streamaway

[7810hunting]

I currently have a 600 tap system using a 2x6 evaporator at about 30-35 gal per hour.would like anybodys input on investing in a steamaway.

[Thad Blaisdell]

You would be better off buying a larger evaporator, or an RO. A steamaway at roughly $5000, crazy. RO would serve you better.

[jrmaple]

The steamaway would allow you to evaporator about 55 gallons of sap an hour + or - of few, I have heard of some people hitting about 65 gallons an hour with forced air and good insulation and airtight front. The steamaway would allow you to increase your evaporation rate without needing to expand the size of your sugar house like a RO would or a bigger evaporator. If you were to buy a steamaway now, you would be able to handle the amount of taps you have out right now, and then once you expand your # of taps again you can get an RO without needing to buy another evaporator, it would allow you to stay small while increasing your production. Good luck.

[tuckermtn]

RO is the best efficency upgrade hands down...

[lew]

I'm with Thad. A steamaway is an awsome devise however let's look at the numbers. Average day = 600 gallons. Now you boil about 20 hours. With a steam away you will boil a little over 12 hours (600/(30x1.65)). with an RO you could concentrate to 8% and boil 5 hours or concentrate to 12% and boil 2.5 hours. All for the same investment. Yes their will be some extra costs involved in getting the RO set up initially, But it is a mcu better initial investment in my opinion. Cost wise I think you could pick up a used RO, tanks, extra plumbing for the same cost of a new steam away. IN the future when you grow, maybe you might want to add the steam away?

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

i think i saw stats for a 2x6 steam away at around 17 gal GPH now what sugar content they are figuring that on I dont know. But once you (if) add a RO the steam away will loose efficiancy because the sugar content will be higher going in so the amount of GPH will drop so it will be a 4600.00 pre heater.
Thad and lew are on it, im hoping to have a small ro by this coming year.

[RustyBuckets]

How the heck does sugar content have anything to do with how much it steams away? If theres water in the sap theres water in the sap and water in the sap means steam coming off the steamaway if steams coming off the steamaway guess what you are increasing your gph. You talk about high efficiency arches and getting the most out of your rig all the time that is exactly what a steamaway does makes your evap more efficient by capturing wasted heat sources. Ro or no Ro the steamaway will not be less efficient. You confuse the heck out of me sometimes.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Flat is right,,,,, kind of. Lets use Lew's numbers. When you boil raw sap it with a steamaway you will boil for 12 hours.... so steamaway is working for 12 hours. It is more effective. Now when you add 12% sap, you dont boil as long there by reducing the effectivness of the steamaway. There is no way it can do as much work in 2 hours as it can in 12. It is still as efficient I guess for the time it is working but just not as useful overall. My money would still be on an RO.

[Grade "A"]

This info is from Leaders 2012 catalog and the stats are pretty much what jrmaple said. A 2x6 with a 4' flue pan boils on average 30gph and with the steamaway the total you will get 50gph. So their saying the steamaway adds 20gph. They do list a standard steamaway for $4,740.00 and an enhanced one for 6,075.00 but do not say which one the stats came from.

I do like that idea of boiling 66% faster with the same amount of fuel/wood, but I would buy an RO first. I made my RO but with that I am taking care of 850 tap all on vacuum. For an example I had 1200 gallons of 2% sap one morning and after I got done putting it through the RO (more than one pass) I had about 175 gallons of 14% sap. So with the RO I boiled everything in 5 hours instead of 34 hours without it (or 24 hour if I had a steamaway).

just my 2 cents

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

How the heck does sugar content have anything to do with how much it steams away? If theres water in the sap theres water in the sap and water in the sap means steam coming off the steamaway if steams coming off the steamaway guess what you are increasing your gph. You talk about high efficiency arches and getting the most out of your rig all the time that is exactly what a steamaway does makes your evap more efficient by capturing wasted heat sources. Ro or no Ro the steamaway will not be less efficient. You confuse the heck out of me sometimes.
at 2% it takes 43 gal sap to one gal syrup (approx). if your boiling concentrate lets say 10%, thats 8.6 gal (approx) of sap for every gal syrup. so the sap is not in the steam away long enough to give you 17 or 20 GPH, it would probably be more like 14gph because you would be processing the sap quicker it has less time to evaporate in the steam away.
So grade A says leader is giving the number of 50gph, so 50/43 thats 1.162790698 gph syrup 4 to 6k investment, if you concentrate to 10% at 30gph no steam away thats 3.488372093gph syrup 6to8k investment]\

[RustyBuckets]

I guess you need to go back and read what I wrote. My point is it does not become a preheater like you claim. It STILL makes your evaporator more effecient. Its is not a bad purchase at all. Yes RO might be a bigger bang for your buck but the steamaway makes your evap more efficient and the return on your investment is not loss. You need to properly size your syrup pan ratio to flue pan ratio when running an RO and steamaway, this is where people need to do their homework and look into the future of there tap capability. Fly by night purchases and going on guesses is wasted money. Also the the resale value on a steamaway holds stronger than any other investment. How many used steamaways have you seen for sale? How many RO's? Now look at the amount of money Ro's are getting used verseus new and then look at how much more value a used steamaway holds. A steamaway is also a cooking process not manipulation of water removal. Steamaway has ZERO additional cost to operate, RO thats not the case at all. Steamaway takes up a zero additional floor space RO not the case. Theres no need for a whole bunch of extra tanks to purchase and keep clean, Steamaway not the case. Expense of heating the RO room, steamaway not the case. ROing takes additional time that almost all sugarmakers do not take into account they only talk about how fast they boiled of a tank of concentrate, Steamaway not the case. RO puts some in the category of another expense of new construction cost, Steamaway not the case. Im just trying to figure out your philosophy on this. One day your saying theres no flavor in RO'd syrup and the next your saying your hoping to get an RO. On 125 taps theres no justifying an RO or steamaway unless your in the business of losing money. Like I said your confusing. When you actually own both an RO and steamaway come talk to us. They work very well hand in hand as I can assure you that much. My first purchase was the Steamaway, it allowed me to tap more trees and made me more money faster to save up for a new RO that did not need additional money put into it to get it online.

[wiam]

Any steamaway I have seen had an electric cord. Is your electricity free?. If an RO is sized properly to feed the evaporator there is not really extra time involved.

[maplwrks]

A Steamaway will gain you 75% more evaporation---An RO will gain you 400% more evaporation. There is nothing wrong with a steam away, just you will get more bang for your buck with an RO.

[jrmaple]

Like I said before, in my mind the steam away is a better first purchase and you'll get your return faster, and it won't take up more time or space in the sugar house, you can stay small while growing and getting bigger. But I do agree the RO is a good purchase as well but I think the steam away on a 2x6 would be a better choice. Good luck.

[Thad Blaisdell]

A steamaway may gain you 75% but not on concentrated sap. I have both RO and steamaway, and would not in a million years have a steamaway again. RO all the way. Basically the only thing I use my steamaway for is a preheater and gives me unlimited hot water. Other than that it is just a pain in the arse to clean.

[sapman]

I'm very glad I have a Steamaway along with RO. Steamaway is much easier for me to clean than the flue pan, as it is drained after every boil anyway. My flue pan didn't need cleaning once this year, as long as I flooded the steamaway with permeate every couple days. Actually, I'm glad I bought the steamaway first, as I might not have once I got the RO. I boil 100~gph, raw or concentrate, compared to 65~ bareback evaporator, so to me that's a big plus. But honestly, doing it over, I probably would go with the RO first, given my current tap count, and add the steamaway down the road.

[RustyBuckets]

Any steamaway I have seen had an electric cord. Is your electricity free?. If an RO is sized properly to feed the evaporator there is not really extra time involved. You have a good point on the electricity but the cost to run the blower is very very very small. Now the cost to run the RO is much larger in comparison. And there is extra time invovled whether it is sized properly or not. Do you not have to clean and maintain an RO? That all takes time as well. Theres more time involved with an RO that is never talked about. Which is misleading. Its not as simple as hitting a switch and start filling the head tank.

[wiam]

You have a good point on the electricity but the cost to run the blower is very very very small. Now the cost to run the RO is much larger in comparison. And there is extra time invovled whether it is sized properly or not. Do you not have to clean and maintain an RO? That all takes time as well. Theres more time involved with an RO that is never talked about. Which is misleading. Its not as simple as hitting a switch and start filling the head tank.

My RO is washed most nights by the time the lights go out in the sugarhouse.

I always thought a steamaway would be first, until I bought a 2x6 and a used RO. That changed my mind. If the price of a steamaway would get reasonable I could see owning one. The water removal/$ is just not there.

[Bucket Head]

I too bought a used RO, after thinking about building a steamaway. I still would'nt mind having one- I like the idea of endless hot water for washing. However, the RO was the best decision and I hav'nt looked back. Yes, they require cleaning, but it is'nt like cleaning out a steamaway. Yes, they require electric, but so do your lights, draft blower, and whatever else you have on while boiling- which will all be on while you boil for hours and hours.

When you look at how much less time your boiling and how much wood you have left over at the end of the season, you'll wonder why you did'nt get an RO sooner. I know I wondered. After your first season with an RO, your going to think about the countless hours and cords of wood that you 'wasted' over the years without an RO. It was pretty sobering for my father and I when we looked at it like that.

[nymapleguy607]

I have been debating or getting a steamaway or an RO possibly after next year. The way I see it is the RO is like adding automation to your process. It can be concentrating while I gather more sap or work in the woods. With a steamaway your only getting the benefit while you are in the sap house. Price wise I could purchase an RO for Ray Gingerich for around $3200 where a steamaway would cost about $4500. There seems to be less maintenence with a steamaway, but overall syrup through put is lower. If a steamaway would give you 65GPH with 2% sap you would pull off around 1.5 gph. With an RO even concentrating to 8% and the evaporator at 35gph you would be taking off around 3.25 gph of syrup. So an RO is looking like a very good option.

[batsofbedlam]

Before you consider buying a steam away, spend a day in a sugar house that has one. You might find that the noise it makes is not worth the investment.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

A R.O can't be understood until you own and use one. They are working while you are sleeping, eating dinner or working in the woods. A stemaaway is not. All in all a R.O is going to be far better than a Stemaaway at this point. Yes they are more $. As far as cleaning hit a couple of buttons turn one or two valves and your done. I would go with a R.O any day. Not saying a Steamaway is a bad thing but they aren't even in the same class. Whe you stand at the draw off and are drawing constant you will be very happy. As far as flavor with a R.Od syup there is know difference period.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I guess you need to go back and read what I wrote. My point is it does not become a preheater like you claim. Steamaway has ZERO additional cost to operate, RO thats not the case at all.
ROing takes additional time that almost all sugarmakers do not take into account they only talk about how fast they boiled of a tank of concentrate, Steamaway not the case. RO puts some in the category of another expense of new construction cost, Steamaway not the case. Im just trying to figure out your philosophy on this. One day your saying theres no flavor in RO'd syrup and the next your saying your hoping to get an RO. On 125 taps theres no justifying an RO or steamaway unless your in the business of losing money. Like I said your confusing. When you actually own both an RO and steamaway come talk to us. They work very well hand in hand as I can assure you that much. My first purchase was the Steamaway, it allowed me to tap more trees and made me more money faster to save up for a new RO that did not need additional money put into it to get it online.


A steamaway may gain you 75% but not on concentrated sap. I have both RO and steamaway, and would not in a million years have a steamaway again. RO all the way. Basically the only thing I use my steamaway for is a preheater and gives me unlimited hot water. Other than that it is just a pain in the arse to clean.

1. Like Thad said once you get up to 20% concentrate the sap is moving so quick through the steam away it really isnt efficient any more.
2. no additional cost? huh thats funny my brother in laws has a blower which needs electricity.
3. ro takes additional time? I know a sugar maker he turns his on and goes and walks his taps, oh yea his evaporator is also running.
4. well for your info I have since tasted 10 to 13% ro syrup (Randy B's) and it has very good flavor, now for Thad and his 20% I dont know just like giving him sh** for tastless syrup I know nothing about and he knows it.
5. 125 taps? sorry I didn't update all my stats here, i had 189 this year, adding another 50 to 60 in Hampton NY and prob. 75 to 100 here in VT. That doesnt count 300+ on a sap sucker a friend is going to bring to me. So if everything falls n place im looking at over 600 next year. That is the reason for talking about a small ro, either home built or new. I only plan on going to 6% thats approx 190 gal of concentrate I will be boiling off.
6. to own both ro and steam away? im gonna take Thads advice and not waste my money on a large preheater, and like maplewrks says, 75% VS 400% DOESNT TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO FIGURE THAT OUT
Ill come in here and talk when ever I feel like it, I can give you my address if you would like and come visit me :) have a beer or two or three ...........................

So RustyBucket I hope I cleared up how I think with you (now you really gonna be messed up hahahahahahaha)

[jrmaple]

Did you consider the MAX flue pan? The last I heard it was on sale for around $3500, it has 11 1/2" flues, you can get a combo pan (half drop flue, half raised flue), or you can get all raised or all drop flues I believe. I think with the MAX flue and a preheater that you could really boil some sap, or maybe the MAX flue and a steam away.....

[Thad Blaisdell]

Before you consider buying a steam away, spend a day in a sugar house that has one. You might find that the noise it makes is not worth the investment.

If you put the blower far enough away its not a great problem but it still is constant noise

[RustyBuckets]

I guess the beers explain it all to me know. LOL One thing I do have to ask is what age is the preheater you have so much knowledge on but never used or run one let alone an RO. Older preheaters and not the enhanced ones do not have the surface area the new ones have. What drives me nuts is people replying to threads that have zero personal experience with the question at hand. Going by what you see in a boil off or at another sugarmakers during a tour hardly qualifies as giving the OP the answers that he is looking for instead of steering them into a direction based on little experience or knowledge about the subject. Its leaves little credibility when someone has not used or experienced all the ins and outs of a particular subject and has the potential to guide them down the wrong path. And again for the 4th time the amount of electric the blower uses is so small you have to look hard at the electric bill to see the difference. The other thing that I have already mentioned is you need to size your syrup pan properly when using and Ro and Steamaway, doing so will keep sap in the preheater longer and increase its efficiency when using both. So when you have used an enhanced preheater come back and tell us all about it. Also if you read back to everyone of my post you will see I never once said the RO is a bad purchase. Nor is the steamaway, each one has a purpose and each one serves it very welln Now shall we go back to the original OP's question about buying a steamaway with 600taps on a 2x6? No where in that original question did I read anything about buying an RO and Steamaway, he simply asked about a steamaway. It makes zero sense from a financial aspect to be purchasing both with his setup unless he just wants to be the cool sugarmaker on the block with all the toys and not make money on his investments. Justifying the cost of a new RO and the additional cost of maintaining and operating one with a 600 tap setup is not very cost effective just to save time when the steamaway will be a one time cost and get him a very nice setup that will handle the 600 taps without problem. Oh and I almost forgot the extra $4.80 a month to run the blower. Some people actually like to make a profit with smaller operations and not piss money into the wind. Until everyone is in the OP shoes and knows his profit margins, operation, amount of money they have to invest potential tap count, time they have to boil, the best we can do for them is share the knowledge we have experienced, not a guess.

[Thad Blaisdell]

so now we are talking about an "enhanced" steamaway. The only thing it enhances is the bottom line of leader. 6075.00. On a 2x6 give me a freakin break. That to me is money thrown out the window. All that for a whopping 20 gal per hour increase..... You could buy another evaporator for that and do better..... or even a much bigger evaporator. An RO on the other hand, well a bunch of numbers have been thrown out there already. There are quite a few different maple producers that have made their own for about $1100. plus tanks. So lets see, on the best day if you have vac you will get 1200 gal. with the "enhanced" it will take 24 hours to boil..... screw that. Just doubling the concentrate and bringing it down to 600 gal will take 20 hours, double again 10 hours. Now that is doable. On this forum opinions are like %$#@$%%^ everybody has one. Things will work for one and not another. So be it. But dont get stuck on one thing because that is what you own and have to try and justify your purchase.

[philkasza]

We just put our system in last year. We thought about just doing the evaporator the first year then getting the RO the second with the money from the first year. Well it ended up after putting the numbers in the calculator we concluded an RO was a must for the first year. I don't have a steam away so I cant talk about that but I can talk about the RO. We processed sap 4 times faster and with fuel savings for the evap. we paid for a shy $8000 of the RO in one season especially because the sap was average 1.4%. Thanks RO!!!!!!!!! There has been alot of talk on here about extra time that we don't count for the RO BUT THE "EXTRA" TIME IS WAY WAY WAY LESS THAN IF WE WERE PAYING LABOR FOR WATCHING THE EVAPORATOR FOR FOUR TIMES LONGER. and by the way I think it was somewhere around $200 to run the Ro and heat the room to make that 8000 dollars. So I don't know about a steamaway but I am totally sold on an RO. Sam

[batsofbedlam]

I don't even hear the blower on my steam away, its the bubbling of the air blowing into the steam away that drowns out everything else.

[Meridian Maples]

I don't know if this is completely true, but I was told by a Lappiere salesman that they may be making air injection illegal in the near future? Now wouldn't that effect the use of steamaways? He told me that for organic certification in Canada you can't have air injection. I'm not for sure how much truth is to his claim though?? Has anyone else heard of this? This may be a factor on deciding to go with a steamaway??

[DrTimPerkins]

Like everything else, a Steam-Away is a tool. It can be suitable for some operations, and not suitable for others. Not worth a big argument and hard-feelings.

As far as air injection.....to my knowledge, it is currently not allowed for organic maple production in Canada, but is allowed for non-organic production. This probably has more to do with the fact that the organic market is predominantly for darker syrup than anything else. There isn't much point in making a bunch of light organic syrup when the market is for dark organic syrup. There aren't any valid scientific reasons to ban air injection....although that doesn't mean it might not happen.

[Jeff E]

Isn't air injection referring to air going into the sap or syrup pans, not the steam pan?

I added a steam pan 2 years ago and love it. My evaporator, a 3x12, could do about 100 gph, and with the steam pan I am up to 165gph. The big reason for adding it was that I already had the RO, the greatest effeciency tool, and wanted to increase the evaporation capacity. My sugar house would need MAJOR work to put in a larger evaporator, so this was an easy decision.

When I concentrate to 8%, I put in 50 deg concentrate into the steam pan, and when it hits my float box on the evaporator it is 9.5% and 200 deg. The boil is amazing. And of coarse, the harder it boils, the better the steam pan performs.

Cant argue the math: the RO is the best effeciency gain, but there are positive reasons to look at the steam pan as well.

4000 gallons of 2% sap=40hrs of simple evaporation, 2.3 gallons of syrup per hour.
4000 gallons of 2% sap RO'ed to 8% (1 pass)=10hrs of simple evaporation, 9.3 gallons of syrup per hr.
4000 gallons of 2% sap RO'ed to 8%, into steam pan=6hrs of evaporation, 15.5 gallons of syrup per hr.

Better have a good filtering system!!!

[DrTimPerkins]

Isn't air injection referring to air going into the sap or syrup pans, not the steam pan?

Yes, that is the normal way air injection is defined. Some might consider a steam pan to be air injection as well, but generally it is not considered simply an air injection device. Rather (and more correctly in my opinion), it is considered an evaporator accessory more akin to a preheater or piggyback device.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Isn't air injection referring to air going into the sap or syrup pans, not the steam pan?

I added a steam pan 2 years ago and love it. My evaporator, a 3x12, could do about 100 gph, and with the steam pan I am up to 165gph. The big reason for adding it was that I already had the RO, the greatest effeciency tool, and wanted to increase the evaporation capacity. My sugar house would need MAJOR work to put in a larger evaporator, so this was an easy decision.

When I concentrate to 8%, I put in 50 deg concentrate into the steam pan, and when it hits my float box on the evaporator it is 9.5% and 200 deg. The boil is amazing. And of coarse, the harder it boils, the better the steam pan performs.

Cant argue the math: the RO is the best effeciency gain, but there are positive reasons to look at the steam pan as well.

4000 gallons of 2% sap=40hrs of simple evaporation, 2.3 gallons of syrup per hour.
4000 gallons of 2% sap RO'ed to 8% (1 pass)=10hrs of simple evaporation, 9.3 gallons of syrup per hr.
4000 gallons of 2% sap RO'ed to 8%, into steam pan=6hrs of evaporation, 15.5 gallons of syrup per hr.

Better have a good filtering system!!!

But you forgot a very important number. For less money you could have added a tower to your RO.

4000 gallons of 2% sap RO'ed to 20% 4 hrs at 23 gal per hour.

[bees1st]

I used a piggy back pan this last season and am MOFGA certified organic. Their rules require that you filter incoming air with a carbon filter. And keep a log on when you change them.

[DrTimPerkins]

I used a piggy back pan this last season and am MOFGA certified organic. Their rules require that you filter incoming air with a carbon filter. And keep a log on when you change them.

Organic rules for maple production in the U.S. vary by certifying agency. There are no national organic standards for maple. In Canada, the rules can still vary somewhat by certifying agency, and I believe that air injection is not allowed for organic maple production universally per the national organic maple standard.

[bees1st]

This always did strike me as odd,that air injection would not be allowed. After all we breathe air 24/7 .

[Brent]

From my experience the RO is the best choice hands down. The Steamaway on our 2-1/2 x 8 dumps about 60 GPH of hot distilled water, which is pretty neat BUT

You never get to see what's happening in the flue pan until the season is over and you have to take the whole rig apart for cleaning. On the size we have, that's really a hassle working by myself. On a 2 x 6 it will be easier but you
won't pick it up by yourself, so hoists or help are going to be needed.

Steamaways are a real bitch to clean. You can't even do a good job of cleaning them with a pressure washer. What you can't clean out between boils may lead to ropy sap / syrup. Been there, done that.

The RO will give you much more bang for your buck. I think the RO takes less time during the season to manage than trying to clean the steamaway. The downside could be providing enough power. But you need a pretty powerful blower on the steamaway and that blower is much too noisy for my liking. Almost as noisy as an RO.

If you have visitors to the sugar shack that want to see boiling, they will be disappointed. With the steamaway on you can't see nothin' We have a window in ours but it does not give you any sense of what's going on inside.

I'm almost ready to sell the steamaway and go with a hood. The RO and steamaway almost make things go too fast for a one man band to keep up with. Especially this year with the huge increase in sugar sand plugging up filters.

[Mark]

With air injection I use no defoamer. What is everyone using when they are organic?

[ennismaple]

With air injection I use no defoamer. What is everyone using when they are organic?

Organic safflower oil, I think.

[bees1st]

I use organic canola oil ,pam in a spray can, quick and easy. You don't need much.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Before you consider buying a steam away, spend a day in a sugar house that has one. You might find that the noise it makes is not worth the investment. I don't have any problem with the noise mine makes. Blower is mounted outside of the main room, so noise is very minimal. I love my steamaway and would ever hate to boil without it again. I know Brent was complaining he couldn't see in his flue pan with it but with a window and a light, it makes seeing in the flue pan pretty cool because I couldn't see in it before with a hood on top of it. As far as cleaning it, I ran 3400 gallon sap thru mine without cleaning it and made all light syrup and then put a gallon of vinegar in it and it cleaned up pretty much by itself in a short time and yes it definitely keeps the flue pan cleaner.

They will never do what an RO will do but there shouldn't basically ever be any maintenace cost to them other than about 2 gallon of vinegar to clean them with every year which costs $ 3.58 at Sams Club. I went from averaging about 60 gph to now doing 90 to 95 gph with the steamaway and during the peak of the boil it will run 105 to 108 gph.