H2O vs LaPierre

[maple rich]

I'm upgrading to a new 2 post 1200 gph membrane machine from a single post LaPierre unit. Does anyone have first hand experience in the differences and benefits of LaPierre versus H20 Innovations 2 post machine. H2O looks like a nice machine and advertises 45 minutes to reach cleaning temp shut off. Does this mean their pumps are somewhat oversized and I'm going to pay higher electric bills for regular RO operation? H2O also seems to provide the membranes for CDL machines. Any comments on which machine is going to require less long term maintenance?

[halfast tapper]

I've looked at the h20 machines and they are ok, but I think the quality is much better with the lapierre machine. H20 machines are designed for primarily water, they just got into the maple industry. I also don't trust their gallons per hour. They are going by what their machines will produce using water not sap, so their rating is higher per hour than it really does. If you are looking to upgrade, I have a friend that is selling his 2 post unit that is in great shape , it is also had all the modifications to expand to 3 or 4 posts. If you want his number message me and I will get it to you.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I've looked at the h20 machines and they are ok, but I think the quality is much better with the lapierre machine. H20 machines are designed for primarily water, they just got into the maple industry. I also don't trust their gallons per hour. They are going by what their machines will produce using water not sap, so their rating is higher per hour than it really does. If you are looking to upgrade, I have a friend that is selling his 2 post unit that is in great shape , it is also had all the modifications to expand to 3 or 4 posts. If you want his number message me and I will get it to you.

What are you talking about...... You may need to do a little research before you post. If their machines are designed primarily for water why would they have a membrane that CDL uses as well? Plus all machines are rated for water on the gallons per hour.

I would take a good look at H20 for sure, they seem to make as good a machine as anyone else. If you look at the components they are basically all the same. The reason H20 heat up faster is that they run the high pressure pump at very low pressure during the cleaning. Now one of the big differences is the high pressure pump itself it is a much bigger pump than anyone else uses.

I know the dealer down in Mass and he just switched over to one, nice looking machine. Give him a call and talk to him. Joe Boisvert @ 1-413-320-2216. The price difference between the two is staggering.

Thad

[halfast tapper]

I did not mean they are primarily for water, I meant that the comany has been mainly in the water business and I said that the company just got into the maple market. Also a ro that does water is rated differently than for sap. The rep even told us that.

[spud]

I know of four people that have all bought H2O after owning the other brands. All four people said they would never own anything other then an H2O RO. They all said the H2O RO is a far better machine and easy to use and clean. A friend of mine last season said he was running 1300 gallons per hour on his 1200. He said he has never seen anything like it and the sap was of poor quality. No other dealers are bashing H2O ROs because they out performing everything on the market and the price is thousands less. The H2O membrane is also in a class of their own. I am looking to buy an RO and have been asking a lot of questions to people that own the H2O who have also owned the other brands. It's not to often when a person can buy the best for thousands less in something but this might be one of those times. The best thing to do is ask people in your area that owns one of these machines. If there is anyone here on Trader that owns a H2O RO please let us know what you think. This helps the rest of us make our decision on what to buy. Thanks in advance.

Spud

[lastwoodsman]

Do they have a website or are their maple vendors that someone could list. I am new to ro's and this brand.
Woodsman

[mapleack]

http://maple.h2oinnovation.com/

[maplemaker]

I have owned a 600 gph for 4 years and never had a problem with my machine and it will do more than 600 gph.I have been to their factory and its huge they make some gigantic ros.I have never ran any other brand of ro but h2o.Very easy to operate and much cheaper.

[maple rich]

So what are folks able to concentrate to in a single pass with an H2O? If you start at 2% sap what is the highest you would feel comfortable concentrating to in a single pass without plugging the membrane and at what flow. I currently have a single post LaPierre with an NF 270 membrane and can get to 10% in a single pass with about 100gph of concentrate at 400psi. My plan is to go to 20% at 80gph in a single pass with 2 posts. WH Supply says its fine to run H2O at 500-600 psi and the membranes won't get damaged. I'd like to run my membranes for at least 3 years without feeling like they are too slow and in need of replacement. Any thoughts?

[Thad Blaisdell]

First of all Good luck on going to 20% single pass. As you go higher it gets harder to do. The H20 membranes are made to run withstand higher pressures, or so I am told. You will be better off doing 2 passes, I have 3 posts I go to 10% then to 20%. You will get more flow this way, easier on machine and membranes.

[Brian Ryther]

"easier on machine and membranes", Hard on the syrup grade. This take time and heats up the sap. Things that bacateria need to grow = Time and temperature. There is little energy savings by going over 15%. Single pass to 15% and process it imediatly. The lighter the syrup grade the more it is worth, and the longer you can keep it in table grade the more $ the syrup is worth.

[DrTimPerkins]

So what are folks able to concentrate to in a single pass with an H2O? If you start at 2% sap what is the highest you would feel comfortable concentrating to in a single pass without plugging the membrane and at what flow.

In general, a plain-Jane RO will do about 4.5-4.7X (max) the starting Brix concentration in a single pass. To do anything higher, you need to go to higher pressures (bigger pump), or multiple passes, or use multiple posts.

[spud]

I went to a H2O seminar last fall and they said the best thing to do with their membranes is to recirculate the sap. Their saying it is better on the machine and membranes to run 10% and then run that back into raw sap. I know a lot of people that run to 10% and then do a second pass. I am looking to buy an RO just to recirculate my sap and limit the amount of times the big sap truck has to come to the house. If I could turn 6000 gallons into 1500 gallons then a smaller truck could haul my sap away and not tear up my driveway.

Spud

[Thad Blaisdell]

There is a huge debate on this. I personally am against it for this one reason. If you put it into a seperate tank you can easily walk away and it will shut off. Recirculating it into the same tank puts you at risk of going ttoo high on the conc and ruining your membranes. Another point being debated on this is the bacteria. I dont know but I am against the recirc method.

[PATheron]

Rich- I do it like Thad does. I know the big guys in vermont like to single pass to 20%. The way they do it is they will run a lot of posts. The people that I know have six posts or more. The people that have like three only go to 12%. Ive found with my stuff pinching down to high numbers slows the machines down and clogs them up quicker etc. What I do is take three two post machines and take my raw sap and single pass it all into another tank. If it is 2% itll come out of each machine 6% open flow. Very little pressure and a lot of concentrate per minute. With all three machines itll do 3000 gallons per hour like that. Then I take the machines and feed them with the tank of 6% and itll come out 15% at a rate that will match what Im runing my evaporator at and then I start boiling. Ill get say 3 gpm off of each machine more or less I think. That works good for me. So If I have six thousand gallons I only have to single pass it two hours then send it to the headtank and start the evaporator. I think to single pass to high concentrate you need many posts in a row on each machine. Then your going to beat up the last post too that way. Nice if you did do that if you had it valved so you could reverse how it flows though the posts to make it easier on the last one. Hope thats of some help. Theron

[spud]

Thad, Do you think it would be good for me to recirculate only to a certain percent? How long will 10-15% sap sit in my tank? I want to try to have the truck come just one time a day but I want my sap to be at the highest quality. Even on a day when I get 10,000 gallons of sap I was hoping to only have to truck no more then 3000 gallons because that's what the big truck holds. If I run to just 8% I am taking out 75% of the water and that in itself would be great. I was hoping to buy a new 600 and just run it throughout the day and then the truck can pick up at about 6:00 pm. Whatever sap comes in after that will get run through the RO the next day.

Spud

[PATheron]

Spud- If you get a 600 gph ro and just recirc it back into the tank youll get rid of 300 gph of water hour after hour. Thats what I used to do when thats all I had. By recircing open flow like that( make the concentrate and perm flow gages look the same) Itll go a long time like that without clogging up and youll never get the batch to a very high number that way with that much sap. You probly wont even work it down to the volume you want to be honest. Youll get rid of a lot of it though. Theron

[delivron]

If you are considering purchasing products from H20 Innovations I would strongly urge you to examine their financial reports posted on their web site.
They trade on the Toronto and Paris exchanges their stock value would be considered as "Penny Stocks". Commutatively they have lost 9,000,000 over the last 12 months and have lost in excess of 25,000,000 over since 2007. Sales are in excess of 110,000,000 sales since 2007. I don't know many companies that can continue to incur these kinds of losses over a long period of time. I would urge you to make you own conclusions as to the health of H20.

You can form your own opinions by doing your own research at http://www.h2oinnovation.com/financial_reports_and_webcasts.aspx

[spud]

Spud- If you get a 600 gph ro and just recirc it back into the tank youll get rid of 300 gph of water hour after hour. Thats what I used to do when thats all I had. By recircing open flow like that( make the concentrate and perm flow gages look the same) Itll go a long time like that without clogging up and youll never get the batch to a very high number that way with that much sap. You probly wont even work it down to the volume you want to be honest. Youll get rid of a lot of it though. Theron

Thank you for the information. If I could get 50-75% of the water out I would be very happy.

Spud

[Thad Blaisdell]

Spud, any ro'ing is going to help, I do not really have an opinion either way, I just know how I chose to go. I know bacteria is in play either way.

Theron, I believe it is the first post that takes the brunt of the force, not the last, but I do not know for sure.

[PATheron]

Spud- I was thinking about your setup today and this is my thought. If all you can afford is a 600 do that and if you can afford more try to do that instead. This is why I think that. If you freeflow it itll do 300gph per hour and put like 4 or 5% in the batch. Thats going to be the least destructive of the syrup color for sure. If you pinch it to 8% youll get rid of 450 per hour till it slows down but with that high going into it all day I think itll make dark syrup for the guy. If you had a 9 or 1200 you could freeflow it getting more water out per hour with low concentrate going into the batch and it wont make so much bacteria. My experiance has been more ro always better. A 6000 tanker trailer looks real daunting to a 600 ro at least it did to me. If you ever decide to do your own syrup youll already have the ro if you have any ideas of doing that. Last year I had basically 3000 gph or ro for around 4700 taps and it worked great and I loved it. I think I could run a lot of taps with that setup. I would also suggest whatever you do buy the 500 dollar lapierre blue sap filter you set on the floor. Im cheap and I bought one for every ro and it made them hold up so much better without slowing down through the season. Theron

[spud]

Theron, Thanks for the advise. What I am hoping for is a 600 expandable and then turn it to a 1200 after the first season. The thought has always been if I could ship my sap at 5-8% this would save on the truck coming to the house so often. This would also prevent the truck from tearing up my 1/2 mile long driveway. One question I have though is on day's where I might only get 3-4000 gallons of sap how high of sugar should I run my sap. I am being told that high sugar sap will spoil faster due to bacteria. On good days where I get 8-10,000 gallons I will be lucky to get my sap to 5% when I recirculate. I just want to make sure that everything I ship out is of top quality all the time. The reason I may not be able to buy an RO for the up-coming season is because I am buying 60 acres of land that borders my property. This new land has 2500-3000 taps on it and we felt this is where we needed to put our money. We have 7 kids and are in hopes that some might want to build homes close buy when they get older. It's not everyday you can buy a property that borders your own but ROs will always be for sale. Two years from now I will be at 9000+ taps and then the 1200 RO would be needed far more for recirculating. If only I made $13,000 more last year in selling sap I would not be in this pickle right now. A couple years from now I will be all set. Thank for all advise.

Spud

[mapleack]

If you are considering purchasing products from H20 Innovations I would strongly urge you to examine their financial reports posted on their web site.
They trade on the Toronto and Paris exchanges their stock value would be considered as "Penny Stocks". Commutatively they have lost 9,000,000 over the last 12 months and have lost in excess of 25,000,000 over since 2007. Sales are in excess of 110,000,000 sales since 2007. I don't know many companies that can continue to incur these kinds of losses over a long period of time. I would urge you to make you own conclusions as to the health of H20.

You can form your own opinions by doing your own research at http://www.h2oinnovation.com/financial_reports_and_webcasts.aspx

First, let me say I own a Lapierre Ro, and love it. However, I looked at H20's financials, albeit quickly, and do not draw the same conclusions as you claim. It appears that they are a growing company showing strong growth and income. For the most part the losses that you cite appear to be "good will impairment" charges, which are basically writedowns re-valuing assets in order to claim a loss for tax purposes. My quick look does not show a failing company as you'd allude. I don't belive I would have any qualms about buying an H20 machine. Not to start a p*ssing match, but from looking at other posts I suspect that you Mr Delivron are a Lapierre dealer? If I'm right I believe that if you're going to make a post questioning the financial health of a competitor that it would be in your best interests and those of all trader members if you would make clear your bias due to affiliation so as to allow people to draw accurate conclusions. Please let me know if I'm wrong and I'll gladly edit the last portion of this post.

[PATheron]

Spud- If you can buy the land do that for sure. Neighbor land only comes up once in a while and I think land is the single best thing anybody can own. Pay the trucking till you can affore the ro. Once you get and ro though your correct in worrying about getting the percent to high before you truck it. Concentrate needs to be boiled soon. Id try to not get the batch much over 5% unnless its going to be boiled real soon. On your heavy run days it wont be a problem becouse itll take quite a while to get it over 5% if you just recirc it and dont pinch it down. Probly any of the ros will be fine. Ive just found that filtering the sap before you ro it real good is the name of the game to keeping the ros working the best. When I just used the filters on the machine it didnt really cut it for me and then when I bought the expensive lapierre filters it made a huge difference. If a guy could hang a filter and let the sap dump through it that would probly help a lot but I dont think it would do what the big filter you set on the floor does in my opinion. Theron

[spud]

Theron- I have seen those filters in operation and many swear by them. I do plan on buying one as soon as I get my RO. Thanks

Spud

[spud]

If you are considering purchasing products from H20 Innovations I would strongly urge you to examine their financial reports posted on their web site.
They trade on the Toronto and Paris exchanges their stock value would be considered as "Penny Stocks". Commutatively they have lost 9,000,000 over the last 12 months and have lost in excess of 25,000,000 over since 2007. Sales are in excess of 110,000,000 sales since 2007. I don't know many companies that can continue to incur these kinds of losses over a long period of time. I would urge you to make you own conclusions as to the health of H20.

I have not read the reports yet but plan to. If this company has lost that much money they ought to move to America:lol: We are in a recession right now and everyone is losing money. The only company's that have money are the ones that have been bailed out with my money. This Is why I can't afford an RO right now. I was told by an H2o rep that they will be raising their prices in a year or two. Right now they are trying to flood the market with their ROs so everyone will see they are in a class of their own. Now if thats all true then that is a very good business plan. Now if H2o was suffering real bad then that would cause me to be concerned. Then I would have to wonder if parts in the future will be available. It's a crap shoot and I still have some thinking to do. Thank you for this info.

Spud

You can form your own opinions by doing your own research at http://www.h2oinnovation.com/financial_reports_and_webcasts.aspx[/QUOTE]

[Amber Gold]

Here's my 2 cents to throw into the mix. At the sugarhouse, I have a single sap storage tank and a small feed tank to feed the evap. I recirc. sap to 4-6% between the sap tank and the RO, then pinch it down to 12-15% when sending it to the feed tank with no issues on syrup quality.

Buy a 600 (or 1200) and start it when sap starts to run. It should keep up with your sap flow without shutting down. Like Theron said, match the conc./perm. flows so you're removing half the water...doing this the sap temp. increase is marginal, pressures are low (I run mine at 250 psi), and your machine's hardly working. Also, sap coming into the tank will help keep things cooler. When you come to pick the sap up, pinch it down to the 12-15% (or whatever you can get) and dump it directly into your truck tank. It'll be super conc. from the time it's in the truck tank to when he processes it, which should be a pretty short time. Also, this method will be easy on the membranes and you should be able to set it, and almost forget it for the day while it's concentrating...maybe stop by mid-day and do a membrane rinse to freshen things up.

For what it's worth, I know a producer who single passes to 10% all day long into a concentrate tank, boils it at night, and generally makes a wide range of grades.

[spud]

Thanks Josh for the info.

Spud

[twofer]

Are there any dealers outside of WH Supply? It would be nice if there was one that was a little bit closer to MI.

[spud]

You could call WHSupply and ask them. I don't know of any others around.

Spud

[syrupkid]

I have to agree with mapleack. Looking at H2O's financials they are showing strong growth, and I wouldn't be afraid to buy a ro from them because I am worried they will go belly up and not be able to honnor the warranty. In reply to your assumption that Andy Delivron is a Lapierre dealer, he is not, he works for them. I have personally dealt with him when Lapierre wrecked the coupling on the end of my membrane when it was sent in to be cleaned and he was of no help. We finally got the problem resolved when I contacted Carl Lapierre himself.