looking for a sugar bush

[gaiasparks]

I am looking for my first sugar bush, after reading this site for a few months I think I know what to look for, but could use some advice. How many maples per acre is the best, should it be a southern facing site? How much slope is the min.? Any advice would be great. I know there is a ton of knowledge out there.
shane

[spencer11]

well first of all welcome to the trader!! as for how many maples per acre, as many as possible is what you want. 70 is about the average i think. southern facing or northern facing, it dosent really matter, they will all run but just at different times of the season. laterals should have a min. slope of 5% or whatever you can get and the main should be about 2%, again or what ever you can get. for land slope, it could be flat and just have sap ladders but the more slope the better.

spencer

[motowbrowne]

Where are you in Wisconsin, Shane? I live (part of the year) in River Falls. Since you are asking about slope, can we assume that you are looking to do a gravity or vacuum setup? How much are you able to invest upfront, and how big are you going to want to get in the next five to ten years. If you are planning on setting up a 10 thousand tap operation you will need a lot of information and will need to make careful decisions planning your operation. If you are thinking about tapping 200 trees with buckets or on gravity and buying a used 2x6 then you have a different set of things to think about. One thing I might suggest after the last 25 years weather patterns, I would look for something with a North slope, or at least a bush that has some on the North side. I have heard good things from the guys in spots that are only a few degrees cooler than I am, and this year my new trees on the North slope seemed to do surprisingly well considering the weather we had. Let us know a little bit about what you are planning and we can give you some ideas. If you do it right, you could find a location and plan an operation that would let you start small and expand in a way that minimizes redundant expenses, i.e. buying an oversized evaporator at the outset that, when coupled with an RO or a Steamaway later could handle a substantial number of taps. Again, welcome, there is a lot of good info here.

[gaiasparks]

Well, I am planning a second career, spent most of mine in the construction field, and am getting worn out. So I have been lucky and can invest quite a bit,, I am looking for a large operation down the line. I would like a possibility of 15 to 20 thousand taps. Its really tough finding anything out there that fits my needs,, have seen the best up in the UP where its been recently harvested, looks to me that there are 60/80 trees per acre and alot of them are the 10" size. Plus alot of that area is real remote with out year long roads or power. I would like to try to set up a modern operation. Any help here would be great.
shane

[motowbrowne]

Well, if that's what you are looking for, I would suggest reading the North American Maple Syrup Producer's Manual if you haven't read it already. I would also suggest spending a lot of time on this forum learning as much as you can from what other people are saying on a given topic. Then, when you sit down with an equipment dealer you'll have a better idea of what's going on and you'll have an idea of what kind of operation you want to put together. I would start keeping my eye open for a big high efficiency evaporator, I noticed a guy in Michigan selling a 5x14 Thunderbolt with a steamaway, that does 550gph, not sure if it's wood or oil http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?17243-Michigan-sucks-for-used-evaporators/page2&highlight=thunderbolt. I don't know if that would even be big enough for 15k taps. Have to have a big RO I suppose. I think at this phase of the game you should do a lot of research, and having done that consult professionals in figuring out a good piece of land and a good system to install. I think it would be worth it in the long run. Sounds like you are up north, so you could stop in at Anderson's, though I for one will say that I would much rather deal with Roth's even in my small experience with them. Roth's deals CDL, which seem pretty nice and pretty reasonable on the price. A member on here has a 4x14 Intensofire that does 350gph if you fuel every 5 minutes. Well, keep us posted, I'd love to be able to set up whatever kind of operation I wanted to. I just went from 300 to 450 taps this year and got a new 2x10, but I'd love to be installing a 3x12 with Air over fire and putting out 2500 taps. Personally I would rather be at that size and not bother with vacuum and RO and cook with wood, but I see the desire to go big too. Also, I should mention that you could call around and take a tour of some different operations in Wiconsin. I know there are some 10 thousand or bigger operators that would be happy to show you around.

[gaiasparks]

Thanks for the advice, I will try to tour some different operations, but for now just looking at a piece of property that would work, Just having a hard time finding the right property, just seems wisconsin is all cut up without larger parcels of land. I live down in central wisconsin port edwards, just moved here from Hollandale WI, via san vito, costa rica and one year in Afganistan. So I need to get back into the woodsll Again thanks for your thoughts.

shane

[spud]

Shane- It sounds like you are in the military so I thank you for your service. Sugaring is a lot of fun but it cost a bunch to get started. A twenty thousand tap operation with all the equipment and buying the land could cost half a million or so. You would have to have help in running this operation. Have you considered only having 5000-7500 taps so you could do this alone and still make a very good income? You then could buy sap from others around you. I am sure others would start up smaller operations if they knew someone would buy their sap. Getting too big in sugaring can sometimes take the fun right out of it. Either way you choose to go I think a great start is to read Proctor maple research and Cornell maple research which you can find on line. People here on Trader can help answer a lot of your questions also. Good luck and welcome to Maple Trader.

Spud

[gaiasparks]

Spud, thanks for the advice, I was not in the military, but worked as a electrician at alot of bases, but your right to thank everyone that was over there, you would not believe what is going on, they seem to just forget about it here, its a living hell, and my hat goes off to all the people who have been there. Just last night on PBS another 12 dead in the last 10 days,, it just keeps going on and on. Just had to make that statement. I have been laid off and so have read alot of this forum and many articles. You are right about starting smaller, I had just wanted the options of getting bigger. Anybody getting out over your way that has anything for sale,, not really tied to this area.
shane

[spud]

There are sugar woods for sale in my area. Go to Yahoo Real Estate and type in Richford Vermont. There is a 50 acre lot for sale for $54,000 or so. Type in the town Bakersfield Vermont and there is a small camp for sale with 69 acres (all maple) the price is about $150,000 or so. If you go to Farm and Forest Real Estate and click on land you will see many large tracks of land some having sugar woods. The thing to remember is a sugar woods can be called a wood lot to those who do not sugar.

Spud

[sugaringman85]

There are sugar woods for sale in my area. Go to Yahoo Real Estate and type in Richford Vermont. There is a 50 acre lot for sale for $54,000 or so. Type in the town Bakersfield Vermont and there is a small camp for sale with 69 acres (all maple) the price is about $150,000 or so. If you go to Farm and Forest Real Estate and click on land you will see many large tracks of land some having sugar woods. The thing to remember is a sugar woods can be called a wood lot to those who do not sugar.

Spud

Those are amazing prices for land! and to have maple on them is a huge benefit!

[jmayerl]

I would also say thats super cheap compared to here. Here is NE wisconsin you can't touch anything for less than 3,500/acre and thats for larger tracts. My buddy just bought an 80 with road access for 265,000 and I thought that was a good deal. If you go way north (Rhinelander or farther) the prices start to drop off then.

[spud]

There is another sugar woods with 7000-8000 taps for sale on 105 acres of land for $100,000 about 5 miles from my house. There is a 50 acre lot up my road with 2500 taps with power and road frontage going for $85,000. Down the road from me there is a 60 acre lot with 3000 taps and 30 acres of hay field going for $80,000. People need money real bad and this makes it good for people that have some money to spend.

Spud

[jmayerl]

I think I'm moving out east!

[driske]

Those VT prices are remarkably lower, in comparison to our area here in NC WI. The other negative, as mentioned, is how diced up the real estate is getting around here in WI.
I'm turning 61 YO tomorrow...been making syrup around Athens since I was 6 years old, with a few years left out over the college days.
If I were setting up a new bush in Midwest today,I would take a hard look at the UP first. The pluses.
#1. Larger contiguous tracts of Maple.
#2. Topography that lends it self to tubing installation...i.e. more slope.
#3. Climate change is forcing the region of "real" winter gradually further North.
#4. Lower land prices.
#5. The UP is peopled with some of the most genuinely nice, humorous, and energetic people on the face of the Planet earth.
Head 'er up to Maple Hollow and rub shoulders with some of the faithful later this week. Knowledge is power and there will be some experienced folks there to trade ideas with.

[gaiasparks]

Thanks so much for all the information, I have been up to the UP a couple times looking for a stand, and there are alot of nice areas, mostly undeveloped with out the year round roads or electrical. How many trees is the min. to set up a decent stand. A lot of the stands have been thinned lately and have maybe 60 trees, and most are smaller. Is this enough for a long term bush?
shane

[acerrubrum]

I've been following this thread about the idea of buying land for a business operation and been real interested. I've thought about expanding well beyond a hobby operation (no time soon! still a beginner) but not sure of the economics, or if I could make it pay. If anyone would be willing the share I'd love to get an idea of what one could expect to make in income from a given size operation. Say, if one had 400 ( or whatever number) taps, in an average year, what income could he expect to see after expenses.
I know, I know, there's all sorts of variables like price, the weather, the nuances of ones operation etc. I'm just curious how is shakes out in broad strokes.

[spud]

Four hundred taps could give you 200 gallons with high vac. Based on some other Traders from your state you can get $60.00 a gallon or make even more by selling in smaller jugs. Buy used equipment to get you started ( don't be talked into the new shinny stuff ). If you sold everything in quart jugs at $16.00 each you could make $12,800 per season less expense. You still should clear $10,000 on a good year.

Spud

[Mark]

I am looking for my first sugar bush, after reading this site for a few months I think I know what to look for, but could use some advice. How many maples per acre is the best, should it be a southern facing site? How much slope is the min.? Any advice would be great. I know there is a ton of knowledge out there.
shane

I am up in the UP and if your ever up here you could check out my place. I tap 15,000 taps and going to over 20,000 next year and this is all I do. I was able to get 300 acres for $175 an acre but that was 20 years ago, now it goes for about $800 an acre. I will be gone to Vermont for the next 10 days and only my son will be here so anytime after that.

[GeneralStark]

Four hundred taps could give you 200 gallons with high vac. Based on some other Traders from your state you can get $60.00 a gallon or make even more by selling in smaller jugs. Buy used equipment to get you started ( don't be talked into the new shinny stuff ). If you sold everything in quart jugs at $16.00 each you could make $12,800 per season less expense. You still should clear $10,000 on a good year.

Spud

It certainly would be possible to make 10 - 15 K annually with 400 taps, but it is also easy to get caught up in the numbers. A high vacuum tubing system that will generate that much sap on a bad year (like this one) is not a cheap investment at 400 taps and the equipment to process all that sap isn't cheap either. In 2011 I collected enough sap at a high enough sugar content to make .5galsyrup/tap. This year, it was more like .25galsyrup/tap. I have only been averaging about 15" however. Next year, 27" the whole season as now I have the pump to do it.

The other question is can you sell all your syrup at $16/quart. It is easy to punch the buttons on the calculator but getting the goods to market is another question. Here in VT, everyone knows or is a sugarmaker. I doubt folks in Richford are paying $16/quart. Building a customer base and finding a niche for your products takes time and energy. There are many factors involved in getting the most you can out of your woods and the most possible for your syrup.

[spud]

General Stark- I could not agree with you more on everything you said. The reason I put $16.00 per quart is because other Traders outside of Vermont claim that is what they get for a quart. I have been bashed by some Trader's for saying that I sold some syrup for $38.00 a gallon. I have tried to explain to sugar maker's that I can't get much more then that here in Franklin County where most everyone is a sugar maker. A person would have a better chance of selling ice in the North Pole then me selling syrup for over $40.00 here in Richford. To start up a 400 tap operation in Michigan one might be able to get $16.00 a quart because there are not as many people making Syrup in there area (although there is a lot ). The best advise to anyone starting out is stay away from the new shinny equipment. The second best advise is never buy a used Vacuum pump. Without a reliable vacuum pump nothing else matters.

Spud

[GeneralStark]

General Stark- I could not agree with you more on everything you said. The reason I put $16.00 per quart is because other Traders outside of Vermont claim that is what they get for a quart. I have been bashed by some Trader's for saying that I sold some syrup for $38.00 a gallon. I have tried to explain to sugar maker's that I can't get much more then that here in Franklin County where most everyone is a sugar maker. A person would have a better chance of selling ice in the North Pole then me selling syrup for over $40.00 here in Richford. To start up a 400 tap operation in Michigan one might be able to get $16.00 a quart because there are not as many people making Syrup in there area (although there is a lot ). The best advise to anyone starting out is stay away from the new shinny equipment. The second best advise is never buy a used Vacuum pump. Without a reliable vacuum pump nothing else matters.

Spud

Agreed. I would also say that focusing your money and efforts in the woods and setting up the best system possible is key. You make money in the woods, not in the sugarhouse. I have all new state of the art (in the process of going to all stainless fittings) equipment in the woods, but the sugarhouse is all used or scavenged.

Finding the best market for your products is key. Addison county is like Franklin county, so I have been exploring other outlets for my products. That said, I don't sell much syrup and instead do value added as there is much less competition in that area and I think there are more possibilities to get the products to the end consumer. That said, at the farmer's market I sell at one other vendor is selling gallons at $65:o. It is "certified organic" but I'm not sure how much she is selling though.

[gaiasparks]

Mark, thanks for the reply, I would love to see your operation, I am planning on going back up there soon, let me know when you get back. I tell you is you know anyone who has decent land for $800 let me know. When I stop over I'll tell you the horror story's that we have been going through. But really""" if you know about a large tract for that price range let me know.
thanks shane

[dGarnier]

I just got 280acres up in north east Wi, for a little over 1000 an acre on a town road. With mostly sugar maples at 70 per acre, with some pine plantation and a few red oaks mixed in. Keep looking and you will find a slice to call your own.

[jmayerl]

Whereabouts? Like nearest town.

[mc-vi]

gaiasparks, I think the first thing to do when you want to start with a large sugaring exploitation is to visit as much as you can. If I had some money right now I would find some other land and equip it from scratch. A dream. But to do this you have to know what you are doing. By visiting other producer you see things you would like and many idea. Try to find land with min. 2% slope, but not too much. After tapping 15 000 taps in a 20% slope, I telling you, you're gonna be tired of it. ( I think 2 to 7-10% would be the best) Facing north or south is not a big deal. Some years south facing will do better, on other north facing will do better. For the number of taps per acre is not very important either. If you have let say 100 per acre, you would probably do less per taps then if you have 70, but if you look how much maple syrup you will do per acre, it would be about the same. A maple three give as much sugar then it have leaves. The things to look is more the ratio of maple/red maple/other species. Red maple do half sugar per tap then hard maple so you want a minimum of those. If you can avoid the necessity of electric generator is also a good thing. For the price, expect 7.50$ to 8.50$ for the tubing installation. 15-25 000$ per pumping station. A 30x40 sugarbush would be good for 15-20 000 taps. A 5x14 evaporator is enough if you have a good R/O. The minimum for R/O is 5 000 taps per 600g membrane. So for 15 000 taps don't go under 3 membranes, 4 would be far enough. An R/O cost between 6 500 to 10 000 per membrane. If you would like to visit here I would like to show you our ways. But we are really far away in northern maine so.... And since we have bought an old existing plant only 3 years ago, we are not yet installed like we would like. Anyway, if you would like to visit, just tell me and I will give you my phone number.

[gaiasparks]

Well, I found a spot up in northeast wisconsin, It has a nice forest, but its in Managed Forest,, I have talked to the DNR about starting a sugar bush on it and have gotten two different answers on wither they would allow it on this type of property. Has anyone had to deal with this in WI? If I have to take it out of the program it would cost quite a bit and then the land taxes would be high also. So is there anyone out there with a sugarbush on MFL land?
thanks shane

[SandMan]

State or private? If it is state owned, be careful of the requirements! For example, here in New Hampshire, the state now requires those who have a lease(very few now!) to tap on state land to pull down ALL lines including main lines in the off season. As they themselves have claimed, they want to get out of the leasing business for maple trees!

[jmayerl]

Sorry sandman, no tapping of trees in Wisco unless you own them. Managed forest land is an enrollment program that basically allows the DNR to control the logging and get a cut of it. It drops your taxxes to about $8 an acre, and you have to enroll for 25 years.

Shane, send me a PM, we have a few hundred acres in MFL. Where are you located.