in the original CV and it would push the price higher. Then add in the automation to put in the ball. At a certain point, the price is prohibitive. There were a small number of the original CV adapters made in polycarbonate, but these were for demonstration purposes, and never intended to be sold. Finally, it isn't always possible to take a mold made for use with nylon and make polycarbonate spouts with it -- the "shrinkage" of the material is different. Because of the precision of the CV spouts, this has to be taken into accout when designing the mold. So that could likely mean making a new mold (BIG $$$$) just to make an original CV spout adapter in polycarbonate.

[Mark]

I wish they would make a check valve spout out of stainless. Just pop out the ball and wash. Make a tool to insert new balls.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Just picked up 2,500 of the black CV's tonight and our dealer had a demo clear one there to play with. I was curious as too how hard it would be to insert the drop on by hand and so I tried it. Seems not to be an issue as it went on easy and sealed very well. Looks like a very well thought out design. We will probably stay with the black for now as we have the stubbies but I think we'll try them when it's time to replace or add new.

[DrTimPerkins]

I wish they would make a check valve spout out of stainless. Just pop out the ball and wash. Make a tool to insert new balls.

Highly unlikely (read that as "not gonna happen"). Studies thus far have shown that even with extreme cleaning regimes, used stainless (or used plastic) just doesn't quite match up to the yields of new plastic.

[rchase]

i dont understand that. i know that you can never get the bacteria out of plastic because it is poris. but why wouldnt boiled and cleaned ss spout yield the same as new plastic?

[GeneralStark]

i dont understand that. i know that you can never get the bacteria out of plastic because it is poris. but why wouldnt boiled and cleaned ss spout yield the same as new plastic?

Same reason as plastic. Even stainless steel has micro nooks and crannies that hold those little microorganism buggers.

[Maplewalnut]

Stainless is porous also depending on what grade of stainless and what RA finish you get. Heat and chemicals increase porosity over time, the only way to fix is chemical passivation which is cost preventative.

[DrTimPerkins]

i dont understand that. i know that you can never get the bacteria out of plastic because it is poris. but why wouldnt boiled and cleaned ss spout yield the same as new plastic?

Others have noted, that like most materials, SS is somewhat porous. Yes, if you try real hard you can clean it (remove most of the grime). Yes, if you go to even higher extremes you can sanitize it (kill a good share of the microbes). However it is very very difficult to sterilize materials (including SS). Hospitals and dentists sterilize some tools by using an autoclave (heat and pressure), but in general, for most everything that they can, they just replace it with new materials.

[Mark]

Others have noted, that like most materials, SS is somewhat porous. Yes, if you try real hard you can clean it (remove most of the grime). Yes, if you go to even higher extremes you can sanitize it (kill a good share of the microbes). However it is very very difficult to sterilize materials (including SS). Hospitals and dentists sterilize some tools by using an autoclave (heat and pressure), but in general, for most everything that they can, they just replace it with new materials.

So then it is in our syrup since boiling will not kill it?

[mapleack]

No that dosen't mean there's bacteria in syrup. So long as syrup is proper density and bottled in new clean containers over 185 degrees there's no bacteria. The point with stainless spiles is that it isn't a perfect world and it's almost impossible to sterilize to 100%. Say you boil your stainless taps in a pot and 2 out of every 100 still have a little bacteria left. If you have 1,000 taps that means you've got 20 contaminated taps. Further assume that with new check valves you'd make 0.5 gpt, and the same with new stainless (probably not true). Assume that the 20 bad taps produce 0.3 gpt. At 2.80 per lb you'd gross $15.4 per tap with the new CV and $10.20 best case with the stainless that were contaminated. That's at least a $100 loss, which would've paid for 300 check valves. Then consider what your time is worth messing around trying to boil stainless taps, and the fact that clean stainless are not going to perform as well as CV's period. I've been down this road personally, using straight stainless that were autoclaved. Not many people have one of those! I've switched to CV's, and I can tell the difference. This reminds me that I need to put those stainless spiles up for sale.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

[where are you buying 100 check valves for $30.00?

[mapleack]

[where are you buying 100 check valves for $30.00?
I was simplifying the math. The newer ones are 39 cents each, 300 would be $117. Close enough.

[DrTimPerkins]

So then it is in our syrup since boiling will not kill it?

No, but the point is that simple boiling for a few minutes probably won't kill the microorganisms on the SS spouts (which is also why they don't simply boil surgical or dental tools). For one thing, SS has some mass. You put a bunch of them in a pot and you have a rather large mass. It takes a long time for all of that mass to come up to boiling temperature. Secondly, in an evaporator, the residence time is very very long, and each individual sugar molecule spends a long time in the evaporator, and has very little mass. Further, the temperatures get above the boiling point of water.

There is at least one producer around here who compared SS spouts and CV spout adapters. He used the following cleaning procedure for his SS spouts.
Removed from woods in spring
- Allowd them to air-dry over summer
- Bore brushed with drill to remove dried on material
- Rinsed multiple times
- Sonicated (using a commercial ultrasonic cleaner) in hot water
- Rinsed
- Baked 350-400°F until completely dry
- Bagged with nitrile gloves
Even with all that work, he still found a 12% increase with CV spouts (aproximately a $2.30 net profit per tap using CVs). It's unlikely most people would go to that level of trying to clean.

[twobears1224]

where are you guys coming up with the 0.39 cent price on the new check valves?? i talked to my leader dealer last night and he says there not even priced yet. i had one in my hands back in april i think it was and i can,t get a firm price.i,am really intrested in them but i don,t wanta commit to them not knowing how much they are.in my opinion they need to be in the same price range as the old check valve.
my dad has 1700 taps all on the stubby spouts with old style check valves.he,s made alot more sap with them but they do have there faults..the balls get sucked out and end up in the fitting on the mainline plugging it and the spouts pull out of the check valves letting the sap run on the ground and losing vaccume and lost sap.we,ve found stuck closed balls too.the new vales should solve most of that if not all of it.

[mapleack]

where are you guys coming up with the 0.39 cent price on the new check valves?? . Sorry, I wasn't talking about the CV2's , that's the price for the current ones Leader has for sale, as opposed to the first generation ones.

[DrTimPerkins]

Current price of the original CV spout adapter is $0.35
http://www.leaderevaporator.com/p-58-leader-check-valve-spout-adapter.aspx

[sapman]

Last time I talked to Leader, which was last week, they said $.39 max for the cv2, might be even less. Hopefully that wasn't just sales talk.

[danno]

So, with the CV2, what's the plan for your dropline over the summer? Plug the CV2 into your T fitting, then replace the CV2 with a new one at the time of following years tapping? I wouldn't pull the CV2 at the end of the season and leave the drop line open all summer. Did that once, never again.

[GeneralStark]

So, with the CV2, what's the plan for your dropline over the summer? Plug the CV2 into your T fitting, then replace the CV2 with a new one at the time of following years tapping? I wouldn't pull the CV2 at the end of the season and leave the drop line open all summer. Did that once, never again.

You could do as you mention, or use a 5/16" T Plug as most do that use seasonal spouts with no stubby.

[sapman]

[QUOTE=danno;194094]So, with the CV2, what's the plan for your dropline over the summer? Plug the CV2 into your T fitting, then replace the CV2 with a new one at the time of following years tapping? I wouldn't pull the CV2 at the end of the season and leave the drop line open all summer. Did that once, never agUOTE]

I guess the old cup tees work. I'm planning to replace the whole drop this year so going with new tees, too. Seems like lots of my spouts pop off during the off season .

[rchase]

they make a "three stage tee" that the drop line will plug right into.

[twobears1224]

last spring when i saw the new check valve i tryed every T-fitting my dealer had and the check valve didn,t fit in any of them.. so,i sit here wondering what we do in the off season.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

last spring when i saw the new check valve i tryed every T-fitting my dealer had and the check valve didn,t fit in any of them.. so,i sit here wondering what we do in the off season.

At the end of season, when you pull spouts, cut the new check valve/spout off. put the open end of the drop line on the tee. When you tap next season (or just before tapping) put the new check valve spout on the drop line.

[Sage Family Maple]

Leader has also designed a new Tee and End Ring. At the end of the season you would cut the new CV Spout off and plug the drop line tubing on the Tee or End Ring. The new Tee and End Ring will also work with the stubby spout.

[spud]

I talked to Leader the other day and they said the new CV2s will sell for .40 cents. The new CV2s will fit into the cup tees. Leader is saying you should expect around 4 more gallons of sap per tap hole using the CV2s. There were 10,000-12,000 tested last year and although it was a bad year they were impressed with how they worked. In early tapping they held well into the tree without popping out is what they are saying.

Spud

[GeneralStark]

When I was at Leader last week I inquired about the availability of the new CV2 for this season and the response was not a definite no, but it sounds like if you don't have an order in for them you probably won't get them this season. They are still figuring out how to put them together...by hand.

[twobears1224]

i was at my dealers saturday and he had new tee's that fit the new checkvalves.we also put flex tubing on the check valve to see how hard it went on and came off..went on easy and wouldn,t come off not matter how hard i pulled.i only had it on about a 1/4 inch..just past a ridge thats on it.