Quick question, new or used and why?

[Daves Maple Farm]

If I bought a small evaporator new and decided to up grade in two years, any guess as to how much in value it would loose from new. I figure about half. Any ideas, and thanks.
Dave

[Daves Maple Farm]

Wow..not that bad, just fumble fingers on keyboard today! Sorry!

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I don't think it would lose half. There is a big demand in todays market for the smaller evaporators.

[Thad Blaisdell]

If you think you are going to upgrade in 2 years why not buy the bigger one now? Or buy a good used one now and most likely be able to sell for about what you payed for it.

[Daves Maple Farm]

Both replys well taken. Thought maybe a new or fairly new smaller one would be worth a bit more used if I opt out. What I see on here ist that most larger used run about 3000. Being new to this I am trying to "tip toe" trough the various options. Looks like not too many in my area have nice used units for sale. Hate to buy someone elses problems. Thinking of driving up and looking at A&A in Ulysses Pa. About 2.5 hrs one way, but thats ok.

[motowbrowne]

How small are you talking about? I think a 2x6 would hold value well, but I'd stay away from anything larger. Also, I think you'd probably only lose 25% or so if you were selling something that was brand new 2 years ago. A&A seems like a good way to go, certainly nice prices. Rigs that are between the beginner (2x6, 2x8) size and the big rigs (5x14 etc.) are kind of hard to come by right now, or so it would seem. Everyone with a 2x6 is trying to go bigger and with everyone getting an RO, even guys with thousands of taps are looking at 3x10s and 3x12s. Seems like anything between a 30x8 and a 3x13 is gonna stay in demand for the foreseeable future. Welcome to Mapletrader, how many taps are you looking at starting with?

[Daves Maple Farm]

Last year we had 24 taps, buckets,open kettle, over a gas fire, outside...fun but brutal! This year we would like to go about 100 +/_, inside, with the tools to make it work! If my Sons here, jump in if I am wrong.

[jcyphert]

Last year we had 24 taps, buckets,open kettle, over a gas fire, outside...fun but brutal! This year we would like to go about 100 +/_, inside, with the tools to make it work! If my Sons here, jump in if I am wrong.

Brutal is putting it mild (open kettle).
Looking to upgrade to 124 taps. 100 on line, 24 buckets.

[Daves Maple Farm]

And I am retired? LOL

[motowbrowne]

I reread my last post and wanted to clarify. When I said that i would recommend staying away from larger stuff, in reference to when you said that larger used rigs could be found in the 3000 dollar range, I thought you might be referring to the occasional older soldered really big evaporators that can sometimes be found in that price range. But based on the size you are talking about, I would guess that's probably not what you were talking about. I guess what you need to consider is how many taps you want to think about tapping in the next few years, and how long you want to spend boiling. Figure you put out 124 taps next year and bought yourself a 2x6 that can do 40gph of evaporation. That would mean on a day when you got a gallon of sap per tap, you'd spend about 3 hours boiling (realistically more like four with startup/shutdown). That's pretty doable. If, however, you like your new hobby and end up putting out 250 taps the following year, now your talking 6-7hrs per day of boiling. Double again, and you're gonna want a bigger evaporator. So, you have to balance the initial cost of your evaporator with how many taps you foresee putting in, as well as the hassle of switching to a bigger rig. We installed a new (to us) 2x10 this year, and I definitely don't want to do that again anytime real soon. Hauling it, installing, leveling, bricking/insulating, installing the stack, etc. turns out to be a lot of work. I guess the real question is, how big do you want to get? Never gonna get bigger than 250 taps? 2x6 should be great. Wanna stick with the small evaporator and get an RO? You could probably run 750 taps on that same 2x6. Wanna start with 150, end with 750 and don't want to bust the bank on an RO? get a 30"x8' or bigger from A&A. You won't spend much time boiling with 125 taps, but if you're like me, you'll be dreaming of more taps pretty soon. Hope that helps.

[jcyphert]

I'm sure it's on the forum somewhere... how much would you expect to spend on a smaller RO? Also, is anyone building their own vacuum system. What I'm picturing in my head seems way cheaper than what some are paying. Sorry if I'm hijacking my fathers thread.

[Daves Maple Farm]

WOW Motowbrowne...great info. I keep looking at A&A`s 2x8. This would give us just a bit of breather room. Next issue is would the wood consumption mean every 5 min we put another log on the fire! I have free gas, but dont see any natural gas fired units, and may be pretty hard on the gas well, which would lead to uncontrolable HOT fire from wife if we ran out...lol. Last year we put a burner fron an old hotwater tank under the kettle and fired for around 12 hours straight. Just kept adding sap until 55 gal drum was empty!

[motowbrowne]

well, if you're both going to be working on it, it seems fitting that you're both on here now. I'm not really the right guy to answer questions about vacuum or RO, but I can say that there are plenty of people building their own ROs and putting together their own vacuum systems. That does seem to be the trick in this game is to keep your costs down. Still, though, although the added efficiency/production of those things does seem to make them payoff in the long run, they are going to be expensive upfront, no matter how you look at it. I think they become especially useful only once you broach the 500 tap count. As far as wood consumption goes, yes you have to put wood in there pretty darn often. There are new "gasification" arches which claim to allow up to 45 minutes between load times, but they are pretty pricey, and not available in small sizes. However, in a small evaporator like a 2x6, while you do put in wood quite often, you don't put in very much each time. The goal is a hot, fast, even fire, i.e. not fill it full, wait til it is down to embers, repeat. More like throw a few small pieces in, wait a few minutes, throw a few more small pieces in, continue. If you put out 124 taps and were cooking on a decently efficient wood evaporator, which should get you somewhere between 25-30 gallons per cord (4x4x8) and you produced 1 quart of syrup per tap, you'd be making around 30 gallons of syrup and burning about a cord of wood, maybe a little more. That's not too bad for wood consumption. I know A&A makes airtight archfronts and maybe they have blowers too, I'm not sure, but these will help with speed and efficiency of the boil, generally speaking. Natural gas units are available, but not super common. Like you say, you'd probably burn a lot of gas. For me, part of the fun is burning the wood. No matter what you do, if you get any type of unit that is designed for making syrup, as opposed to an open kettle, you will be amazed at how fast you will be cooking. If you wanted to, what is the max number of taps you could put on your property? A 2x8 is a nice sized rig. If you did ever want to get a RO, you'd be able to make a lot of syrup and not burn too much wood. Or if you don't mind boiling around the clock, you'd still be able to cook a lot of syrup and just burn more wood. Good luck with your project.

[Daves Maple Farm]

Thank you so much for your replys. I will quit asking questions now and try to digest all this! Thanks again....Dave

[maple flats]

WOW Motowbrowne...great info. I keep looking at A&A`s 2x8. This would give us just a bit of breather room. Next issue is would the wood consumption mean every 5 min we put another log on the fire! I have free gas, but dont see any natural gas fired units, and may be pretty hard on the gas well, which would lead to uncontrolable HOT fire from wife if we ran out...lol. Last year we put a burner fron an old hotwater tank under the kettle and fired for around 12 hours straight. Just kept adding sap until 55 gal drum was empty!
I have seen natural gas units. I think they were conversions from wood. You just need the tube burner. With FREE gas it's a no brainer.

[rayi]

another dumb question whats A & A?

[Daves Maple Farm]

A&A Metal Shop
Ulysses Pa

[maple flats]

The only dumb question is the one you are thinking but don't ask!

[rayi]

I Googled A & A. About a million results Do they have aa web site

[Daves Maple Farm]

I really do not know. Just picked up on the various threads on this great site and think I`ll drive the 100 plus miles and see what they are. Havent read any bad reports on them as yet....maybe someone else can jump in here and shed a bit if light on them.

[jcyphert]

I Googled A & A. About a million results Do they have aa web site
They are an amish metal shop... They don't have a website... or a phone on the property for that matter. I found some info on this forum about them, they are close and the price is right... That's why we are interested. I'm sure my father or I will post a little write up if we end up with one.

[maple flats]

I bought my RO (250 gph size for $3200 last year) from Ray Gingerich, also Amish, but he has a phone in his shop. I've heard he also sells A&A. Ray's # is 440-422-3047. Ray also has no web site.

[Gary R]

Dave and jcyphert,

I have an A&A 2X8. I've also been to his shop a few times. You all are welcome to come over to my place and look it over. The amount of wood burnt per gal. of syrup is related to the sugar content of the sap. My sap ran about 1% last year. With the vacuum I had over 3000 gal. to boil. It took me over 4 cords of wood last year. There's lots of planning to do the next step. You guy's are off to a great start by looking now.

[red maples]

I just have a second then back to work so I may repeat something already said....

Smaller evaps maintain almost full value if well kept because what alot of smaller producers are doing instead of up grading to a bigger evap they are using steam aways, pre heaters, forced air, and RO's to maximize their current evaps where as a say stock 2x6 you might max at say 300-400 taps depending on your set-up and variables...vac vs buckets vs gravity, good season vs bad. once you add in all the little goodies and like to boil for a long time you can get 2000 or more taps on a 2x6 and well over 50GPH. There are so many people getting into hobby farming and the companies selling the smaller stuff are taking advantage of the situation and pushing the smaller equipment at a higher price. Many folks just getting into it are looking for that used smaller evap. hope that makes sense!!!

[jcyphert]

I bought my RO (250 gph size for $3200 last year) from Ray Gingerich, also Amish, but he has a phone in his shop. I've heard he also sells A&A. Ray's # is 440-422-3047. Ray also has no web site.
I "think" I talked to Ray on the phone already. He sells Sunrise (amish) and CDL. Great guy with tons of knowledge. I'll keep him in mind for RO.

[maple flats]

My RO from Ray is gas engine powered but if you have electricity at your sugarhouse, he also makes elec. driven RO's.

[Daves Maple Farm]

Sounds like a visit would be worth the trip, does he have much of a product show room or does he build just by the order?
Dave

[maple flats]

When I went there to pick up my RO, he had about 8 or 9 ready to go. He also has 2 or 3 he uses, but I didn't see a showroom as such. His shop is in a good size building and his sugarhouse is the back part of that building. When I was there it likely looked different from normal because I went when he was having an open house and demo on using his RO's. He also had a consignment auction taking place, and he was set up to feed everybody at a very reasonable price (all proceeds were going to the local Amish school). As such I can't really say what he normally has. That day he had hundreds of people there. He gave a demo/talk on the RO and likely 150-200 attended that, along with me. He still took the time to answer my questions. After I started to get ready to use my RO he was available to answer all questions as well as during the season.