2" Dryline

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

I am getting ready to set up a new woods with about 2500 taps. I am going to run a wet/dry line and come off of those with 1". I was going to use 1.25" and 1.5" on the wet/dry. I just recently bough the notebook by Steve Childs at Cornell and can't believe the line loss numbers for even 1.5" mainline. My wet/dry will be approximately 2800 feet. I was wondering if many producers are going up to a 2" dry line in the woods to overcome the line loss. I know it sound like overkill on this size of a woods, but looking at the charts in the notebook, it may be worth it. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Tmeeeh]

Just got a quote for 500' rolls of black 100psi pipe from FW Webb at $360.00 each and 1,000' rolls of 1.5" for $444.00. Ask for maple producer pricing. I have 1,200 taps on a wet dry system that starts out at 1.5" over1.25" for 1,000 feet then goes to 1.24" over 1" the rest of the way and it works great. You have more taps though. Assuming Steve Childs' charts are correct.. there is a limit to how much air you can pull through a pipe regardless of how big the pump is. The assumption is that money saved in initial installation cost of smaller pipe will be lost every season due to lower yields. We are about to put in 2,000' of vacuum line to a releaser the first half will be 2" and the rest 1.5". If you can be in the woods daily checking and repairing leaks you can get away with less than the recommended CFM and still get good yields.

[sjdoyon]

We installed our wet/dry line last year and started off from the sugarhouse with 2" lines for about the first 3/4 mile. We then continued the next half mile with 1 1/2" and 1 1/4. We regret using the 1 1/4. We should have stayed with at least 1 1/2". We have about 3,000 taps on this one section and just added another 500 taps. Problem we ran into this spring was volume of sap coming down the lines was so great it pushed the sap up into our dry lines. We believe not using the 1 1/4" line would have alleviated this problem. Sap still gets to the sugarhouse but probably impacting efficiency.
I am getting ready to set up a new woods with about 2500 taps. I am going to run a wet/dry line and come off of those with 1". I was going to use 1.25" and 1.5" on the wet/dry. I just recently bough the notebook by Steve Childs at Cornell and can't believe the line loss numbers for even 1.5" mainline. My wet/dry will be approximately 2800 feet. I was wondering if many producers are going up to a 2" dry line in the woods to overcome the line loss. I know it sound like overkill on this size of a woods, but looking at the charts in the notebook, it may be worth it. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Thad Blaisdell]

We installed our wet/dry line last year and started off from the sugarhouse with 2" lines for about the first 3/4 mile. We then continued the next half mile with 1 1/2" and 1 1/4. We regret using the 1 1/4. We should have stayed with at least 1 1/2". We have about 3,000 taps on this one section and just added another 500 taps. Problem we ran into this spring was volume of sap coming down the lines was so great it pushed the sap up into our dry lines. We believe not using the 1 1/4" line would have alleviated this problem. Sap still gets to the sugarhouse but probably impacting efficiency.

The problem is not the size of the 1.25 inch line. The problem is freezing lines, leaks, and sags. If you are filling 1.25 on 3000 taps then the least of your problems is the sap in the dry line. Your problem will be how to handle all the sap coming into the sugarhouse.

[Mark]

I am getting ready to set up a new woods with about 2500 taps. I am going to run a wet/dry line and come off of those with 1". I was going to use 1.25" and 1.5" on the wet/dry. I just recently bough the notebook by Steve Childs at Cornell and can't believe the line loss numbers for even 1.5" mainline. My wet/dry will be approximately 2800 feet. I was wondering if many producers are going up to a 2" dry line in the woods to overcome the line loss. I know it sound like overkill on this size of a woods, but looking at the charts in the notebook, it may be worth it. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

If it is 2800 feet to the first tap you may need the 2" for the first 2800 feet and can start reducing as you pass some taps. If the taps start close to the releaser and the last tap is 2800 feet away I would use what you were planning.

I use a lot of 2". I have a 2" air line to a releaser 2800 feet away that 5000 taps run into and am going to add two more 2" lines this fall for a total of three. It is that or a glued white plastic 4" pipe. I will be adding a few thousand more taps on that releaser and I know I need much more volume since it is too small now.

[spud]

If you can afford it I would run the 2 inch dry line with a 1 1/2 wet. I bought the book from Steve also and if I read it right you will lose 25 CFMs just in your one inch lines and tubing. You will lose about half of your CFMs just getting to the 2800 foot mark and then another 25 CFM lose with your lines. I would have a 100 CFM pump just for this section of your woods.

Spud

[Thad Blaisdell]

I am getting ready to set up a new woods with about 2500 taps. I am going to run a wet/dry line and come off of those with 1". I was going to use 1.25" and 1.5" on the wet/dry. I just recently bough the notebook by Steve Childs at Cornell and can't believe the line loss numbers for even 1.5" mainline. My wet/dry will be approximately 2800 feet. I was wondering if many producers are going up to a 2" dry line in the woods to overcome the line loss. I know it sound like overkill on this size of a woods, but looking at the charts in the notebook, it may be worth it. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

I just reread your question. It seems that everyone has ideas about everything but no one really even knows what they are answering here. Every woods is going to be a little different. Now my understanding is from pump to end of the wet dry is 2800 feet, is that correct? If so how far till your first mainline? Now my next question is why are you using 1" mainline? Are they going to be really long? A lot of taps? With out a little more of the picture you are not going to get a really good answer.

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

Thanks for the replies so far. Here are a few more details. It is going to be 2800' from the releaser to the end of the wet/dry lines. The wet/dry will be going up through a valley, with 1" lateral mains coming off of the wet/dry on each side. The first taps are about 800' from the releaser. The vacuum pump will be next to the releaser so not much loss there. The 1" lateral mains will vary in length, up to 1000'. I want the 1" for better vac transfer. I use 1" in my other woods and want to keep everything standardized. The trees are small and dense, so there will be a lot of taps on each lateral main.

I am getting an electric releaser with internal submersible pump from CDL, and a vane pump with cooler from Leader, and hoping to really set everything up right for maximum production. Thanks again for the replies so far.

[Thad Blaisdell]

without knowing precise details on distance to mainlines and seeing for myself I would do this

First 800' 2" x1.5
500' 1.5x1.25
500' 1.25x1.25
500' 1.25x1
500'1x1

And with those numbers it may vary some depending on if 30' away is going to be 2-3 mainlines that have a ton of taps then continue that stretch to there.

[spud]

My thought is you need to have maximum CFMs to the far ends of every mainline in your woods. The only way to do that is to have a big pump and a big wet/dry system. For the distance you are talking about ( 2800 feet ) I would use 2 inch dry and 1 1/2 wet like I said in my other post. Assuming you are going to use manifolds along the way starting at the 800 foot mark it is safe to say you will have small vacuum leaks along the way up to the 2800 foot mark. By the time you branch out with 1000 foot mainlines ( maybe a dozen times or more) your CFMs at the end will be way down. To spend a little more money now will assure you maximum production for years to come.

Spud

[GeneralStark]

Thanks for the replies so far. Here are a few more details. It is going to be 2800' from the releaser to the end of the wet/dry lines. The wet/dry will be going up through a valley, with 1" lateral mains coming off of the wet/dry on each side. The first taps are about 800' from the releaser. The vacuum pump will be next to the releaser so not much loss there. The 1" lateral mains will vary in length, up to 1000'. I want the 1" for better vac transfer. I use 1" in my other woods and want to keep everything standardized. The trees are small and dense, so there will be a lot of taps on each lateral main.

I am getting an electric releaser with internal submersible pump from CDL, and a vane pump with cooler from Leader, and hoping to really set everything up right for maximum production. Thanks again for the replies so far.

If you want it done right, I would suggest using the Cornell Vacuum Tubing Workbook and map out your planned system, use the line loss charts and determine the proper size wet/dry lines and mainlines for your situation. Slope is another consideration as well and you have not mentioned that at all.

You can find a very informative webinar and associated workbook here: http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/web/schedule.htm

[wiam]

I am not saying that Cornell is wrong, but there are answers on this thread from large sugarmakers pushing 1/2 gallon/tap. I had a rep from Leader tell me I needed 1.5" for a 1600' vac line to 1000 taps. A dealer close to me with a lot of taps that has set up many thousands of taps told me it was a waste of money, that I should use 1.25. Except for this year I have gotten about .45 gal/tap.

[GeneralStark]

I am not saying that Cornell is wrong, but there are answers on this thread from large sugarmakers pushing 1/2 gallon/tap. I had a rep from Leader tell me I needed 1.5" for a 1600' vac line to 1000 taps. A dealer close to me with a lot of taps that has set up many thousands of taps told me it was a waste of money, that I should use 1.25. Except for this year I have gotten about .45 gal/tap.

Just to clarify I am not saying anyone here is wrong, just that the cornell workbook is very helpful to anyone wanting to set up modern tubing system for high production. It has been very helpful to me in understanding tubing dynamics and how to get the most from your woods and I post it as a resource for folks to use. Others opinions are valuable, but it is also valuable to be knowledgeable so you can understand these systems yourself.

Not saying .45/tap is bad, but why not strive for .6/tap or more. With a well designed system and a productive woods it may be possible, in which case the investment in larger pipe may be worth it.

[Thad Blaisdell]

.6gpt is very difficult to achieve when you run a large to very large operation. There are so many possibilities for problems and to get to them the second they happen is quite impossible. When you have 70 buckets and 250 on vac you can locate a problem in seconds. but when you have 30 miles of mainlines and conductor lines and you are a one man show it just isnt going to happen. Last year I made 6 pounds to the tap. and I know I dumped on the ground well over 1500 gal of sap one day. And believe me I dont run 2" dry line all the way up the woods. I have less than 500 feet to be precise. So when you guys have a little more experience running vacuum lines then I would give advice. And before you say .45 is bad you might want to understand what he runs for vacuum. I do know and I am way impressed that he did that well. I am installing 2500 taps for a guy this year and we arent using any 2". And I will bet anyone that wants to put down $ that he will do as well with the system as if you wasted the $ and installed 2".

Anyway. Good luck with your install, sounds like you will have over 10,000 taps, that is perfect, just be careful who you take advice from, they are not spending any of their own money.

[farmall h]

Man I need to get some of that 1 1/2" mainline...Thad could you bring me over your left-overs? Please? ;)

[PATheron]

Im sure whats being advocated in that study is probly the thing to do with the pipe. Ive run smaller pipe than probly Thad or that study just becouse its all I could afford with varying results. I ran a one inch pipe roughly 3500 feet from my pump to a releaser to run 600 taps and it wouldnt do it. Ran a second one inch pipe and then it would although I lost a couple inches of vacuum. Im thinking it was like 25 inches at the shed and 23 at the releaser out there. Still got a quite a lot of sap there. Last year ran two inch and a quarter pipes say roughly 4000 foot to the same releaser after I moved it further downt the hill and had 900 taps on it and only lost one inch of vac. That seemed to work quite well. Id say the futhest taps off that releaser are fifteen hunred feet back up the hill so Im pulling sap from over a mile from the ring pump. Its not perfect but I figure its easier than running a remote pump and its still pretty good vac and its all I can afford so what the hey. My averages are usually pretty fair. Id definitely use the biggest pipe I could afford but anyway thats been some of my experiances. Tried running a releaser a full mile from the ring pump on one inch on 400 taps and it wouldnt even work the releaser. The two inch and a quarters last year would normally get me 1200 gallons of sapevery day off of 900 taps even once the weather got warm so it must have been doing pretty good. Never have put a gage at the last taps but it still hisses real loud and it kind of stings the tongue, thats as scientific as I get. Id probly get more sap if I was more by the book but I wont get any sap if my wife kicks me out for spending any more money. Theron

[farmall h]

Id probly get more sap if I was more by the book but I wont get any sap if my wife kicks me out for spending any more money. Theron

Well put! :)