if i buy new or used ro

[maple36]

if i buy new or used ro what else do i need for equipment for it do i need tanks etc any info would be helpful looking more towards used and does anybody know of anyplaces on internet or elsewhere to buy used ro`s

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I purchased 2 used RO's from Craigslist. They are also advertized in the classified section here and on Sugarbush info.
As far as additional equipment, you will need a permeate tank at least as big as the rated capacity of your RO (a 600 gph RO requires 600 gallons of permeate to properly rinse the membrane). More storage is better. Do you plan to do one pass and to the head tank or will you recirculate to get a higher concentration? If recirculating you may need a tank for the "intermediate" concentrate or you can recirculate back into your original holding tank. You will also need lots of pipe and valves....

[maple36]

hi thanks for the reponse um not sure i would like cut down on my boilling time so i guess i would like to get it around 10 to 20 percent so i guess i would need another tank too right. so that would be two two tank or three. do you have an ro if so could i stop and check out your set up? i live in harrisville but travel to ogdensburg everyday to work.

[maple flats]

You might also want to get a smaller evaporator someday. A 6x16 is too big for 5500 taps when you concentrate, especially to 15 or 20%. Consider this: If you get 2 gal/tap at 2% on a decent day, that is 1100 gal of sap. Concentrate it to 10% and you only have 220 gal, to 20% you have 110 gal. 15% you have 165. What does your rig boil away in an hour? Can you even run the burner a whole hour? Being oil fired you can shut off instantly (essentially) but that is rather extreme. Until you get to boiling at least 2 hrs, you might like it the way the evaporating goes better if you concentrate to 8%. As you gain taps, start concentrating higher to hold between 2-3 hrs. You could rather easily run 5500 taps on a 3x10 up to 4x12, while many do it on a smaller rig if they concentrate accordingly.
You can however start with the 6x16 and look for smaller. Unfortunately, smaller ones cost more (used ones that is) because with RO's being used, not many are looking for a 6x16.
One thing to consider with the high concentrations, how fast can you handle the syrup coming off it. Compare with your currant draw with 2% sap, 10% will be 5x that and 20% will be 10x that. Can you take care of it that fast?

[Maplewalnut]

Keep in mind the RO while a significant cost is only part of the system. You will need a permeate tank as Thompsons has said and you will be surprised how fast the wallet emptys when buying pipe, valves, valve panel, wash tank cleaner, detergents, membranes, Ph strips or meter, pre filters, RO room, portable heater, floor drains etc. I am sure I forgot something....Enjoy!

[500592]

Hey maple flats you forgot a couple of zeros

[spencer11]

where? every number seems acurate

[maple flats]

I'll correct it in the quote. You are correct but I missed 1 zero not 2. 5500 taps x 2 gal/ = 11000. My bad. mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

You might also want to get a smaller evaporator someday. A 6x16 is too big for 5500 taps when you concentrate, especially to 15 or 20%. Consider this: If you get 2 gal/tap at 2% on a decent day, that is 11000 gal of sap. Concentrate it to 10% and you only have 2200 gal, to 20% you have 1100 gal. 15% you have 1650. What does your rig boil away in an hour? Can you even run the burner a whole hour? Being oil fired you can shut off instantly (essentially) but that is rather extreme. Until you get to boiling at least 2 hrs, you might like it the way the evaporating goes better if you concentrate to 8%. As you gain taps, start concentrating higher to hold between 2-3 hrs. You could rather easily run 5500 taps on a 3x10 up to 4x12, while many do it on a smaller rig if they concentrate accordingly.
You can however start with the 6x16 and look for smaller. Unfortunately, smaller ones cost more (used ones that is) because with RO's being used, not many are looking for a 6x16.
One thing to consider with the high concentrations, how fast can you handle the syrup coming off it. Compare with your currant draw with 2% sap, 10% will be 5x that and 20% will be 10x that. Can you take care of it that fast?

[spud]

I would agree with a lot of what Maple Flats is saying. Although I would keep the 6x16 rig even if it means only boiling for 1-2 hours a day. The money is made in the woods and the less time you spend in the woods the less money your going to make. Like Maple Flats said in a past post not many people are looking to buy a 6x16 so the value of this size rig is low compared to smaller rigs. If you already have the big rig why not use it. If you get talked into a smaller rig like a 3x10 or 4x12 then you will be spending more money to get your operation set up. This means it will take longer to pay back. You will also be boiling your 20% sap for 5-9 hours instead of 1-2 hours. The big 6x16 with steamaway will boil 550 GPH allowing you much more time in the woods looking for leaks. You do have to be ready for about 125 gallons of syrup an hour. Another thing to consider is with the big rig you may find yourself buying some sap from people in town. Once you have your 5500 taps up and going you will want another 5500 to go with it.

Spud

[maple36]

it processes about 500 gallons of sap an hour so i would prolly be better at eight %

[maple36]

so spud
should i be ok going with 600 ro for now or bigger i have 3500 this year and i would prolly go to 4500 following year or more if all goes well

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Maple36, I PM'd you.

[spud]

so spud
should i be ok going with 600 ro for now or bigger i have 3500 this year and i would prolly go to 4500 following year or more if all goes well

Maple 36,

If a 600 RO is all you can afford for now while just getting started then yes a 600 will do. Right now a brand new H2O 600 expandable sells for $12,995. For the first year you could recirculate your sap all day and then boil at night for a few hours. By boiling at that time you might have 8% sap or you could have 20% it all depends on how much sap came in from the woods that day. If you only get 5000 gallons of sap one day then by the end of the day or the next morning you would be 15% or better. The higher the sugar the less it will cost you in oil. After the first season you then could add another membrane turning your 600 into a 1200 GPH. That will cost you about $6500.00 but by that time you have already made some money. There are many sugar maker's that spend tons of money buying all the new shinny equipment but most are always behind the 8 ball. These are the guy's that are saying ( I can't wait to get my syrup check so I can give it all to bank ). If you build your sugaring operation at a pace you can afford then you will never be behind the 8 ball. I'm sure you heard the story about the daddy bull and the little bull. One day the daddy bull and the little bull were standing at the top of a hill looking down at the cows. The little bull full of excitement say's Hey dad lets run down the hill and make love to one of those cows. The daddy bull looks at the little bull and smiles. Then the daddy bull say's to the baby bull I have a better idea. Why don't we WALK down the hill and make love to ALL the cows instead. If you build your operation at a pace that works for you then you will be the Daddy bull of the sugaring world. If you run out and buy all shinny new equipment and put yourself into high debt then you will always be the baby bull. A person with 5500 taps and no debt is far better off then the person with 55,000 taps and giving his whole check to his local maple dealer.

Spud

[whalems]

I have never used an RO but my question is. What is the cost of electric to operate? hear how you recirculate to get higher sugar content to save oil/wood. but is there a significant cost in electric to operate the RO?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I spend about $200 extra during March and April for the additional needs of my sugaring operation. That is for running the lights, air bubbler, a couple of pumps, the filter press and two 600gph RO's. I made 2200 gallons of syrup in 2011. If 90% of the electric cost was for the RO's, that is $360. I saved way more than that in just my boiling time to say nothing about the value of the fuel (wood) and the time involved cutting it.

[maple flats]

Another RO to consider is by Ray Gingerich. He makes a 500 gph for under $5000. I have a 250 of his in gas powered and it worked flawlessly. He also makes electric driven ones. I am now putting utility power into the sugarhouse so I think I'll likely convert mine to electric or maybe sell it and buy an electric one. I have not yet decided. I might stay gas powered 1 more year than I'll need a faster one and I would the sell the 250 and buy a 500 in electric.

[spud]

What do you get for sugar in the first pass on Ray's machine. I thought Ray's was similar to water guy's ROs and they only give you 5% on first pass. If Ray's can give you 12-15% on first pass then $5000.00 would be a great deal.

Spud

[spud]

[QUOTE=whalems;191625] How do you recirculate to get higher sugar content to save oil/wood?

A lot of people will run their RO concentrate into a separate tank and then either boil that sap or make a second pass threw the RO for higher sugar content. The other way of doing it is to run your concentrate right back into your sap tank with your raw sap. As time goes on your sap will increase in sugar content and you can boil whenever you would like. This way you don't have to buy a second tank for concentrate. Although there are several brands of ROs on the market more and more owners are using the H2O membranes because they are supposed to be the best on the market. I went to a H2O seminar last fall and they said recirculating your sap is better on the membrane and they would advise it over making a second pass with 8-15% sap.

Spud

[maple flats]

I went from 2% sap to 8% concentrate on first pass. I only went higher once, recirculating from concentrate tank while I was doing something else, by running the RO to remove half of the remaining water. At 18% sugar (calculated on starting volume at 8% vs ending volume in concentrate tank, I did not test this one) I had to do a complete rinse because the flow slowed to about 100 gph rate. This seemed to happen somewhere between 17 and 18%. The rinse cycle took about 20 minutes and the rate was back to about 250 gph. I did not concentrate further nor did I go above 8-9% again in 2012, my 1st year on the RO.

[maple flats]

Ray's will not give 15% on 1st pass, and going above 8% slows the flow. I liked it best when I removed 75% of the water in 1 pass. This next season I may run 2x because I'm adding another 4-600 more taps (guesstimate). I'm thinking likely going 2nd pass and stop at about 12% concentrate. Time will tell.

[spud]

So could you get around 15-16% on second pass and keep close to 250 GPH? If you ran your 8% sap into your raw sap would your RO run second pass better and give you more GPH? Does Ray sell bigger units? What size is your membrane? I know Ray is a real cracker jack when it comes to ROs and Vacuum pumps. Thanks.

Spud

[500592]

How does rays ros gat it to 8%on the first pass and still maintain flows when they have no recirc like commercial ros?

[maple flats]

I set it for 1/4 ratio. In one pass it gave me between 1-1.25 gpm concentrate and 2.75-3.25 gpm permeate. The most common numbers were about 1.1 gal concentrate and 3.0 gal permeate / minute. The combined average was usually between 240 and 260 gph, one psass.
I don't know if his would give 15-16% in 2 passes, the only time I recirculated, after 1st pass removing 75% of the water (going to 8%), I just set it to continuous recirculate, removing about 50% of the water as it worked. I was drawing from one end and returning to the other end of my concentrate tank. I was doing other things at the same time and was only checking the gauges every several minutes. The membranes eventually slowed severely as I reached a guestimated 18% based on starting volume at 8% and ending volume of concentrate.
Such questions might better be run past Ray, he routinely concentrates to 15%, I don't.