Electric Releaser and Submersible Pumps

[GeneralStark]

I may purchase a lightly used electric releaser for a good price. My single mechanical will be too small for the expansion I am planning over the next couple years so I'm looking to upgrade. Clearly there are advantages to electric releasers but also disadvantages. This releaser has a Gould jet pump but the current owner says it won't handle 27" of vac which is what I will be running. After researching here, it seems that this is a common problem. It also seems that some have overcome the issues with external pumps by using an internal submersible pump. I have not seen this unit yet but will be checking it out soon. I believe it is a Bernard 12" X 24".

Any thoughts on using these units on high vacuum? Is there a submersible pump that will fit inside one of these units or is that generally being done on the larger releasers?

[Tmeeeh]

I had this idea too. Several people are doing this. I talked to someone who is using a submersible well pump lying on it's side inside a 4" pipe and underneath and connected to a horizontal releaser with a 2" pipe. Be sure to tilt the pump so it slopes up at least 10 degrees so it can burp the air out. He is using a 3 phase pump with a variable frequency drive and a float switch so the pump speeds up and slows down to maintain a preset sap level inside the releaser. With a high head pump it is possible to pump sap a long way from inside the releaser. Be sure to have a plan for when the power goes out though.

I plan to build a releaser with a 10"X36" vertical vacuum transfer tank with a Goulds 16SE0512 pump inside. I found a few used ones. They are multi stage and pump 10GPM@100'head. http://waterpumpspro.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=57_20_98&products_id=1186 Another option is http://www.tuhorse.us/ and FW Webb quoted me $265 for http://www.sta-rite.com/ResidentialProduct_sr_se_ef_10DOM05121.aspx These are all stainless pumps thatsit vertically and pull the liquid in from the bottom and can drain the releaser down to 2.5".

Rather than drill and tap the vacuum releaser tank. Some are using uniseals http://www.aussieglobe.com/uniseal1.htm These apparently hold vacuum and pressure up to 70PSI. Use a hole saw to cut the specified size hole, pop in the uniseal rubber doughnut and press in the proper sized schedule 40 pipe. I'm told they work really well.
Best of luck

[Mark]

From what I have seen they are using submersible sump pumps. If you plan to use a well pump make sure it never goes dry. They rely on the liquid for cooling and heat up and burn out quick.

[GeneralStark]

From what I have seen they are using submersible sump pumps. If you plan to use a well pump make sure it never goes dry. They rely on the liquid for cooling and heat up and burn out quick.

Like this kind of thing?: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200448669_200448669

[Tmeeeh]

Look at the performance curve of the pump. If you have 28" of vacuum in the releaser the pump will need to generate nearly 14PSI before the sap will begin to flow out of the releaser. 1 PSI=.433 of static head so 14 PSI=32 feet of static head is needed to begin to move sap out of the releaser.. The wayne submersible pump at northern tools shows a maximum head of 22 feet. You would need a pump that can overcome the 32 feet of static head plus whatever dynamic head would develop in the pipe to the holding tank. There are dynamic head calculators on the web. You enter the gallons per minute, pipe size, pipe material, and total elevation. Once you know your total head at your desired gallons per minute find a pump that has a performance curve to match your need. Stainless pumps are pricier than cast iron but are probably a better choice for pumping sap.

[GeneralStark]

Look at the performance curve of the pump. If you have 28" of vacuum in the releaser the pump will need to generate nearly 14PSI before the sap will begin to flow out of the releaser. 1 PSI=.433 of static head so 14 PSI=32 feet of static head is needed to begin to move sap out of the releaser.. The wayne submersible pump at northern tools shows a maximum head of 22 feet. You would need a pump that can overcome the 32 feet of static head plus whatever dynamic head would develop in the pipe to the holding tank. There are dynamic head calculators on the web. You enter the gallons per minute, pipe size, pipe material, and total elevation. Once you know your total head at your desired gallons per minute find a pump that has a performance curve to match your need. Stainless pumps are pricier than cast iron but are probably a better choice for pumping sap.

I hear ya. I was just using that pump as an example of a "submersible sump pump" as "submersible pump" means different things to different people. I have no intention of using that pump or any "sump pump" for that matter as it won't fit in this unit and most are low head.

I did end up buying the releaser for a very reasonable price. With this unit, I think I will be looking at setting it up using a submersible well pump in a separate chamber as you described above. Considering the price of the unit, purchasing a well pump and fittings will still make for a very inexpensive electric releaser. The Uniseal technology is very interesting and may prove useful for this application. Thanks for that and the other info.

Is the Goulds 16SE0512 a submersible well pump? I searched but it didn't come up. Will it fit inside the 10x36 vacuum chamber, or in a separate chamber?

I like the idea of the 3 phase pump on a vfd but it might be a bit more than I need for my budget at this point.

[rchase]

i have a high head sump pump that goes to 34 ft head and it will only pump out at about 25" vac. i had to crack a small valve to put a small leak in to keep it from going above that. it works great at 25" vac.

[Amber Gold]

I bought a 36" lapierre electric releaser and a sta-rite s/s submersible pump to put inside. How/where should the pump outlet from the releaser? Top or side? The pump has a 3-4" thick black piece on the bottom...does it serve a purpose? I'm wondering if it can be removed, so the pump rests on the bottom of the releaser and can pump it almost dry.

Thanks

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

I bought a new CDL releaser last year. It came with a Starite pump. It pumps out the side and has a check valve right outside of the releaser. The black piece on the bottom was cut down from CDL. I like the releaser. The only downfall is I can't find a way to completely drain the pump. Even if I take it out and turn every way in will retain water. I keep the releaser heated the entire season and take the pump out in the off season and put it in my RO room. I cut the wire and spliced it together with wire nuts so it can be taken out in a couple minutes.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks Jeremy. Cut down, or cut completely off? Thanks for the heads up on draining because I wouldn't have known and it'd have frozen.

[Amber Gold]

So I bought an Uniseal for 1.25" PVC which says to drill a 2" hole. I drilled a 2" hole in the side of the electric releaser and 1.25" pipe doesn't fit...no way is it going too. A 1" PVC almost fits perfect...it's good enough that I could make it work with some caulking. Am I missing something? It looks like the uniseals are meant for a thin walled tank.

Since the hole's already drilled, I think my options are to use a 1.5" PVC pipe (O.D. of 1.9") and buy some epoxy glue to hold it in there, use the 1" pipe with some caulking, or maybe beveling the inside hole to put a taper on it so the uniseal has some room to expand. I'm committed to the hole size I have. Thoughts??

Thanks

[lpakiz]

Know anybody with a lathe who can machine a stub of PVC pipe (or a glued on connector) to fit tightly? The rest of the pipe can be original diameter.

[unc23win]

Maybe you can get it tapped and put in a reducing bushing?

[Tmeeeh]

I used liquid soap to lubricate and a rubber mallet. It took some convincing and I was able to pound the pipe through. Not sure of the tank wall thickness. I did call uniseal for advice.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks for the input. Glad to see it should work.

The uniseal fits the pipe when it's not in the releaser. When it does, the OD of the uniseal is ~2.25"...the directions say to drill a 2" hole. I did lube the uniseal and pvc pipe with releaser RO lubricate...maybe something else would work better??

I don't think tapping threads in would work. I think a 2" threaded fitting would require a hole smaller than 2". I tapered fitting to start with might work. I did bevel the end of the pvc pipe a bit to help...not sure if it did.

Maybe I'll try convincing it a little more to get it to fit...maybe even bring the uniseal inside to get it nice and warm...more flexible.

[maplecrest]

josh put the ky to it. needs a good lube job and elbow grease to use the uniseals. i dont use them any more. they work loose over time. gone back to threading and also use stainless steel pitmans for the well pump to put in and take out in off season

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

Josh, The black section on the bottom of my pump was cut down from CDL. It may be able to be removed, but I have not looked at it closely enough to be sure.

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

You may also be able to use a bulkhead fitting in the 2" hole. The internal threads would probably be about the size you need.

[Amber Gold]

Problem solved. I tried again last night lubing and beating the pipe in, but it didn't work, so I trimmed the uniseal a bit on the inside edge so I still have a snug fit with the pipe inserted. Got the pump plumbed up and should be able to test run the pump shed this weekend.

Jeff, not sure where I'd get a pitman, so I used a union. With how hard that was to get in there, shocked the work themselves loose. If I'd thought of it, I should've gotten the releaser with a threaded fitting at the top from Lapierre.

I don't think a bulkhead fitting would work because of the curve of the releaser. I cut most of the black portion on the end of the pump off with a miter saw...dropped the pump about 1.5".

[Big John]

the pump to use is the sta rite dominator 20 GPM it will pump over 20 gpm @ 27". You can buy it at your local webbs. around $300 webbs in rutland stocks them now. They are bottom suck, and run dry technology. One pump is good for about 3000 taps. I have 10 of these machines in operation. i have a special fitting desinged to get the sap out, hold the pump up and never leak. it is not a pitless! We build these for $3500. with two pumps installed. on seprate floats. I can tell you how to build it as well. there is another fitting you will need to get the power and float wires in and out.