High vacuum in gravity tubing research

[Gary R]

There is a recent article by Tim Wilmont, UV Proctor Maple Research Center in the Maple Syrup Digest. It explains in detail their findings for using 3/16" tubing for gravity systems. The performance looks to be excellent. Sap gallons per tap hole were equivalent with a vacuum pump system. A decent amount of fall is needed for this to work. There is also information as to where to find the fittings and tubing.

I have about 40 sugars I hang buckets on, just over a hill. I don't want to try hook them into my vacuum system because of cost and how far they are away. If I add the reds around them I will be at 75 taps. I can put a tank at the bottom of the hill and I should have about 30' of fall for many of the taps. I already drive to the bottom of the hill with my BAT mobile to collect the buckets. A little more road improvement and I should be good. I wasn't going to do any expansion this year but this could be a fun little project:)

[spud]

I read this also and found it to be very interesting. I'm glad your going to try it. Please let us know how it works for you. Just 8-9 months to go.

Spud

[lew]

There was plenty of research done on this years ago (70's-80's maybe). And there is plenty to be said for it. We ran thousands of taps this way. the plus side is if you have a good run, this system will gain yo more sap. But, if you have a year with weeping runs, it will impede your yield because you don't get enough sap in the lines to get them moving and they vaporlock. This was my experience from many years of trying. Pumped vacuum is where it is at. Not saying not to try it, just saying don't think it is going to be like pumped vacuum.

[GeneralStark]

There was plenty of research done on this years ago (70's-80's maybe). And there is plenty to be said for it. We ran thousands of taps this way. the plus side is if you have a good run, this system will gain yo more sap. But, if you have a year with weeping runs, it will impede your yield because you don't get enough sap in the lines to get them moving and they vaporlock. This was my experience from many years of trying. Pumped vacuum is where it is at. Not saying not to try it, just saying don't think it is going to be like pumped vacuum.

You used 3/16" tubing and fittings?

[lew]

Not 3/16, but the tubing diameter we use today, 5/16. the principle is the same. Cram so much sap into a pipe that the weight of the sap going down the pipe starts to "pull" of the upper end of the tubing. this pull is your vacuum. We would have as many as 120 taps on a single 5/16 line. There were times when we were tapping and the sap was running that you could hear the vacuum on an open spile over the sound of a running tanaka tapper. this type of tubing does work. Just not well on weepy or slow runs.

[jrgagne99]

Not 3/16, but the tubing diameter we use today, 5/16. the principle is the same. Cram so much sap into a pipe that the weight of the sap going down the pipe starts to "pull" of the upper end of the tubing. this pull is your vacuum. We would have as many as 120 taps on a single 5/16 line. There were times when we were tapping and the sap was running that you could hear the vacuum on an open spile over the sound of a running tanaka tapper. this type of tubing does work. Just not well on weepy or slow runs.


The point of Tim's research was that 3/16" ID tubing has about 1/3 of the interior volume per unit length than the 5/16". Therefore, you don't need to cram as many taps on a single line to produce enough enough sap to fill the water column, thereby establishing the natural vacuum. In Tim's research, even mediocre days with slow, weepy runs produced high vacuum levels (>20 inHg) in 3/16" tubing. The keys to this setup are leak-free lines, tight lines (no sags), and a good bit of head below the last tap, say 20 feet at least. Many of us don't have the necessary slope, but for those that do have sloped, remote bushes with no power this seems like it would be worth a try.

It will be interesting to see if the suppliers start making 3/16 fittings in the next few years. It seems like all they need to change is the hose-barb portion of their designs, right?

[Amber Gold]

When I read the study, I was impressed with the vac. numbers they were getting. A vac. system though will get the trees to run on marginal days, which this type of gravity system will not do. On a season like the one we had, this will get you a lot more sap. In a normal season though, I wonder what the production differences are.

[Gary R]

The production numbers are in the study. One of the 3/16 gravity bushes actually out produced one of their sugar bushes that was on a Busch vacuum pump. It produced more sap per tap over about a month. Another gravity bush almost matched the vacuum system, but another came in at half as much. It sounds like they are going to continue research on this.

Maybe Dr. Perkins could provide a link on here. It would give many others access to the study. Or, everyone can join their Maple Association and receive the Maple Digest.

I look at the economics of this, especially for the small producer. It wouldn't be cost effective for me to run power or a dry line and have a releaser for 75 taps. But, by tubing it as in the study, I might get three times the amount of sap per tap than my buckets.

[jrgagne99]

Maybe Dr. Perkins could provide a link on here. It would give many others access to the study. Or, everyone can join their Maple Association and receive the Maple Digest.



Just FYI, anyone can receive Maple Digest without necessarily joining their Maple Association. When I inquired, this is the note I got from the publisher:

The cost is $6.00 per year in the U.S. and $8.00 per year in Canada. There are 4 issues a year (Feb., June, Oct. and Dec.) The publication is 5 1/2 " x 9" and there are 40 pages. If you join your state maple association - the Digest is included in your dues (exceptions are VT and Ontario).

Send check to:
Maple Syrup Digest
PO Box 240
Canterbury, NH 03224

[Gary R]

My wife and I put up the 3/16" lines last weekend. I only have three runs about 600' long. They will have about 20 taps each and about 50' of fall for most of the taps. I assembled the drop lines last night. I found a way to use my tubing tools with the 3/16" tubing. I took a piece of very soft tubing that was 1/2"OD x 1/4"ID, cut it 1 1/2" long and then cut it length ways in half. I put one piece in each lower jaw of the tubing tool. I originally was going to glue them in place, but they embedded them selves into the threads of the clamps. Everything went together well. I'll cut the drops in this weekend. I already have CDL clear seasonal spouts on the drops. I'm putting end caps on them until I tap.

Here's the link for the research. http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/

[maplecrest]

Back in the early 80,s when i was playing with tubing. i had 400 taps on a 1/2 inch main line. gravity. the sap one day got a vac level going on the top of the system that was drawing on the lines as i walked down the main line. when i got to the last enterance before the tank the volume and pressure had built up so much that it blew the bottom lines off the main line. i then put a 3/4 line in place the 1/2 a couple of connecters above the blow off point.which controled the pressure. i just put vac on that system when i replaced the maine line and tubing.which is, i split the system in half with 2 - 3/4 inch lines.and cut the drops per lat from 10 or 12 to 4. for 20 plus years that system would get going and run great. since going to vac on this system 4 years now. and trees are older, not a young bush. but fairly steep, great slope. i do not see the volume of sap i did with that under sized and 12 tap per line set up. it does work. you have to think smaller diameter main lines and 10 to 12 taps per lat. to fill the lines.

[DrTimPerkins]

...Maybe Dr. Perkins could provide a link on here. It would give many others access to the study. Or, everyone can join their Maple Association and receive the Maple Digest.

All our current research papers are located at http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc in the "Recent Publications" section on the right.

The 3/16" tubing paper is located at: http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/highvacuum.pdf

Please recognize that the papers available on our website are UVM publications only. Others also publish in the Maple Digest. It is very inexpensive....consider subscribing either through your local association or as an individual.

[lastwoodsman]

Didn't someone give a source for 3/16 tubing and fittings? I cannot find it. I would like to set up a 400 ft run.

[GeneralStark]

Didn't someone give a source for 3/16 tubing and fittings? I cannot find it. I would like to set up a 400 ft run.

The article referenced earlier provides more detail and sources for the materials. D+G makes the 3/16" tubing and most are getting the fittings from McMaster Carr I believe.

[heus]

Dr Tim Wilmot gave a nice presentation on this topic at LEME saturday. I am thinking about using 3/16 next year at the back of my property where there is enough fall.

[bnbmaplesyrup]

The article referenced earlier provides more detail and sources for the materials. D+G makes the 3/16" tubing and most are getting the fittings from McMaster Carr I believe.

I have found the tubing at McMaster. Where do you find the taps for the trees? We have some steep side hills that this sounds like a viable solution to get another 50 - 75 taps.

[CampHamp]

Thanks for the research, Tim (or Doc?)! I'm giving this 3/16" tubing a shot on 60 taps. It feels a bit risky, since that is most of my taps. After getting less than 5 gallons per tap last year on 5/16" (albeit, a bad year), I thought I'd take a shot. I have a decent slope, but many of the trees are low on the hillside. It is difficult to predict from the publication how the vacuum in the tubing changes based on average slope angle. For example, if I have some lines that are short (100') and steep (30' drop) and wonder how this vacuum will compare to a longer (400') line with a shallower slope (30' drop). I'll take readings from my pressure meter when it's flowing and report.

I have a 500' gravity line of 5/16" with 30 taps from last year. I'd like to extend this line another 200' down to my mainline and wonder if I should extend it with 3/16". My gut feel is that it will create better vacuum on this bottom part and may even improve upper-line gravity pull as sap backs-up at the transition point.

When I looked at my 5/16" lines last year, it seemed that most of the sap flowed under air along the slopes and in some shallow places the sap would form columns and move as a unit, like a cork out of a bottle. I wondered if I should even add water to the top of the line to get all that air out!

[DrTimPerkins]

Thanks for the research, Tim (or Doc?)!

Yes, it can be confusing....there are two "Tim's" at UVM PMRC.

Dr. Tim Perkins, aka Dr. Tim, UVM PMRC Director, Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu
Tim Wilmot, M.S., aka Tim, UVM Maple Extension Specialist (stationed at UVM PMRC), Timothy.Wilmot@uvm.edu

If you have questions about the 3/16" tubing, they should be directed to Tim Wilmot

If it's easier to remember, I'm the handsome one. :lol:

[CampHamp]

Thanks for the clarification, Dr Tim Perkins (aka "the handsome one")! ;)

Tim Wilmot, when the season comes, I'd be glad to provide vacuum stats for my lines (I have 4 gauges) along with length/slope attributes, if you think this would help you progress this research. I think it will be interesting to see what my "mixed-line" does (the one with 5/16" on the upper section and 3/16" on the lower part). Do you have a prediction?

BTW, I noticed that there are T-reducing fittings that will convert 1/4" directly to the 3/16" run. Do you see a problem using those to eliminate the need for the adapter in the drop line? I don't have a price yet, but it would save me time putting adapters in, if there are no expected issues with that. I don't have a need this season, but others might be interested.

Again, thanks for your research. I expect that it will make these small, hill-side runs much more productive without the need for vacuum equipment.

[DrTimPerkins]

Tim Wilmot does not monitor this list. If you wish to reach him, send an email to Timothy.Wilmot@uvm.edu

[GeneralStark]

I have found the tubing at McMaster. Where do you find the taps for the trees? We have some steep side hills that this sounds like a viable solution to get another 50 - 75 taps.

It's kind of confusing having two threads on this same subject but the article posted earlier provides all details. You will not find 3/16" spouts so in the study, Tim Wilmot used 5/16" spouts -> 5/16" tubing-> 5/16-3/16" reducer -> 3/16" tubing -> 3/16" T.

[rubydog]

I found 3/16x3/16x1/4 barbed tees for .09 each would these work and just have 5/16 tubing from spile to tee or does the drop have to be 3/16 also?

[Gary R]

I tapped my 60 on 3/16 tubing last night. All three lines were running tonight. It's pretty neat watching the sap flow all the way down 600' of tubing. I need to tighten up a few things and get the gauges on. I'm looking forward to great production.

[DrTimPerkins]

I found 3/16x3/16x1/4 barbed tees for .09 each would these work and just have 5/16 tubing from spile to tee or does the drop have to be 3/16 also?

Yes, it is fine to do it this way. Drop can be 5/16" line.

[unc23win]

Pretty cool Gary I am interested to see how it does for you. I might be interested in trying it in a remote location.

[CampHamp]

I have had 8 fittings pop-out on my 12 lines (a mix of T's and straights) so far this year. I think if you pull a tight line and you get a freeze, then the single barb on hard tubing just doesn't cut it. I'm slackening as I repair. Not enough sap flowing yet to say if I'm seeing improvements on these lines. Any news from others trying the 3/16 tubes?

[Gary R]

I have not had a lot of sap flow. The runs I have had the 3/16 has outperformed my vacuum taps. We need better flows to confirm. I have not had any lines pop off. I have a lot of slope so they are not that tight. Hopefully these systems work well and the maple industry produces a fitting specific to our use.

Rubydog, would you be willing to give us the source for the 3/16 X 5/16 X 3/16 tee? That could cut cost and make installation easier. Thank you!

[rubydog]

I have not had a lot of sap flow. The runs I have had the 3/16 has outperformed my vacuum taps. We need better flows to confirm. I have not had any lines pop off. I have a lot of slope so they are not that tight. Hopefully these systems work well and the maple industry produces a fitting specific to our use.

Rubydog, would you be willing to give us the source for the 3/16 X 5/16 X 3/16 tee? That could cut cost and make installation easier. Thank you!

I found them on line but cant remember where I used 3/16lx3/16x3/16 too early too tell how it is doing only two small runs so far. If I can find those tees online I will let you know where.

[sugaringcrazy]

I have about 75 taps on 3/16 this year. I am having the same problem as camphamp. I walked up yesterday morning to see 4 of my 5 lines had pulled off their fittings. Only at the T's. It was frustrating. I emailed Tim and he said he hasn't had this problem over the last couple of years, so I'm thinking it's my problem, but if other people are having the same issue I'm not so sure. He thinks the single barb is actually stronger, but it sounds counter intuitive to me. It was the first morning that the line froze with a lot of sap in it, so not sure what that effect had. I also took note that once everything was fixed, it took a long time for the lines to get going yesterday. Some of them never really got going. Meanwhile my 150 buckets were having a decent run. It was in the mid 30s, and it seemed like the lines just weren't unfreezing. Is this a common issue with natural gravity lines. This is my first year using any sort of line.

[BrianL]

I have bought some 3/16" tubing from Mcmaster and the fittings as well but had not realized how tight the fittings are, that will teach me not to speed read over the part where he said that I would need a tubing tool. At any rate while discussing this with a friend, he offered me a large coil of 6mm medical LDPE with 1/32" wall.

This is just under 1/4" and the 3/16" fittings can be persuaded to enter but are a real bear to get out so I think that they will seal ok.

As this is right between the 3/16" and 5/16" is there hope that the yield will improve over the 5/16"?
The study mentions other size testing but not the results.

[Gary R]

As I mentioned, mine have not pulled out. I tapped mine on Feb. 9th. We've had a lot of freezing on lines full of sap. One question would be are you using 3/16 tubing from D&G? It is very supple like 5/16 drop line tubing. It collapses around the single barb well. If you had a break and need to get it going, Tim Wilmont told me you can add a pint of water at the top of the run. It will fill the line and create the high vacuum needed to get the trees running.

[CampHamp]

I had 6 fittings pop out yesterday. I'll need to walk my lines every day to inspect/repair. :( I think they popped this time during the thaw around noon and sap just running into snow. The lower sections must have been frozen while the upper trees were pushing sap out.

For tubing, I'm using the first company that Tim Wilmot provided in his paper, Hudson Extrusions Inc www.hudsonextrusions.com. The tubing is hard, nothing like the blue 5/16". Is that what D&G sells?

I don't want to throw-out all this tubing, I've got $250 dollars in it. When a coupling fails, I now replace it with a foot of 5/16 and over-lap the lines quite a bit. I hope this will act like a pressure buffer. I think I'll be buying 5/16 T's and connect them in the same way.

Anyone selling snowshoes?

[Gary R]

CampHamp, did you specify HDPE tubing from Hudson? I was going to buy from them because their price per foot is way cheaper than D&G. I did not like that it was in 100' rolls. Dave Y was at D&G for a maple supply run for his dealership. He called me and said he'd haul back the tubing for me. I jumped on it. The D&G is very soft. Tim Wilmont isn't on the trader. Maybe contact him or Dr. Perkins can speak up as to if they actually used the Hudson tubing.

[CampHamp]

I asked for HDPE and the invoice said HDPE - it's a hard, translucent, white tubing. I certainly wish I had considered D&G at this point (!) but didn't know it was a different plastic.

I had 5 T's push the lines out today and one of my couplings that I had put on yesterday had pushed apart (this coupling used a section of overlapping 5/16"). I had overlapped about 1" yesterday on this coupling and so, today, repaired everything today using the same overlap technique with about 2.5" overlap (not easy to do) and clamped the 3/16 with the hand tool to make the surface rough for more holding friction, before inserting into the 5/16". I had a check-valve tap spit the tubing out on this same morning walk - seems like my sap expands more than others!

Next 2 days look like good run days, so I proactively replaced a bunch of other T's that had come off previously, hoping that by taking the 3/16" fittings out of more connections (with this extra-long overlap) it will keep things together. I cannot think of another solution, but am open to suggestions.

I don't mind being outdoors and getting some exercise and hope that I'm contributing to some sort of general progress for mankind... ;)

Tim W had told me to do the overlap technique, so I remain hopeful that these repairs might last a while.

[sugaringcrazy]

I got the HDPE from Hudson too, and I'm regretting not getting the D&G tubing. I'm repairing lines every day. So far I have mostly been replacing the fittings, but I like the idea of overlapping with 5/16. Definitely turning into a pain in the butt! I'm also having tubing coming off the spiles too. So much frozen sap that is expanding and not getting through. This week is going to warm up and hopefully the lines with settle and flow good! I don't have vacuum gauges on yet, but they are coming, and I'm very curious to see how much vacuum I'm getting.

[CampHamp]

sugaringcrazy,

I drew this up, just to be clear about what I am attempting:

7181

I'll let you know if it works over the next few days.

[sugaringcrazy]

To clarify, you are using straight up 5/16 Ts and couplers then using the reducing fittings to go into the 3/16. It seams like a good way to do it! I got things all fixed up this morning and got a decent run. Still waiting for my vacuum gauges to see what kind of pull I'm actually getting.

[CampHamp]

So far there are no breaks on any of my 5/16 tube "overlap technique". Found another check valve spit the tubing and one 3/16 T break yesterday morning - I didn't look for issues today since it's staying cold here and won't run until tomorrow.

To answer... I'm not using any 3/16" fittings - not even reducers. I use a straight-up 5/16" T and put a short piece of 5/16" tube on it. Then insert my 3/16 tube directly into the 5/16 tube. If you look at that sketch I made, the blue line is 5/16 and the white lines are 3/16 and the only fittings needed are the 5/16 T's.

btw- I found a way to check faster for breaks and leaks in the last week... I have a 12v transfer pump (diaphragm type that can be run dry) that I use to pump up to my head tank. I now put that onto my main line and suck into my collection tank (no releaser system obviously so only works after all is melted). I turn it on and check the "lateral" connections to the mainline and if any are racing in, I know there is a line break. Just like the vacuum checks that big operators do, I guess, but really saving me time and only run it for an hour or so.

I wonder how much air people usually get in their lines. I seem to have much more air than sap, like 70% air, even with taps all tight. I wonder if many of my 3/16 fittings are not air tight, because I can't explain all this air just by looking at the taps. How is it looking for others?

[Gary R]

I have not had any strong runs yet. The last two days have run about one gallon per tap. My lines look to only have about 20% air. I think a lot of air means the trees aren't running well or leaks. Look at your tees. If there is more air and/or the bubbles are moving faster on the down hill side you have leaks. I haven't had a chance to even walk my lines for two weeks.

[Gary R]

The last couple of days have been good runs. well more than a gallon per tap per day. The lines are almost full of sap. I'd say only 1 or 2% air in the lines. Vacuum has been 24" to 27".73017302

[not_for_sale]

Question: why do you have to use 3/16 for the drops or even for lines that are with little grade on them. Since this vacuum depends on a sap column sitting in a line would it not be enough to just use the 3/16 tubing on the steep drops to the tank(s).

If you retrofit, could you not just replace the main line in areas where you have the drop?

[CampHamp]

An update on my efforts battling popped and leaky fittings on the "hard white" 3/16 tubing... Unfortunately, I've had 3 of the "overlap technique" connections pull apart last week, so that is not yet the solution I was hoping it would be. I am now trying to use longer pieces of 5/16" when I repair, because the ones that popped out were only about 4" long and perhaps having more blue tubing gives more room for expansion during a freeze (?). The real solution, I'm beginning to expect, will probably be to toss out all this hard tubing for next year. For now, I will just keep building sand castles between the tides!

I've focused on getting vacuum on the lines with my small 12V pump. It can keep 20" of vacuum (on the main line) when I run continuously or 14" with an intermittent on/off (so the battery lasts the whole day).

Good luck to the rest of you frontiersmen (you know, the ones with arrows in their chest!).

[Forrest hunters]

Just a thought. What would happen if everything was tuned 5/16" and the last part from last tree or major drop to be the thinner tube?

[Moser's Maple]

CampHamp,
are you using a small diaphram pump or something else, would like to get some info on your 12v vacuum and the setup you plan to use it on
Jake Moser
Moser's Maple

[CampHamp]

CLICK HERE (http://www.shurflo.com/rv-products/rv-pumps/classic-series-water-pumps/4048-high-flow-pump/default.html) for the pump that I have. It can be found for about $150.

DISCLAIMER: It is not designed to be used as a vacuum pump. I bought it to pump up to my head tank.

It is certified as food grade and can be run dry. To work it as a vacuum pump, I simply put the intake onto my mainline and dump into my collection tank. I don't run it until after the ice is gone from the lines (there's an intake screen, so it can handle some ice but will plug up if there's too much). I have 90 taps on this mainline.

I am getting a 12V transformer from eBay [EDIT ***note that this transformer will not work because it is 12V AC and not DC!!!***] (CLICK HERE (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111012937727?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649)) and will be running an extension down to the pump so I can run it all day - should be here this week. For now, I can run for about 3 hours on a full battery (a 5-yr-old, used car battery).

For intermittent, all-day running on battery: I rigged up a bare electric wire to hang from my mainline near the pump and when the sap backs up and weighs down the mainline (it sags about 1/2" down), this top wire touches another wire sticking up from the ground, makes a connection and turns the pump on for a couple cycles until the mainline clears and rises up. I know, a bit rinky-dink but it works once you get the wires to make reliable contact.

My flow rate is double with suction on the line (I timed filling up a bottle with and without the pump). There's probably such a difference because of all the air that is creating airlock on my lines.

[CampHamp]

Just a thought. What would happen if everything was tuned 5/16" and the last part from last tree or major drop to be the thinner tube?

I wondered the same thing, down in post #17 (middle paragraph). I did set this up and this line is my most productive (by visual inspection). It does have more trees than any other line I have, so I would expect it to run fastest. Without putting a vacuum meter up on that line, the only conclusion I can draw is that it doesn't seem to harm the flow to add 3/16 as a retrofit to the end of a 5/16 line.

[Gary R]

Sorry guys, the object of this thread was to help make folks aware of the research done at UVM Proctor and Tim Wilmont. We are trying to duplicate his efforts. This will help everyone if we all can produce great sap yield results. Once you deviate from his design it would be a guess as to what would happen. It's a real bummer that the Hudson tubing is not working. My gauge results are showing vacuum levels that exceed most vacuum pumps. So far this system is out producing, gal. per tap, than my vacuum pump tubing. My pump runs at 27" at the pump, but I do have three ladders on it.

My guess on the 5/16 tubing is that it would be slow to start running. You would need to evacuate the greater volume of air in the upstream 5/16. So long sap runs would be good, but short ones poor.

[CampHamp]

Gary, I'm glad to hear you were able to get this to work. sugaringcrazy and I tried to follow Tim W's design, but we can work out a tactical solution by email instead...

[CampHamp]

Just one more note on this. I asked Tim W about adding 3/16 to the bottom of a 5/16 lateral to add vacuum as a retrofit and he did not expect this would work. His exact words:

"I would use all 3/16 for this line, or, if you do use some 5/16, put it near the mainline, not near the top of the line." -Tim Wilmot

[Gary R]

CampHamp, the best of luck to you getting things working. I guess with any new design there are a few bugs to work out. Hopefully others will learn from our experiences.

Are there others out there trying this? Please post your results.

[cadocter]

Hey Gary,
Still have to call you sometime. Lol. I tried the 3/16 this year with 12 taps on it. The last 50 ft or so(top end of line) of the line is 5/16 because I ran out of the 3/16. Where the 5/16 is at there is only maybe 3 ft of fall. The 3/16 has close to 30 ft of fall in it. So far, it has out produced, gallon per tap per day, our main gravity bush. On mediocre days, the 3/16 runs like crazy while the main bush just drips. I don't have a gauge on it, wish I did. Maybe next year I can get one hooked up to it. I'm sold on the 3/16 stuff. In the future, I would like to put in a main line near my house that has about 300 taps on it. I'm definitely going to use the 3/16. The only problem I have is how do I plug the taps at the end of the season?

[Gary R]

cadoctor, I bought 5/16 caps. They're in the Leader catalog. They are a soft plastic cap that goes over the end of the spout. I'm using clear polycarbonate spouts. I'm going to cap them at the end of the season. When I tap next year I will cut in new spouts. Hopefully the maple industry will make some maple specific tees that have a post. I'm not sure how I am going to clean the tubing. I think I am going to make some type of funnel to fit the spout. Pour in a bleach solution and chase with water. Thanks for the feed back!

[harrison6jd]

in regards to cleaning, i am using check spiles and cleaning was going to be an issue. i am going to mix up a sanitizing solution in a soda keg,pressurize it with co2, and go to each spile and squirt some of the solution in. it will be tedious hitting all the spiles but it may do the trick.

[cadocter]

Thanks Gary. I'll have to look around for those caps. I too am using check-valves so I think I'm going to mix up a bleach solution in a bucket and have something sucking on the downhill end of the tubing and dip each tap into the bucket to suck some of the solution up. I'm just not sure yet what I'm going to use to suck on the other end while I'm 500 ft away. Any ideas?

[Gary R]

I am willing to bet that if you keep liquid in the line and do one spout at a time the vacuum in the line will suck the cleaning solution from a bucket. Karl Evans, Mayhill Maple, has the caps.

The soda keg is an interesting idea. My father suggested I buy a new pump sprayer and squirt it in.

FYI to all, I sent a sample of D&G tubing to Hudson Extrusions. I asked if they have something similar. Maybe they have something that won't pop off the fittings.

[RiverValleySugarhouse]

Very interesting thread you guys have. Hopefully the maple manufactures will catch on to this and start making more options in the 3/16" tee's, connectors, and spouts so on. Maybe D&G will in the future since they make the line already. With the right line and better fittings I bet they could make a good option for the gravity guys out there. I'd be willing to try the 3/16" on some of my smaller lots. But I don't have all the time to check for leaks or popped fittings right now. Sound like it would surely help sap yields.... Nice work guys!!!!:D

[Gary R]

We have been froze up for a week. The sun came out today and the sap started to run. I have the D&G tubing and haven't checked it for a couple weeks. The flow is not that great but the vacuum is good.75077508

[harrison6jd]

the pump sprayer is a great idea.! sometimes the best solutions are right in front of you.

[windyacres]

i installed 4000 feet of D and G 3/16 on a very steep north facing slope. about 200 taps. the fittings came overnite via courier 7.72 $ shipping from Spaneur Fasteners in Kitchener Ontario. They grab the 3/16 very well, we have had no sap in 2 weeks 10 degree farenheit nites, no issues with fittings. The laterals average 500 feet long -20 taps ,vertical fall 80-100 feet- very steep. the taps closest to the mainline are on seperate 5/16. therfore the last taps are at least 20 feet vertical above mainline. i will report results as they become available. PS they ran very fast for a little , right after i tapped but to brief to evaluate

[cadocter]

Gary, I never thought of that with the natural vacuum helping with cleaning. Wow! Those are some impressive numbers with the vac gauges. I need to buy one for my line so I know what it's pulling. I'd be interested to know your syrup/sap per tap ratio at the end of the year.

The D&G 3/16 has been holding onto the fittings real good. I too hope someone will make the fittings specifically for 3/16.

[Springfield Acer]

So, my idle thoughts between gathering a mother load of sap and scorching stuff has left me with the following thought trail:
It would seem that one would need 35' of fall to get max vac at the top and the vac gets less and less as you go down hill.
Therefore for best vac you would want to be 35' below your last tap which could be impossible due more maples along the way, topography, or property lines.
The best would be a sheer drop off at the end the bush.
However, why couldn't we flat landers tap at some normal slope radially to a cenrer point where you would have 40' deep well capped at the bottom?
Case it with PVC and put rock or concrete in the bottom to keep it from floating and then install submersible pump with float.
The. 3/16 drops would be of rigid tubing for neatness and clearance.
???????

[Gary R]

Springfield Acer, you must have been drinking your Famous Grouse for that one:lol: That is a very interesting idea. Many of us have no slope. Many runs of 3/16 going down the pipe 35'. Pump on the bottom with a float to turn on when it get 5' deep of sap? I like it. Would it work? People spend a lot of money on a vacuum system.

My 60 taps on 3/16 just ran 110gal in 24 hours. The weather isn't even the best yet. I can't wait to total my gal./tap for the year!

[Springfield Acer]

I'm not sure how expensive of an experiment it would be but if it would work, you would get full vac on all taps and get the great vac results you got (or better) with no pump and only a light power supply for the pump.
We need a sap producer who is a well driller by trade to give it a try.

[cadocter]

I like that Springfield Acer! Maybe that will be on next year's to do list. Lol. I went and checked my 3/16 line today and to my surprise had over 3 gallon per tap today. I only have twelve taps on the line and came out with around 40 gallons. The weather wasn't even that great today. All of my other taps averaged about a gallon per tap today. Nice surprise, other than the fact I still have 150 gallons to boil off plus what I got today. Oh well, time for a bigger Evaporator.:lol:

[Gary R]

The sap has run great this last week. The 60 taps on 3/16 ran 588gal of sap the last 6 days. The season may only last another week for me. I wanted to post a few pictures. One is my collection tank so I know how much sap there is. Another is the flow of sap on two of my lines and how I wrapped around a tree to take tension of the line going into the tank. I wish I had a big bush to set up.

If anyone else has comments, good or bad, on their 3/16 systems please post it here. We all learn by posting it.
760976107611

[Gary R]

The sap had slowed this week due to cold weather. It has now picked up big time. I collected 140gal. of sap off the 60 taps in the last 24hrs. The taps have been in since Feb. 9. I am now over 30gal. of sap per tap! I turned my vacuum off last week at only 22GPT.

[Springfield Acer]

That is so impressive that I cannot help to wonder about the 40' deep well with submersible pump for us flat landers.

[TRAILGUY]

The sap had slowed this week due to cold weather. It has now picked up big time. I collected 140gal. of sap off the 60 taps in the last 24hrs. The taps have been in since Feb. 9. I am now over 30gal. of sap per tap! I turned my vacuum off last week at only 22GPT.

details on set up?? Slope ,# taps per, all 3/16 tubing? I have 10 to 15 % slope deeper in the woods can I make then work on 3/16 never run vacuum to them

[Gary R]

The season ended for me yesterday. I ended up getting 1997gal of sap off of 60 taps, 33.3GPT. That was twice I was hoping for. This system worked incredible well for me. I'll recap the whole set up.

I used all 3/16 D&G tubing, no main lines. The only 5/16 was about a foot at every tap to transition to the CDL clear polycarbonate tap. The line from the highest tap to the next tap was 5/16. I did this because it is stronger for holding to the end tree. I had three separate runs. One, 450' with 22 taps, one 650' with 20 taps and the last, 650' with 18 taps. They ended in 55gal barrels for collection. My slope varies a lot. The top is about 5%, then I have a steep drop of about 30% then about 15% to the barrels. 50 of the taps have at least 30', up to 50' of total fall. I did not have any failures in the tubing (lines pulling off barbs). I tapped the trees on Feb. 9th and pulled them April 7th. We had a lot of cold weather here. I believe we would have a more sap if it was a few degrees warmer on the days it ran. I cleaned the lines as I pulled taps. The sap was still running when I pulled them. I used a bleach solution and started at the top. The tap was pulled and it sucked up the bleach. I then capped the old tap. Once I got to the bottom tap or two they did not suck the bleach up well. Probably because they were near the end of the line and did not have much vacuum on them. I then went back to the top and sucked in clean water to flush the bleach out. I left the top end open so that the lines drain well. I'll cap both ends tomorrow. Whether cleaning helps is still being researched. I plan on using CV2's next year.

This was a fun and very successful experiment. Thanks to Tim Wilmont and UV Proctor!

[TRAILGUY]

thanks gary your information is very understandable and points me in the right direction you got all most as much as i did on250 .
i have 8 to 15 % slope on 70 taps deeper in the wood the other 200 only have short 4 to 8 % slope so i do not think they would do much

are you saying you have a 30 foot drop after the last tap?????

[PerryW]

A 32 foot column of water would in theory, pull a perfect vacuum, but my tubing always seems to have bubbles which comprise somewhere around 50% of the column. These bubbles would decresae the vacuum somewhat as air weighs much less than sap.

Does the smaller 3/16" tubing reduce the air bubbles that are normally seen in sap flow in laterals?

[Gary R]

Trailguy, I only have at least a 30' drop on 50 of the 60 taps. Each of my three runs were different. The last tap on one run only had a 5' drop, another run a 10' drop. I could have run the tubing further down the hill for more drop. I just did not want to run the extra tubing.

PerryW, that sounds like a question for a professional. We might be getting more info from UV Proctor this summer. I emailed Tim Wilmont and it sounds like a lot of research is going on. What I saw was on bigger runs there was less air in the line. Also, the further down the line less air.

[PerryW]

Gary, I did an experiment a few years ago where I took a 5/16 line with 45 taps which was running good. I disconnected it from the mainline and instead hooked it into another 5/16" lateral which ran straight down a steep hill (probably 100% grade) and dropped 120 vertical feet where I hooked it into another mainline. I was hoping for some high vacuum, but what happened the the sap flow transitioned from a flow of columns of sap into a flow along the bottom of the pipe (like a gutter) which produced no additional vacuum.

I figured either I needed smaller pipe or more taps.

[windyacres]

This spring i put 4000 feet 3/16 D G on a very steep norh facing hill. season was 40 days. My records are poor but basically the north slope matched or exceedes the early mid slope but kicked in at end of season with 30 percent of trees yielding 50 appreox of total sap. they ran strongfrom start to finish and was the only part of bush to yield a gal/tap/day on 3 occaSIONS. I WILL BE ADDING ANOTHER 300 TAPS NEXT YEAR

[TRAILGUY]

So far there are no breaks on any of my 5/16 tube "overlap technique". Found another check valve spit the tubing and one 3/16 T break yesterday morning - I didn't look for issues today since it's staying cold here and won't run until tomorrow.

To answer... I'm not using any 3/16" fittings - not even reducers. I use a straight-up 5/16" T and put a short piece of 5/16" tube on it. Then insert my 3/16 tube directly into the 5/16 tube. If you look at that sketch I made, the blue line is 5/16 and the white lines are 3/16 and the only fittings needed are the 5/16 T's.

btw- I found a way to check faster for breaks and leaks in the last week... I have a 12v transfer pump (diaphragm type that can be run dry) that I use to pump up to my head tank. I now put that onto my main line and suck into my collection tank (no releaser system obviously so only works after all is melted). I turn it on and check the "lateral" connections to the mainline and if any are racing in, I know there is a line break. Just like the vacuum checks that big operators do, I guess, but really saving me time and only run it for an hour or so.

I wonder how much air people usually get in their lines. I seem to have much more air than sap, like 70% air, even with taps all tight. I wonder if many of my 3/16 fittings are not air tight, because I can't explain all this air just by looking at the taps. How is it looking for others?

IS THIS JUST PUSHING ONE TUBE INTO ANOTHER AND how well did it work?

[CampHamp]

IS THIS JUST PUSHING ONE TUBE INTO ANOTHER AND how well did it work?
Yes, I just pushed the small tubing into the 5/16" as deep as I could. Since I had the hard, white tubing, there is no "give" at all and when the sap froze it pushed ice columns across the line rather than expanding the tubing (like the softer blue stuff would do). These "ice columns" would burst apart the 3/16" fittings from the hard tube and would sometimes even push apart these inserted tubes (but less often). The pressure created also forced the tube off my check valve taps over a dozen times... I never found a full-proof solution and will be scrapping my hard 3/16" tube (replacing what I have put up as well as what I have still in boxes that I didn't bother to put up after realizing the problems with it). I'm not sure that you would be able to insert the soft 3/16" into 5/16" in this same fashion, since I expect it would be too flexible -- people here just used the standard couplings on the blue tube without issues.

Even though I had a terrible time fixing things each morning with my setup this year, it was small enough to manage through and still be productive. The side benefit is that I learned how to setup an inexpensive sap puller and I made 1/3 gal of syrup per tap in the end which was much higher than my neighbor achieved (without vac or check valves).

[windyacres]

I put the 5/16 tubing in freezer first, then i dip the 3/16 in cornoil (just a quarter inch) You can then push the small line inside effortless-- i go about 4 inch overlap. bundle in tens and run thru washer , hot water only , gets rid of oil . Saves money but more important a lesser chance of gathering slime- bacteria at end of season.

[Little Maple]

Has anyone used the 3/16 tubing on a vacuum system?

[windyacres]

Natural high vacuum and vacuum via pump are both the same end product but are produced in a radical different way. Pumped vacuum depends on vacuum transfer thru lines and the bigger the better because it is competing with incoming sap for space. Natural vacuum is based on filling up the small line quickly under various flows from a liitle more than weeping to an all out run. When that small line fills the vertical drop (including and most importantly after the last tap ) create a column of sap that has weight----if all fittings are tight and no chews its a. sure thing to pull high vacuum when the entire line is thawed . This concept has already been demonstrated at Proctor Research but is a work in progress.i am playing at this and hope to have about 500 taps on small line for 2014. our bushes in muskoka seldom have more than 2 -3 feet soils, but i believe it is possible to double sap yield without a pump and will demonstate same over 2-3 years.

[steve J]

I think you all have sold me on trying 3/16 tubing couple of questions thou. Gary R you say you do not have this 3/16 running into main lines? is there a reason for that? Is there a reason main line would affect this? The second question is will the check valves spouts work well with this system?

[ennismaple]

Has anyone used the 3/16 tubing on a vacuum system?

Not that I know of. Recent research on vacuum systems has been on bigger lateral lines - 1/2". It is supposed to avoid the slugs of sap/ice in the lines and get better vacuum to the taphole. I can't imagine 3/16" allowing more vacuum to the taphole and would in fact expect it to be much less.

[500592]

I think I heard somebody say they tried it on vacuum and that it worked good but maybe they had really good slope or the small tubing allowed the sap to be pulled through the tubing and creating a vacuum on the other side. But I really don't have a clue.

[Gary R]

Steve J, I have no main line because that's all the trees I want to tap on that hillside. About 20 taps on a 500' run (three of them). It's only about a 2 acre area. If I had about 5 acres or more I would want to use a main line. When the sap dumps into a main line you no longer have vacuum. Maybe UV Proctor will be testing check valves on these. I bought more CDL clear "Y" spouts for next season.

[steve J]

One more question I do have a main line in place at bottom of hill side with fittings for the 5/16th lines. Can the 3/16th line be adapted to fit to this or must I buy new fittings?

[Gary R]

You will probably need the 1/4 X 5/16 adapter that is used on the tap end. A short piece of 5/16 will connect to the mainline.

[steve J]

I went to Mcmaster Carr and it appeared to be a plumbing company? and looking online at DG I did not see the 3/16s listed but they have a rather poor website.

[bowhunter]

If you e-mail D&G in Vermont, they have 3/16 tubing. It's $45 per 1000 foot roll.

[steve J]

Well I ordered enough fittings to do 60 taps and if it all goes together well will order another 60. I going up to DG one day this week to buy tubing and to see if they can give me an idea what tubing tool to buy and how to modify it as I never used such a tool in the past.

[maplecrest]

I went to see a 3/16 set up being built this last week at art krugers. he got a grant from state of vt working lands to fund the project.The tees came from McMaster Carr. Not d and g . The drops are 5/16 . Was told maple co.s are not successfully making spouts , or connecters at this time. what he is doing is taking a short piece of 3/16 pushing on top of tee then pushing the 5/16 drop line over that. then cut drop in 3/16 line. the lines are very long. he took all his mainlines down. i did not see a main line connecter. he did have vac gauges at the top of every line. he put up 200 taps last season and liked the way it worked. sold his vac pump and is going 100% . will go back in spring if i find time to see it work

[steve J]

I have another question from what I read it appears that at the head of each line a vacuum gauge should be installed. I have never worked with such a gauge they seem to be inexpensive from Granger. My question is are you putting one on every line or is there a way to have a test port that you can plug on every line?

[maplecrest]

steve you should call art, and ask him 802 492 3653 he can help since he is in the middle of a complete install

[mvh1969]

Steve J, I am setting up 300 taps in Huntington. I have info on the tubing, tubing tool, fittings, gauges etc if you are interested PM me, your inbox is full!

Mike

[K.I. Joe]

If you e-mail D&G in Vermont, they have 3/16 tubing. It's $45 per 1000 foot roll.


1000 foot roll for 45??? Or 500 foot roll

[DrTimPerkins]

... are you putting one on every line or is there a way to have a test port that you can plug on every line?

Pulling a fitting off the line and plugging in the vacuum gauge is likely to give you a false reading (vacuum will be lower than it was when you pulled the fitting). Once you pull the fitting, you create an air vent, and the sap will quickly run out of the line (pulling in air), thus losing some or all of the vacuum. It is like when you have a straw full of liquid and your finger is on top, the liquid stays in the straw due to the slight vacuum that is created on the column of liquid. Once you take your finger off the straw, the liquid runs out, and the vacuum is gone.

[Gary R]

The gauge is not needed. I put the in two of my three lines because I was curious as to how much vacuum was there. Many days I had 26-27 inches. I cut in an extra 5/16 tee at the top of the run, added a short piece of tubing, a shut off valve and a gauge.

[DrTimPerkins]

... a shut off valve and a gauge.

Yes, as long as you have a shut-off valve, you could put a gauge on the line, open the valve, and read the vacuum, then shut off the valve, and remove the gauge. This wouldn't result in the loss of (much) vacuum. Quick disconnects 5/16" would help.

You certainly wouldn't need to gauge all the lines. Maybe just a couple of them. If they are running and the vacuum is good, then the others should be OK too. If the others (not with a gauge) aren't running, or are running far less, they are either frozen or there are leaks in the line preventing vacuum from developing.

[bowhunter]

I think it's 500 feet. If I said 1000 ft it was probably a mistake. I wouldn't find a couple of the e-mail they sent me on the price.

[steve J]

It is 500ft as I purchased a roll earlier in the week. Last thing I am trying to nail down is the proper tubing tool the one that is mentioned in the research that seems to retro fit the best. Mike gave me an email address of someone that is elling the tool but I am having no luck getting that person to email me back. So if anyone can give me a model number I would appreciate it as I want to start this project late next week.

[K.I. Joe]

Anybody have any problem with the smaller lines freezing and staying frozen longer than the 5/16th line

[K.I. Joe]

Would love to hear if people think that this has large scale applications or if it fits just for the smaller guy. I havent heard of any of the big guys switching to this yet. Curious what Dr. Tim thinks on this one.

[DrTimPerkins]

Would love to hear if people think that this has large scale applications or if it fits just for the smaller guy. I havent heard of any of the big guys switching to this yet. Curious what Dr. Tim thinks on this one.

It has definitely shown promise in testing so far, as long as the proper conditions are met. You definitely need a good drop in elevation (so good slope). If you don't have that, don't bother. There is still a lot of work to be done to determine the proper and optimal layouts, and whether 3/16 can be used in a vacuum system. Unfortunately it will be a few more years before those answers are available. Tim Wilmot (UVM Maple Extension) is the 3/16" tubing guru.

[steve J]

I have all my supplies to start switching over some lines I am going to do at lease 60 taps and than decide rather to stop at that and test it out next spring or rather to do an additional 60 more. One question I have is I have plenty of drop ranging from 50 ft to probably around 75 ft. The section I am going to do this week starts on a shelf at the top of the hill probably 2 or 3 trees and than it starts its dive downward. Is it an issue if those first couple of trees have a min. slope? that run is probably going to have 15 taps.

[K.I. Joe]

So if you have good Slope, would you go with 5/16 on Vac or with 3/16th

[bowhunter]

That should be fine. If you have 75 feet of slope below those top couple of trees you should have very high vacuum at the top. The trees at the bottom of the run will have the least amount of vacuum.

[DrTimPerkins]

...starts on a shelf at the top of the hill probably 2 or 3 trees and than it starts its dive downward. Is it an issue if those first couple of trees have a min. slope? that run is probably going to have 15 taps.

No, that shouldn't negatively affect your vacuum. It is primarily the amount of elevation drop you have after your taps that is important. Ideal situation is to have taps at the top, then a good drop from there. If you had trees near the bottom, they would have minimal vacuum (if any).

[steve J]

I started installing 3/16 line yesterday And was pleased with how easy it is to work with that line I normally use 30P from leader. I also did what I saw recommended in article and cut a piece of 5/16ths in half that worked perfectly on the 2 hand line tool I bought I had never used a line tool before but other than being awkward to use in the woods they are slick. I am planning on using a stubby with a check valve and I am hopeful this will have me drowning in sap next spring!

[steve J]

I am curious based on Tims report the vacuum on 3/16 when installed on a steep hillside can hit 26 what is normal vacuum for a well designed 5/16 gravity line?

[psparr]

Anybody hear anything yet from maple suppliers on producing 3/16 equipment?

Was looking on mccaster-carr website, and all the "t's" say clamp required. Which ones have you purchased, and did they work?

Thanks.

[steve J]

Back on page 2 Doctor Tim listed the 2 reports the one done by Tim W. at the end he list all the part numbers for the fittings that you will need.

[psparr]

Back on page 2 Doctor Tim listed the 2 reports the one done by Tim W. at the end he list all the part numbers for the fittings that you will need.

Thanks so much!
Read just about every post in the thread, but just skimmed the articles last year.

[StayinLowTech]

McMaster Carr sells 3/16 Tees: #5116K15 and reducers from regular tubing 5/16 to 3/16 but these are labeled for 1/4 to 3/13 at McMaster Carr: #5116K53. I have used both and they work well on the 3/13 and 5/16. Just adapt your tubing tool with some masking tape to use the tool on the 3/16 tubing and fittings.

[Snowy Pass Maple]

I found following FDA-rated polyethylene tubing on the McMaster Site -

5181K42 $0.16/ft - shore hardness D44 - similar to garden hose. There is another type listed as high vac tubing, but at shore D65, it's probably far too hard to take a barb fitting.

Any chance anyone knows the hardness rating on the D&G tubing, or even 30P? I haven't found it on the web.

McMaster doesn't recommend barbed fittings, but maybe that's because they haven't seen a maple producer's 2-handed tool? :lol:

The per-foot price is close to twice the rate of a 500-foot roll, but McMaster's shipping is usually super cheap. And the reason I was looking at this is if you are buying fittings there already, it may be a more cost effective way to go for just trying out a smaller test setup with a couple hundred feet.

[DrTimPerkins]

I found following FDA-rated polyethylene tubing on the McMaster Site -

I believe Tim Wilmot may have tried this tubing and found it to be too hard (at least the D65 type). The other issue is whether or not it has any UV stabilizers in it. If not, it'll deteriorate after a few years in the sun.

[BlueberryHill]

I just bought a couple of rolls of 3/16 directly from D&G in VT and the price was good and they were very helpful on the phone. Shipping was very fair and very fast. They also now carry the 3/16 fittings. I would have just bought everything from them, but I had already ordered the McMaster fittings.

[GotSap?]

I bought 3/16 tubing from U.S. Plastics for 11.47 per 100'. It's HDPE and made by Hudson Extrusions and they had all the fittings also. It's pretty stiff, but I think it should work. Can't wait to try it in a few weeks!

[psparr]

I also bought two rolls from d&g. $45 a roll. Ran one 500' run with 20 taps. My trees are pretty scattered.
Only had two good sap days that week and collected 55 gallons. I had two barrels hooked together in series, but the line connecting them froze and the first barrel was overflowing. Everything is froze up tight for another week or so.

[Snowy Pass Maple]

I believe Tim Wilmot may have tried this tubing and found it to be too hard (at least the D65 type). The other issue is whether or not it has any UV stabilizers in it. If not, it'll deteriorate after a few years in the sun.

Good point - anyone know if the D&G tubing is? I couldn't find any indication that the McMaster or Hudson Extrusions tubing is stabilized.

Sounds like the Hudson Extrusions tubing was a problem for some folks so we'll just try a whole roll of the D&G product. And it sounds like having it run another 100-200 feet down the sloped road on this hill can only help on vacuum!

[Snowy Pass Maple]

Good point - anyone know if the D&G tubing is? I couldn't find any indication that the McMaster or Hudson Extrusions tubing is stabilized.

Sounds like the Hudson Extrusions tubing was a problem for some folks so we'll just try a whole roll of the D&G product. And it sounds like having it run another 100-200 feet down the sloped road on this hill can only help on vacuum!

I'll answer my own question since I just called and got some on order - yes, the D&G tubing is UV stabilized - same light blue as other tubing. They are out of fittings until they get another order in Tuesday - guess it's a pretty hot item!

[psparr]

I have limited experience with tubing. Bought a roll of semi regid last year for drops into buckets. The 3/16 from d&g seems pretty soft. Stretches pretty good, maybe too good.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

If I was a all gravity person after the numbers Tim Wilmott put up at Verona I would definately use 3/16 for drops and 5/16 for lats. Some numbers on Vacuum were amazing!

[heus]

Has anyone heard from Gary R lately? He started this thread.

[Gary R]

Jason, I am impatiently waiting for a warm spell! I've been all ready to go for two weeks.

I'm curios as to what fittings D&G have, a 3/16 X 5/16 X 3/16? It still amazes me as to why this stuff isn't at least on the web site.

Dr. Perkins, does Tim Wilmont have any new information on this system? Thank you!

[Snowy Pass Maple]

Jason, I am impatiently waiting for a warm spell! I've been all ready to go for two weeks.

I'm curios as to what fittings D&G have, a 3/16 X 5/16 X 3/16? It still amazes me as to why this stuff isn't at least on the web site.

Dr. Perkins, does Tim Wilmont have any new information on this system? Thank you!

They were just straight 3/16 tees - they also suggest a short drop of 5/16 tubing long enough for spout replacement going to the the 3/16 transition fitting on the drop line.

Tees are $0.50; transition adapters are $0.30.

If you were going to buy a significant quantity of tees, you might shop around more - I saw them for $0.29 in bags of 100 at freshwatersystems.com.

-Colin

[Machinist67]

check out http://www.valueplastics.com/ for fittings. Best price around. you must order 100 pieces minimum tho! They have 3/16 T,Y, couplings and 3/16X5/16 couplings.

[Paul VT]

Also check US plastics and macmaster Carr. They have some of these also.

[Zipdude66]

check out http://www.valueplastics.com/ for fittings. Best price around. you must order 100 pieces minimum tho! They have 3/16 T,Y, couplings and 3/16X5/16 couplings.

As far as tees have to say that McMaster was the winner for us. We tried the black (fresh water system), clear (substainable supply) and white from McMaster.

[GotSap?]

The HDPE from US Plastics (Hudson Extrusions) is too hard. I can get the barb fittings in, but they pull right out. I'm going to see if they will exchange for softer LLDPE and try that. If not I'll have to get creative with the fittings. Maybe use small hose clamps?

[CampHamp]

A couple of us posted here about our problems last season with the hard HDPE tubing that Tim W described in his paper. The person that launched this thread asked us not to discuss our attempts to get that hard tubing to work out, so perhaps you can message me if you're already invested in that type of tubing and need to make it work out.

[Meaford Maples]

The sap has run great this last week. The 60 taps on 3/16 ran 588gal of sap the last 6 days. The season may only last another week for me. I wanted to post a few pictures. One is my collection tank so I know how much sap there is. Another is the flow of sap on two of my lines and how I wrapped around a tree to take tension of the line going into the tank. I wish I had a big bush to set up.

If anyone else has comments, good or bad, on their 3/16 systems please post it here. We all learn by posting it.
760976107611

Gary, in this post (#65), one of your photos shows how you wrapped the tubing around the tree. It then runs to the barrel. What holds it taught from the tree to the barrel?
Steve

[psparr]

Gary, in this post (#65), one of your photos shows how you wrapped the tubing around the tree. It then runs to the barrel. What holds it taught from the tree to the barrel?
Steve

Not sure how he did it, but I wrapped it around a tree twice and just tucked the end of the line through one of the wraps around the tree. The tubing is pretty soft, but feels grippy against itself. Holds fine.

[Gary R]

Meaford Maples, The barrel has a small hole drilled through the rim above the bung hole. I took a piece of wire and spiraled it around the 3/16 and tied the end to the hole. This keeps tension from the end tree to the barrel.

Using the Hudson 3/16 tubing was part of UVM research. Please post if you have a fix for this tubing. It will help others that have followed their recommendations. What was happening was a couple of guy's were straying to far from the design, like adding a vacuum pump.

For others that have used this design please let us know the good and bad. Thanks!

[lpakiz]

Just thinking out loud here, but could you use a hooked/slide fitting and make a "bushing" out of 5/16? If it works for tubing tools, maybe it would work for slide fittings? Otherwise, transition back to 5/16 near the bottom end tree, and use regular hooked or other end-of-line fittings.

[CampHamp]

OK Gary R, I guess this is the best thread to post my experience with the Hudson 3/16 tubing (much repeated from earlier posts). To be clear, I am not providing a good long-term solution for its use, only some recommendations to help minimize problems for people stuck with it. I have replaced all of mine with the D&G after hearing here nothing but good news about it. I haven't heard that anyone was happy with the Hudson tubing (please speak up if you have or even if you have more permanent fixes than I offer here - I still have unused Hudson tubing!)...

When sap freezes, it expands. This rigid tubing will not bulge so sap left upstream of a frozen line had no space to expand into when it froze. Something would have to give. In my case, tubing popped off of the 3/16 McMaster-Carr fittings (T's and connectors) and I also had some 5/16" drop-line tube pop off of the taps. I also found that many of the fittings would leak air into the line because the barb connections were stressed from this pressure and the tubing is not elastic enough to rebound tight to the fitting.

3/16" Hudson tubing fits tightly into standard 5/16" tubing and, since it is rigid, you can push it in fairly far with 2-hand tubing pliers (~3"). You can use this technique to replace/avoid using any 3/16 connectors or reducers altogether. You use 5/16 for your whole vertical drop to a 5/16 T with two additional 6" sections of 5/16 tubing attached to both horizontal T barbs. Then connect the the 3/16 line runs to these drops by inserting it into these 6" tubes. If you're in the midst of the season and already used 3/16 on the bottom of your drop-line (as I had), then you can put a 6" section of 5/16 on the top of the T as well and "insert" all three connections.

So what does this accomplish? (1) These T connections are solid and will not disconnect at the barbs nor leak air like my 3/16 fittings did. (2) The "inserts" will act like shock absorbers and slide apart as the sap freezes and expands. (3) The frozen sap is able to slide into mainline connections because the diameter is not obstructed by the small fittings, it only gets larger. I noticed this last benefit, when I saw long frozen sap trails, like hard spaghetti, push from the 3/16 into the 5/16 and into mainline (previously, I did not see that and assume that the reducer fitting would narrow the line at the bottom and block the ice flow).

I expect this work-around saved my lines from the constant failures. However, after a couple of freeze cycles, some connections kept sliding outwards and eventually fell out. The good thing was that it seemed like the failures would occur less often and they would often be in the same locations. I could even walk to these spots proactively and re-insert the tubing deep again to prevent a failure. So, things were better but far from good.

The gravity vacuum benefit was not fully realized by me because I never got all the T's replaced and so much air leaked into the sap column.

So if you're stuck with the Hudson tubing, what is the most efficient way to locate a break? The obvious way is to walk the mainline and see if any connections have mostly air in them. This may indicated a break, but could also be caused by leaky fittings or a bad tap hole. Since I wanted to locate the breaks early to avoid losing sap, I connected a transfer pump to suck sap out the bottom of my mainline right after the thaw and then walked the mainline. This made it obvious if there were any breaks, as sap/air rushed through. In the end, I found that I could just leave the pump running during the day to provide the vacuum that I otherwise was losing due to the leaky fittings.

A couple of unproven theories:

1) I used the seasonal check-valve taps. If I had used traditional taps, I wonder if the trees themselves could have absorbed the sap back into their trunks to alleviate enough pressure to prevent failures.
2) As the fittings became more leaky due to fatigue through the season, there was more air in the lines. It is possible that the reduction in failures that I credit the "insert" technique to was also due to less sap expansion/more air which would reduce pressure.
3) If I periodically inserted long pieces of 5/16 in the lines, they might be able to absorb line pressure by expanding/bulging.

[GotSap?]

CampHamp - Thanks for the info. I just heard back from US Plastics, and they are willing to exchange the HDPE. My question, is the LLDPE (44D) soft enough to work?

[Gary R]

CampHamp, thanks for the detail work around for the Hudson tubing. Has anyone tried the plastic double snap clamps? They are cheap but would they hold the tubing from pulling off? http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-hose-clamps/=qh51fd Obviously the best route is to stick with D&G tubing.

I heard back from Tim Wilmont. He spoke recently about the 3/16 method at a few Vermont maple seminars. Did anyone attend? Was there additional information you can add? Maybe maximum number or taps, length of runs,how last season worked out? Thanks for the input!

[Gary R]

Hello everyone, I wanted to provide some results from my second year of using the 3/16 tubing. The sap would still be running here but I pulled everything over a week ago. I tapped in mid Feb. using CDL clear spouts. I collected 23.3 gal of sap per tap for the season. This was much lower than last season. I did have many issues contribute to the low number, mostly my mistakes. I had some squirrel chews to fix early on. Throughout the season I had one line pull out of the collection tank many times and run sap on the ground. The last run was five days long and I made almost half my syrup during it. Sometime during that run 5 of my drops became clogged. This caused no sap collection from 11 taps. The clogs appeared to be woody debris. The only way to fix is to remove the tee and clean. I must have left some shavings in some holes. I may try a can of compressed air to clean next year. I again cleaned with bleach followed by a clean water flush. This was done when the sap was running and it just sucked it up the tubing. I am leaving the top taps open for a while so as much water as possible will drain. Next year I will replace drops and use Leader clear spouts.

Overall it was still good production. Things would have been great if I did my part. Anyone else please post your experiences.

[ryebrye]

So far my year hasn't been as good as yours, but it hadn't been bad for my area.

I've gotten 16 gallons per tap (more than a 5x improvement over a bucket on a roadside tree I have) I and have achieved 29.9 vacuum on two out of my three lines (one had a leak in it somewhere - I had a 26" vacuum on my lowest tap and a 24" vacuum on my highest tap on that line)

I'm going to replace all my tubing next year with some better thought out runs and also expand out to more taps.

I've got about 0.4 gallons syrup per tap - almost exactly matching a larger producer I'm bringing almost all my sap too for processing.

I'm hearing rumors that others are going to make 3/16 tubing and heard at least one manufacturer will make clear spouts that will go into 3/16 tubing.

Has anyone else noticed turbulent flows in their tubing? I've had some interesting bubble behavior during bigger runs - I only had 13 taps on my biggest line.

The d&g tubing is hard to pull tight on a long span without stretching it out too far and elongating out where you were pulling it.

Overall I'm very happy with it. If my trees don't bud this weekend I may get more runs that I'll have to measure sugar content and then either dump on the ground or give away to someone since the producer I've been bringing everything too is going to shut down soon since his sap is staying to get really cloudy. (I only have steam pans... I don't have time to boil down a big run on my own)

Edit: update to 17.5 gallons per tap after today's run. It's still coming, I might get to 20 gallons per tap (of sap, obviously)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Thanks for the clarification, Dr Tim Perkins (aka "the handsome one")! ;)


BTW, I noticed that there are T-reducing fittings that will convert 1/4" directly to the 3/16" run. Do you see a problem using those to eliminate the need for the adapter in the drop line? I don't have a price yet, but it would save me time putting adapters in, if there are no expected issues with that. I don't have a need this season, but others might be interested.

Again, thanks for your research. I expect that it will make these small, hill-side runs much more productive without the need for vacuum equipment.

Did you find a source for T's that have 1/4" barbed on top and 3/16 on bottom 2 barbs?

[davrhods]

Has anyone tried this setup with reds. I have hill side 700 ' drop over 1500 ' in length predominantly red maples .

[Gary R]

A third of my trees are red's. It will work fine. I'd hate to walk up and down that hill!

[StayinLowTech]

Just use the 3/16 tee by McMaster Carr #5116K15 and then the reducer #5116K53 which works to 5/16 although it is called 3/16 to 1/4.