Force 5

[Albert gravlin]

I have been researching which evaporator to buy and it came down to leaders vortex with max flue pan and lappierres hurrican force 5. I went with a 3 x 13 force five. I have not boiled on my own before. Any advice for another force 5 owner would be greatly appreciated.

[SandMan]

I'm not sure I understood your post? You have never boiled on your own and you just bought a 3x13 force five!!!! Serious! Wow! Nothing like jumping in with both feet. How many taps are you running?

[driske]

What factors put you in the Lappiere camp?? Price? Performance? ease of operation? fuel consumption? etc....discuss further please.
I am so tempted to buy a forece5...but I really need all the info I can get.

[Albert gravlin]

I tapped 600 on buckets last year and hope to be near 2000 on vac. This coming year. Plus I know a couple of guys that are going to tap and sell their sap. I did not want to buy an evaporator just to say I had one. I believe this will last me a long time. What it came down to was I believe that the force 5 is built out of heavier material due to fact that it comes already bricked were leaders vortex does not. They said that the frame would not be able to take the extra weight in transport and setting up. The time between firing was also a selling point. I stood there talking to Rejean at the open house and he had the door to the arch open for at least ten minutes and the water was still boiling. He did not have to turn the blowers off to refire. The stack temp did go down some but it was open a lot longer then the normal refire would take. The size of wood was also a consideration. Leader to me to get the mot out of the vortex I should be using 36 inch long wood to cover the grates or if smaller to stagger it. With the force 5 you can use any size. I am sure ther is an optimum size for the wood time will tell. There are so many choices out there and it was hard to choose. I hope I have made the right choice.

[Randy Brutkoski]

You made the right desicion. With the vortex you are going to burn alot of wood where as the force 5 you will burn very little. This past season i concentrated on the average of 10% to 12%. Most of the wood i used was 4 to 5 year old wood. I burned about 7 cord of wood and made 1670 gallons. I will be boiling 15% next year so the wood consumption will be alot lower.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

You made the right desicion. With the vortex you are going to burn alot of wood where as the force 5 you will burn very little. This past season i concentrated on the average of 10% to 12%. Most of the wood i used was 4 to 5 year old wood. I burned about 7 cord of wood and made 1670 gallons. I will be boiling 15% next year so the wood consumption will be alot lower.
yea what he said

[driske]

Albert ...Randy, thanks for the review. Just got to get through this messed up recall election time, and then I'll make up my mind whether or not to go for it.

We have a new Lappierre dealer 10 miles away. I watched him boil on a 3x13 Force 5, for a cycle of 3 firings this spring(45 minutes between firings). Steady boil and calm on the mind in between stokes.
I know shinny doesn't make syrup....but it sure is easy on the eye.

[Albert gravlin]

Randy, when you say seven cords are you talking about a face cord or full cord, and four to Five year old? I am cleaning out the sugar bush this year and aim a little hesitant to cut to much because Rejean said one year drink is all you need. I did not want together to much ahead, but if your wood burnt well it would be nice to clean more before the pipeline goes up.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Randy, when you say seven cords are you talking about a face cord or full cord, and four to Five year old? I am cleaning out the sugar bush this year and aim a little hesitant to cut to much because Rejean said one year drink is all you need. I did not want together to much ahead, but if your wood burnt well it would be nice to clean more before the pipeline goes up.

the wood randy is talking were full cords. I talked to one of the people from Lap at the boil off last year he he told me full wood unsplit with like a 20% to 30% moisture content in order to get the gasification process to work.

[Randy Brutkoski]

What flats. said.

[Amber Gold]

I spoke to Rejean about the Force 5 a lot at Lap's Open House and I'm sold. I'm planning on getting one for the 2014 season. He said they were burning freshly cut spruce with no black smoke, and it burned well. He did say wood that was too dry wouldn't burn well, but I think if you left it whole, and left it outside to get plenty wet before the season started, it'd probably burn pretty good.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

What flats. said.

i should be a spokeman for Lap, what you think Randy hahaha would have to buy one i guess first

[red maples]

I spoke to Rejean about the Force 5 a lot at Lap's Open House and I'm sold. I'm planning on getting one for the 2014 season. He said they were burning freshly cut spruce with no black smoke, and it burned well. He did say wood that was too dry wouldn't burn well, but I think if you left it whole, and left it outside to get plenty wet before the season started, it'd probably burn pretty good.

When he did his presentation at the NHMPA meeting a few years ago, he said whole rounds unsplit pine of what ever variety 2-3 months old are perfect. Although we all know there are some BIG pines that need to be split. When they tested the maple guys evap they used 1 month aged white pine(which he said he never tested wood that green) and were able to dial it in pretty good. they boiled for a few hours tto make sure everything running good and even made it to 45 minutes between 1 firing (which he said was a little too long between firings) but it only lost a little heat and once it was loaded it was back up to ideal heat in seconds.

although I can only dream.........

[maple2]

we put a 4x12 force 5 in two years ago. anything that fits in the door will burn. we burn mostly hardwoood slabs,sometimes right off the saw. wet or frozen wood burns fine. you get more btus from the gasses than the actual fire. nice even boil on every inch of the pans. we fire every 30 min. less than half full. no smoke or ash comes out the stack. dry wood makes smoke and not much heat. drawbacks are; kind of noisy, startup and shutdown time is longer,and with our d&g pans,it makes it over5ft tall

[ToadHill]

I'm curious/confused about a couple of things in this discussion. First, how can burning wood with higher moisture contents be efficient. I've heard a lot of people talk about burning relatively green wood in these types of evaporators, but I don't see how that could be efficient. I know that the manufacturer tells people that the "wood shouldn't be to dry." That doesn't make sense to me. Any moisture in the wood consumes BTU's which means fewer BTU's that are transfered to the boiling process.

Also, I don't see how you can get the same evaporation rate from an evaporator that is being fired every 45 minutes compared to one that is burning more wood during the same time period unless there is some obvious difference in efficiency.

[ennismaple]

What flats. said.

Agreed. When our wood is too dry and split too fine I can't control the fire with the blowers. Large, unsplit hardwood is best. We have some pallets with a mix of softwood and slabs and I hate burning them. Cut your wood as big as you can muscle into the belly of the beast!

[driske]

Toadhill,
Thanks for putting down in eloquent print, the nagging doubts in the back of my mind in regards to firing with wet wood.
My 61 YO noggin' knows only the merits of seasoned dry wood.....learned and relearned through 32 seasons of sugaring.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Green wood burns fine in mine but i still like burning the dry stuff. I will actually mix the real dry with green. Makes for longer between firing. You have got to remember that the blower system is the guts to this thing. When i start my rig up it is like starting up an oil fired rig. Instant incinerator.

[Amber Gold]

I think it has something to do with wet wood giving off gases and dry wood just burns. The force 5 burns the gases.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Green wood burns fine in mine but i still like burning the dry stuff. I will actually mix the real dry with green. Makes for longer between firing. You have got to remember that the blower system is the guts to this thing. When i start my rig up it is like starting up an oil fired rig. Instant incinerator.
ice logs hehehehe

[Dave Y]

I have boiled for three seasons on a 4x14 Force 5. any thing you can throw in it will burn. However wood with 20% moisture works the best. This is due to the fact that the burning wood creates gases and the gases are burned off also .there is no natural draft in this rig. just hi pressure blowers. I boiled on a 3x12 forced air rig before i bought the force 5. I will tell you there is no comparison. Whither you understand the concept or not belieive me when I tell you it will do what the manufacture says it will do.

[Waynehere]

So, what is the secret to this type of rig? Do the nozzles point a certain way to create the circular motion inside? I am about to put in AOF in my 2x6 and would love to make it more efficient. :) It sounds just like a furnace that burns coal for an electric plant that I visited once, like a ring of fire. It was a beautiful site.

[GeneralStark]

The difference with this style of evaporator is that is a gasifier, so opposed to just burning the wood and releasing the heat, wood gases are released in the primary combustion and then the gases are combusted in a secondary combustion system. Different units have slight design differences but the premise is the same in all. That said, I don't think you could modify a standard combustion evap. to become a gasifier, though I could be wrong. There is more to it than just blowers.

The advantage to green or not so seasoned wood is the moisture in the wood acts to increase the gasification effect. I use a Hearthstone wood heater that is also a gasifier and I have noticed that green wood burns much hotter that dry wood. I like to mix green and dry in that stove.

[ennismaple]

So, what is the secret to this type of rig? Do the nozzles point a certain way to create the circular motion inside? I am about to put in AOF in my 2x6 and would love to make it more efficient. :) It sounds just like a furnace that burns coal for an electric plant that I visited once, like a ring of fire. It was a beautiful site.

Not sure on the angles for the AOF. I think what partly contributes to the vortex of burning gases is the primary air being blown through the front door. It causes the jets of secondary air being blown over top of the wood to swirl creating complete combustion.

What you'll really notice from the Force 5 is the lack of ashes. If you really wanted to, I think you could leave the ash in the fire box and not clean it out before each day's firing. Rejean explained to us that ash and black smoke are from incomplete combustion - meaning you're losing BTU's. On our old 5x16 we'd take out 4 x 5 gallon pails of ash each day. With the Force 5 we remove less than one pail per day.

[Dave Y]

There is no specific secret to this rig. there are a number of things that are being done to get the results that are being achived. one thing is that it will not work well on smaller sized rigs paticularly hobby size.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

i have no proof but to look at a force 5 very closely, i think there is a hot air chamber the flue gases go through before they go up the stack, pre heating the AOF
1. the temp of a force five running a the rear of the flue pan approx. 1900 deg. the temp going up stack 700 deg approx. ( i can post pics of these temps)
2. for gasification to take place the temp in the fire box needs to be approx. 1100 deg. so 1900 - 700 = 1200. plus the front of the force five is already showing 1600 deg approx ( i can post pic).

gasification according to a large manufacturer will not work on any thing smaller than a 30x8 or 30x10. So for us guys who have 2x6's yes we can get a better efficiency but wont match a true gasification rig. yOU NEED ROOM INSIDE THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER FOR THAT TO HAPpen (dam caps lock) and we just dont have what it takes.

[RustyBuckets]

Would love to see the pictures Flat Lander Sugaring. Post them up please.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e234/poultneyfiredog18/Sugaring/IMG00803.jpg
here you go, this at boil off last year

[Waynehere]

Thanks for the info Flat lander. Not what I wanted to hear, but good to know. Maybe I will be "Forced" to a larger rig, thus I will need more taps, thus I will need an RO, filter press, larger sap shack, wow, I can't wait to get started..... :)

[Dave Y]

flatlander,
there isn't a hot air chamber. one thing that is happening is there is no cold air being blown into the fire box.

[doocat]

How is the air warmed prior to being blown into the firebox?

[Albert gravlin]

This has been gret reading for me. I pour the floor a few days ago and part of the walls today. I also brought over the studding material for the rest of the walls. The new sugar house is well on the way which is good because the new force 5 will be delivered on August 1. Can't wait for the spring. I have about 12 cords cut and still going. Next after the sugar house is research on the best way to put the bush on pipeline. Thank you your all of your input on what to expect with the force 5.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

flatlander,
there isn't a hot air chamber. one thing that is happening is there is no cold air being blown into the fire box.so dave if there is not a air chamber for the AOF to go through to get warmed up or hot how does the air get warmed and how do you explain the HUGE temperature difference from the rear flue temp 1900 deg to just feet away 740 deg?
in one way or another the AOF air gets its heat from the hot flue gases, be it a hot air chamber box or multiple pipes that run through the area just before the stack starts. 1200+ deg just doesn't disappear in a matter of a few feet.

[Dave Y]

Flatlander,
I hate to say this but if you really want to know what is inside you have to buy.

[Waynehere]

Wow, get the feeling that if you BUY one of these Force 5's, you have to sign a secrecy agreement, or just tease your fellow Mapletraders enough to buy one????? :( I guess us little guys will just have to keep dreaming..... :)

[driske]

Our neighbor drove by a couple days back with his new shiny pickup . Word on the street has it he dropped around 68K for this totally decked out unit.
I would take a 4x16 Force 5, ahead of the truck any day.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Our neighbor drove by a couple days back with his new shiny pickup . Word on the street has it he dropped around 68K for this totally decked out unit.
I would take a 4x16 Force 5, ahead of the truck any day.

Glad to see you have your priorities straight:)

[Randy Brutkoski]

Getting my new 2012 F250 with 8 ft. fisher. chrome , everything. next week. digging a hole.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Getting my new 2012 F250 with 8 ft. fisher. chrome , everything. next week. digging a hole.

ohh but dave your wrong about buying one Im sure I know some one really good, enough to have a very close look see, Ill come help you dig the hole randy, for a favor HEHEHEHEHE

[Dave Y]

well flatlander , I spent well over 30 grand on my Force 5. I think if you really want to know how it works you should take your money out of you pocket and spend it or do the work the company did and figure it out for your self.

[sam1234]

You should take a look at the new Chinook from CDL.
This is an automatic controlled wood fired evaporator....
Force 5 is rated 3.3 gal/sq.ft/hour....
Chinook, will reach 4 gal/sq.ft/hour...
worth a look...
The Intens'oFire is rated up to 5gal/hour, but less efficient as far as wood consumption... like a straight pipe racing car, which explains why they have won the boil off over all the others...)
The Chinook, is rated at 0.28 cord of wood per drum at 15brix...

It is awesome... It is a brand new arch built to be as most efficient as possible...
Now CDL has something really efficient... not only powerful....

CDL was the first to go with pellet.
CDL has tho only one automatic fed wood evaporator (you can see the demo at CDL open House in Canada which was in operation at a customer in 2011) Wow. This must be seen for industrial producers that really wants to go with wood...

Now the Chinook...
R&D at CDL is the point... so please, take a look before purchasing...

[Randy Brutkoski]

I saw CDL in that last post 6 times. Sam, What is your commision at CDL?

[Albert gravlin]

Dave I like the pics. I can't wait for mine to arrive. How much sap can you go through in an hour with yours?

[sam1234]

I saw CDL in that last post 6 times. Sam, What is your commision at CDL?

Hi Randy,

I work for CDL and do not want to hide it. I am plant manager at the evaporator facility
I just want to let you know that we now have a new gasifier wood arch.

My goal is not to downgrade any other manufacturer but to let everybody know that something new and very nice is now available.
For your info, I have no commission on any sales... :cry:

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

well flatlander , I spent well over 30 grand on my Force 5. I think if you really want to know how it works you should take your money out of you pocket and spend it or do the work the company did and figure it out for your self.

well I'm glad you can purchase such a great piece of equipment. I'm limited on two things, tree's to tap and deep pocket book so I am left up to tinkering with my equipment trying to make it more efficient. So I will look at all things the major manufacturers do and try to improve on them, once you have changed the design by 10% your free of any patents. If you could, any pictures you have of the inside of your rig would be greatly appreciated hehehehe, JK Dave. I have a buddy who is a plumber and he has a video camera on an end of a sewer snake so thats my next step, gotta love technology.

[Albert gravlin]

Where on line can I see this chinook? I looked at cdl main page and nothing????

[sam1234]

This arch has been demonstrated at CDL open house in St-Lazare during this week-end... Nobody ever heard of it until now...
Nothing is on the net now, you are right... It is new and was well kept for the CDL open house demo...

Only thing I can say is that many were sold and it was the open house for all the major manufacturers in the industry...
Everybody that made a purchase visited all the manufacturers...........

[Dill]

Chinook? Sounds fishy to me.
Too bad I'm on more of a coho budget.