Leader Open house?

[adk1]

Anyone going?? I will be there tomorrow!

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Was there today, if you go catch Dr. Perkins presentation ---- very well done.

[Maple Ridge Farm]

The Maple confestions seminar was also very good.

[maplefrank]

glad everyone is having a good time!!!!!! we went last year,but with the bad crop we could'nt make it this year,:(:cry: would love to see some pics????????

[Bruce L]

Could you give some highlights of Dr.Tim's presentation? I didn't make it to that but I sat in on Advanced tubing techniques at 11:00. I planned on doing the tubing system basics also at 1:00 ,but I was in a meeting with Bruce about our vacuum system set-up

[Sunday Rock Maple]

There were several things including a very good explaination of what happened with the weather this year. The main point that I came away with is that spouts must be replaced every year and that the CV is better than just a normal spout and not quite as good as replacing the drop (but cheaper and a lot less work). Also, they have a new one piece clear CV but production may be limited this year. I think we will switch over to the one piece CV as soon as we can get them.

[Butcher]

So what was the explanation on the warm weather

[SandMan]

Just want to put in my two cents on the Leader CV's! There is really no data that supports CV's on gravity systems. In fact, my experience after 2 years of using them on a gravity system is dismal. Issue's with flow due to slush or particulate matter definately effect flow. It would appear that they may increase production with vacuum systems. I have now switched back to regular 5/16th taps! I only make this statement for all the small producers that are looking at these threads thinking maybe there is a place for CV's on the smaller gravity systems. I know that Leader makes a statement in their catalog that they are "effective in both vacuum and gravity systems". And that they may "increase gravity production as much as 47%". I really take issue with this statement! There is NOTHING that has been published to formally support this!

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Just want to put in my two cents on the Leader CV's! There is really no data that supports CV's on gravity systems. In fact, my experience after 2 years of using them on a gravity system is dismal. Issue's with flow due to slush or particulate matter definately effect flow. It would appear that they may increase production with vacuum systems. I have now switched back to regular 5/16th taps! I only make this statement for all the small producers that are looking at these threads thinking maybe there is a place for CV's on the smaller gravity systems. I know that Leader makes a statement in their catalog that they are "effective in both vacuum and gravity systems". And that they may "increase gravity production as much as 47%". I really take issue with this statement! There is NOTHING that has been published to formally support this!

There needs to be some research done on the CV's by a non biased party in order to take it seriously .

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Thad, AllGREEN and my self went up and ate as many hot dogs as we could at leader, enjoyed a couple seminars and then went to Lap for hamburgers and a great convo with Rajean on the pellet evap and boiling seminar by Goodrich, then hit CDL.
We had a lot of laughs at others expenses but hey it was fun.

[adk1]

Leader was good. I got out of there easy, only spent $350 that was made up of 4 rolls of Grip, a new SS 2" stopper, a small plastic tubing cutter, a roll of ties for 3/4" mainline, a dozen straight connectors, a dozen saddles and 200 CV's. :)

I went to the 11:00 tubing session mostly delt with more complex systems with wet/dry line vac. I dont have vac, but was interesting non the less. THere was a discussion regarding the CV's. Wasent regarding gravity though. I forgot to ask my question on the use of Y fittings on gravity though! ****!

I think I saw Flat and Allgreen walk out of the session before it was over, never found them to catch up to say hello though.

[adk1]

There needs to be some research done on the CV's by a non biased party in order to take it seriously .

I use the CV's and I have basically have 120 taps on steep line gravity. I will continue to use them and replace them each year even though it costs me like $70. Sicne I get good natural vac the only thing that I can say for gravity systems is that the tree will pull any sap that is in the tap back in once it shuts off thereby contaminating the taphole. I think that this particularly happens at the end tree when using a wrap around method cause there always seems to be alot of sap left in the tubing.

I bought a dozen end Y fittings and am planning on switching out 12 of my end tree setups where I use the slides. I want to see how they work. IF I like them, I will replace all of them the following season with the end Y fitting. I use the slids at the mainline so I can tension from there.

Also, did I miss something on the flex tubing???? Leader had a price on it for $69/roll..the grip was $53/roll as advertised...Wondering if it was supposed to be $59/roll????

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Leader was good. I got out of there easy, only spent $350 that was made up of 4 rolls of Grip, a new SS 2" stopper, a small plastic tubing cutter, a roll of ties for 3/4" mainline, a dozen straight connectors, a dozen saddles and 200 CV's. :)

I went to the 11:00 tubing session mostly delt with more complex systems with wet/dry line vac. I dont have vac, but was interesting non the less. THere was a discussion regarding the CV's. Wasent regarding gravity though. I forgot to ask my question on the use of Y fittings on gravity though! ****!

I think I saw Flat and Allgreen walk out of the session before it was over, never found them to catch up to say hello though.

yea yhat was us, Thad left about 2 minutes into it, they were pissing him off and couldnt stay with out saying something ROFL, kinda like others with me.

it was more for vac guys but did learn something.

[adk1]

I figured that it was you, I knew it was Allgreen due to his jacket! haha

[Thad Blaisdell]

I thought I could handle sitting through it. Was not able to.... everybody has their own way to do it, and theirs is most certainly not mine.

Had a great time at Leader met some new people, talked with Fred he helped me with a problem I had with a fill stop, they took care of perfectly. Then on to Lapierre more visiting, picked up a free hat and talked about the pellet evaporator.... Way to much $, very efficient, but overpriced in my book. If you had 40-50k taps it might be the way to go. Then lastly on to CDL, learned there that they are making a new 20 inch prefilter for RO's out of stainless. Lifetime, washable, very interested in that, but they have not set a price yet.

Had a great time with Flat, and Allgreen, laughed my arse off all day. All'n'all a day well spent.

[lew]

Sandman, I believe that Cornell did do a study invloving the CV and Gravity. The results showed a marked improvement over old Spiles with no treatment. However, in my opinion, the increase was do to the new plastic in the hole and not the check valve itself.

[lew]

Sunday Rock Maple, What are they claiming the benefits are of the clear CV versus the original?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Clear spouts do not get as warm on those hot days thus slower bacteria growth. They also found they did not run as much on the cold day short run because they did not thaw as fast....

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

VACUUM BOOSTERS! haha

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Lew,

Thompson pretty much summed up the clear/black CV difference, I would only add that seeing into it may also be a benifit?. The other thing though is the one-piece design, that will stop leaking due to seating problems between the two pieces (had some of that). The new design will also not let the ball escape (although we haven't had that problem) as the ball is in the tip and not the base.

[sjdoyon]

After the warm spell this spring, we hit a week of cold weather. Had a few dozen check valves disconnect but on whole, fairly pleased with them. We were able to boil until 10 April. Saw the new plastic design at our dealer. Like the idea of one piece but since we're on a north facing slope and the sugarbush keeps cool, probably won't go with the clear plastic version.

[SandMan]

Lee, your absolutely correct. Cornell did not separate out data for just the CV! They compared old vs. new taps, drops & laterals. And no were did they get a 47% increase in sap as claimed by Leader in their NEW catalog. In fact, neither the Proctor center or Cornell has directly shown an improvement in sap output on gravity systems by changing out or switching to CV's alone. So we're does Leader get the data to support their claim on page 42 of the NEW 2012 catalog??????

[SandMan]

Sorry "Lew"...,not Lee...darn auto-correct!

[SandMan]

Double post, entry error.

[Bruce L]

I wished after I had gone to Lapierre sooner,went for the new saddle fittings,would have gotten there sooner but my 2012 catalogue had the open house a week earlier,and another maple forum also had the same,so I didn't expect alot going on there.

[doocat]

Thad, I am interested in what you disagreed with at the tubing session. I was there and they did speak of a few things I did not know. I just like hearing everyones version, then I pick what I like.

Craig

[Thad Blaisdell]

Basically in the beginning they were pushing vacuum boosters. Not a huge fan of those. And from there I could see that was the direction of the whole class so I left.

What they were saying is that you need a large something for the sap and air to seperate, there by sending sap down wet and air down dry. I almost totally disagree. There may be certain circumstances that you may need this, but I have never run into it. What I do now is (basically) run my 3/4 straight into the wet, come back a few feet with a T and loop it up to the dry, then you need a shut off and a T with vacuum gauge upstream of that. Now the theory of a booster is to keep your dry line dry, and it will and it will do it quite well. But so will the system I use. The only time you will get sap int the dry line is if you have a major leak. Their claim of sap jumping uphill and into the dry line makes no sense to me. water doesnt just jump uphill. Now the other part of this is on a 3/4 mainline with say 200 taps, you are not getting a tremendous amount of sap at any given time. It may be a stream the size of a pencil. even with turbulance its not going to jump up the line. To me the cost of the booster comapared to the cost of a few fittings, and the possibility of it maybe helping just isnt working for me. Each line still needs a shutoff and a vacuum gauge, so to me you are just spending money for another thing in the woods to go wrong. Nobody was talking about when they freeze up, or break. Just dont agree.

My 2 cents worth.

[wglenmapler]

I appreciate your stating where you disagree. I will say that your system is also "separting the sap from the gas" as the gas will rise into the dryline. I was curious of this very fact myself and did some experimenting with all clear booster material so I could see the effects. What I found in my woods--sap would start going up in the booster along with the gas/vacuum and then fall inside the booster. (This is on a section where the 3/4" line runs around half full on days with good runs-2+g/tap/day.) The amount of sap rising would vary from time to time-seeming to vary with the spped of the gases coming down the line. I wasn't ever alot of sap, but any sap in the dryline always seems to lower the sap quality/clarity that day. That is my experince but I understand what you have has worked well for you!

It's a wonderful thing that we can all have differing oppinions and I can respect your view.

I also know some use a single line large diameter main "collector" line and it works for them.

We have to go with what is comfortable to us. I have installed with the wip/loop method and the boosters.

I can honestly say I haven't ever gone back to the wip/loop systems and checked them in heavy flow--too far to drive--too much going on at that time.

Thanks Thad,
Dan

[GeneralStark]

I'm sure it's one of those preference things but i have to agree with Thad regarding the vacuum booster debate. I use the same system with a loop of pipe and 2 T's and a Y to connect to the main wet/dry lines. This year I am upgrading all the plastic fittings to stainless. This system works well in my situation and I only rarely see sap coming down the dry line if there is a freeze up somewhere.

That said, I have walked some other local producer's woods with many thousands of taps where they do use some booster tanks where many mainlines join the wet/dry lines. It seems to make sense in those situations where you have lots of sap from many lines during a big run coming to one booster. I'm sure it depends a great deal upon topography and layout what system you decide to use.

I did make it to the CDL and Leader open house on friday, mainly for the sales. Bought a bunch of stainless fittings (see above) at 10% off and many other miscellaneous items for some woods upgrades. I'm also getting a bunch of stainless and other assorted things from FW Webb as they came in way lower in price for some things than CDL. I scored some large candy molds from Leader at 10% off in preparation for the wedding favor season as well as a used pan for my paddle cream machine at a very nice price.

Also sat in on a confection workshop friday morning at Leader. A couple good tips but nothing too exciting there. It was neat to see the inside of Leader's manufacturing plant and have some time to look around. All in all a productive trip north.

[spud]

[QUOTE=Thad Blaisdell-Basically in the beginning they were pushing vacuum boosters. Not a huge fan of those. And from there I could see that was the direction of the whole class so I left.

What they were saying is that you need a large something for the sap and air to seperate, there by sending sap down wet and air down dry. I almost totally disagree. To me the cost of the booster comapared to the cost of a few fittings, and the possibility of it maybe helping just isnt working for me. Each line still needs a shutoff and a vacuum gauge, so to me you are just spending money for another thing in the woods to go wrong. Nobody was talking about when they freeze up, or break. Just dont agree.


Thad- I run nothing but Booster tanks in my woods and I swear by them ( and so does the maple researcher's ) I have 5 booster tanks each with 6 one inch mainlines going out. Each main has a valve and each booster has a vacuum gauge. Your set up has a manifold for each main and it's own vacuum gauge. Had I done that I would have 30 manifolds and 30 gauges to buy. Even going cheap it would cost me $50.00 per manifold. I saved money buying booster tanks. Your manifold takes a minimum of 8 stainless clamps each. I would have had to use 240 stainless clamps to make all the manifolds for my woods. Using boosters I only have 30 clamps which is 210 less possible vacuum leaks. Using boosters I only need 5 vacuum gauges not 30 so this saves $250-300 dollars. The maple researchers say you need a booster chamber to help separate sap from air. There are more back flow problems using manifolds then booster's also. When my releaser dumps there is NO sap moving backwards at all. When I check my lines all I have to do is go to my 5 booster's and check the gauge. If the gauge say's 28 I move on to the next booster. The last thing I want to do is check 30 gauges in 30 different locations around the woods. I have never had a booster tank freeze up because the sap is always flowing out. I did have one booster tank that was taking on so much sap it would be almost full. I plan to put another wet line into this tank to solve the problem. This was caused because one wet line is only about 2% slope. Even when my one booster was full of sap I still maintained high vacuum in my lateral lines going into this tank. It is a fact that Booster's cost less then manifolds ($240.00 each ). It is a fact that Booster's can prevent back flow. It is a fact that Booster's save you time in checking lines. It is a fact that Booster's allow you to use 8 times less clamps giving you 8 times less chance of a vacuum leak ( the more clamps the more problems ). The Maple research is there to help all who are willing to listen and learn. The best part is it is free.

Spud

[doocat]

Spud, Is there a chance you could pm me some pics of the booster or post on this thread. Currently I do as Thad and I am curious about your (researchers) methods. Thanks, Craig

[Thad Blaisdell]

spud, currently I have never seen the need for 6 mainlines coming out of one spot, If I did have that I might consider a booster as it would be more economical. The most mainlines I have in one spot is three and that only occurs once in my woods, and I do that one a little different. As far as checking your lines for vacuum, just looking at the gauge that represents 6 mainlines is not going to show you small leaks. You are going to need to shut off 5 lines at a time to check for leaks, to me that is not economical. As far as surging goes I use an electric releaser so there is never surging in my system anyway. As always each sugar maker will have a way they like to do it, no two ways will be the same. The end result is all that matters. I am just stating I am not a fan of the booster tank.

[Amber Gold]

I run mine like Thad does...think I got the idea from Jason Grossman. I like it and think it works well...can just walk down the wet/dry line, shut valves off as you walk by, and find leaks...quick. I started using all poly fittings, but switching over to s/s...ID of the s/s fittings is larger and no concerns of them breaking. Never thought about it, but the poly fitting's ID is ~1/2" and I've noticed that first thing in the morning when things are thawing out, I'll get ice buildup here for a while, reducing vac/sap flow upstream....I want everything in the piping to have a min. ID of 3/4" so there's no restriction.

So is there a seasonal CV coming out? One of the things I hate about using a two part spout is the reducer will loosen from the stubby, either causing a small vac. leak or falling out completely. I also find the reducers loosen in the taphole...material seems to be slipperier than the poly fittings. I'm not sure if I'm the only one, but I generally have to walk my entire woods after a deep freeze and pound a lot of spouts back in....PITA. With maple season's trending towards warming, than cooling, I'm OK with using a polycarbonate fitting and losing some marginal days where the taphole doesn't thaw out, to get better/longer runs at the end of the season.

[spud]

[QUOTE=Thad Blaisdell-spud, currently I have never seen the need for 6 mainlines coming out of one spot, If I did have that I might consider a booster as it would be more economical. The most mainlines I have in one spot is three and that only occurs once in my woods, and I do that one a little different. As far as checking your lines for vacuum, just looking at the gauge that represents 6 mainlines is not going to show you small leaks.

Based on the layout of my land the booster works great. The manifold system is a proven success and I know people that have it are getting .5+ PT. When I check my vacuum gauge at a booster and it reads 27-28 I call that good enough. Yes there can be some small leaks still in the woods but not big enough to get my attention. I have noticed if there is a spout out of a tree it will bring my vacuum down one inch. I also have noticed that based on the Barometric pressure for any giving day it causes my vacuum to go up or down. I have seen my vacuum go from 26 to 28 in the woods in two hours time without making any repairs to pipeline. This is during the day when there is no ice in the lines at all. I run my one inch mainlines about 75 feet apart so there are a lot of mainlines in an area. I run close to 100 taps an acre where some only have 30-50 taps per acre. Then only reason for the need to have 6 mainlines all coming out of one spot is because I set my woods up for booster tanks. If you set your woods up for manifolds then you would never see the need to have six lines branching out from one spot. When I see a gauge reading very low what I do is only close one valve at a time not five. If I close one valve and the gauge goes back to 28 then I know the closed line has the leak. There is all sorts of set-ups people have in their woods and a lot of them work great. Most people that take sugaring real serious are shooting for .5 or better ( I know your one of those people). Some Maple Researcher's are steering people towards booster tanks so there must be a reason. Had I went to the class or you stayed in the class we would both know the answer:lol: I was at Leader on Saturday morning. Had I known you and Flats were there I would have liked to meet you both. Maybe next year.

Spud

[maplwrks]

Leader does an awesome job selling their product....How many boosters do you think they sold after the seminar?

[spud]

Spud, Is there a chance you could pm me some pics of the booster or post on this thread. Currently I do as Thad and I am curious about your (researchers) methods. Thanks, Craig

I am going to try to get photos of my whole operation on Trader soon. I need my kids to get that done for me because I have no idea how to do it. What little I know about sugaring is still more then I know about computers. :confused:

Spud

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

ok I am a gravity guy, but I have a question for you vac guys.
definnition of boost: To boost, to strengthen, elevate, or promote something

so if you have a line that is 8000' in length and your vacuum at the pump is making 27" of vacuum, and at 2500' its down to 20, if you put a "booster tank" it will jump the vacuum back up? or is it just a reserve of vacuum you have at that location to help out because of the distance and the friction of the inside of the tubing it is going through?

[tuckermtn]

Was at the Glenn Goodrich seminar on Saturday morning at Lapierre. Glenn made a point of explaining the only thing that will "boost" your vacuum is more pump or gravity. He is not a fan of booster tanks.

I am a fan of Glen.

I do as Amber and Thad do with the T jumpers where mainlines come in to the wet/dry collectors. Only saw sap in the dry line twice this season.

[sjdoyon]

We had 27" at the sugarhouse and consistently had 26" at the end of the sugarbush (over 5,000 feet), not sure what distance we would see such a drop. A lot of walking and checking lines during the season though to keep the system tight.

Here's the official response on a booster:

For new high output tubing systems aided by vacuum these manifolds allow multiple mainlines and/or wet/dry lines to be brought together into a single wet/dry line system. Within each canister the process is simple, sap is heavier and falls to the bottom of the canister and drains through the wet line. The gases and air in the tubing are released and drawn to the top of the canister by the vacuum of the dry line. This seperation allows for a free flow in the wet line with little to no turbulence. By adding the volume of two lines, and limiting turbulence more sap and air can be moved, thus boosting the CFM of vacuum in your tubing system and allowing maple syrup producers to increase the vacuum levels at the farthest points in the tubing system.



ok I am a gravity guy, but I have a question for you vac guys.
definnition of boost: To boost, to strengthen, elevate, or promote something

so if you have a line that is 8000' in length and your vacuum at the pump is making 27" of vacuum, and at 2500' its down to 20, if you put a "booster tank" it will jump the vacuum back up? or is it just a reserve of vacuum you have at that location to help out because of the distance and the friction of the inside of the tubing it is going through?

[spud]

[QUOTE=tuckermtn;189868]Was at the Glenn Goodrich seminar on Saturday morning at Lapierre. Glenn made a point of explaining the only thing that will "boost" your vacuum is more pump or gravity. He is not a fan of booster tanks.

Some are going to say that Leader is just trying to sell Booster tanks. Other's will say that Glenn is just trying to sell vacuum pumps. I think there is truth in both Leader and Glenn. I use all boosters in my woods and I think they are great. If Glenn was at my woods he would have a hard time finding fault with my booster set-ups. Glenn is right about boosting your vacuum. I doubled the size of my pump because I wanted to make sure I had enough CFMs to the far sections of my woods. My Kinney pump came from Glenn and it works great. Some will say 5000 taps should have 50 CFMs but a study from Cornell say's you should double that amount ( so I did ). I know Dr. Tim say's you could get by with a much smaller pump, but your system would have to be very tight. I don't question that at all, but I was afraid that if I don't find every little leak then I would loose major CFMs and that would lower my production. If I double my CFMs at the pump then I know a few small leaks here and there are not going to kill my production. I will have over 6000 taps next year and no help. I can only cover so much area each day so the bigger pump is helping me. Having 5 Booster stations in my woods that I can drive to with snow machine or 4-wheeler also saves me time while checking for vacuum leaks. I remember 25 years ago people were bashing raised flue pans, vacuum systems, oil fired evaporators and tapping 8 inch trees. Here we are 25 years later and all those things are working great. I think 25 years from now your going to see more booster tanks in sugaring.

Spud

[GeneralStark]

ok I am a gravity guy, but I have a question for you vac guys.
definnition of boost: To boost, to strengthen, elevate, or promote something

so if you have a line that is 8000' in length and your vacuum at the pump is making 27" of vacuum, and at 2500' its down to 20, if you put a "booster tank" it will jump the vacuum back up? or is it just a reserve of vacuum you have at that location to help out because of the distance and the friction of the inside of the tubing it is going through?

As stated earlier, booster tanks don't really boost. Essentially, due to friction, you can only move so much air or water through a length of pipe in a given amount of time. How much will depend upon the length of pipe, its diameter, slope of the pipe and in the case of vacuum tubing systems how much air and water are in the pipe. When air and water are both present, the water can limit the ability of the air to move through the pipe, resulting in loss of vacuum at the end of the pipe.

In the scenario you describe, the booster tank will separate the air and water into their two dedicated lines (wet for sap and dry for air) and will therefore eliminate the vacuum loss at the end of the pipe. However, with an 8,000 ft. mainline you would probably need several boosters or mainifolds (depending upon your preference:)) to separate the air and water and keep the vacuum levels high at the end of the mainline.

Steve Childs put together an amazing webinar that can be found here: http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/web/schedule.htm on designing wet/dry vacuum systems and is great information for those that want to understand the finer details of vacuum systems. Beware all you gravity tubing guys though, you may find yourselves looking for vacuum pumps and more pipe.

[802maple]

In my installations I use a similar system as Thad, but having said that if I have multiple wet/drylines coming together at one point I use the so-called booster that doesn't really boost. The only way to effectively boost vacuum is use the proper sized drylines first.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Leader does an awesome job selling their product....How many boosters do you think they sold after the seminar?

Well said and true. If you want to sell something then give a seminar on it and talk everybody into believing they need it. That has always been Leaders system .

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

i put that question out there to see how many bought into the "BOOSTER" part of leaders class. call it what it is dont be a LIBTARD and sugar coat something to sound really good example "obama care" when it really isn't, thank you for who saw through the smoke and mirror show

[spud]

[QUOTE=sjdoyon

Here's the official response on a booster:

For new high output tubing systems aided by vacuum these manifolds allow multiple mainlines and/or wet/dry lines to be brought together into a single wet/dry line system. Within each canister the process is simple, sap is heavier and falls to the bottom of the canister and drains through the wet line. The gases and air in the tubing are released and drawn to the top of the canister by the vacuum of the dry line. This seperation allows for a free flow in the wet line with little to no turbulence. By adding the volume of two lines, and limiting turbulence more sap and air can be moved, thus boosting the CFM of vacuum in your tubing system and allowing maple syrup producers to increase the vacuum levels at the farthest points in the tubing system.

I feel your explanation of booster tanks was outstanding.

Spud

[Maple Ridge Farm]

After attending the Leader seminar I discussed the same situation with an installer at Lapierre and he recommended using a booster when connecting mulitple wet dry lines into one wet dry line. So I plan on using one.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

so these tanks take a low vacuum point and raise it or just a vacuum manifold.

[batsofbedlam]

I missed the open houses this year and went to Florida instead, but it sounds like the whole booster thing is pretty controversial. I say the proof is in the pudding, and a successful setup is measured in the number of gallons of sap per tap for the season. If you average over 25 gallons per tap, I think you should consider your setup as being on the mark.

[Amber Gold]

I sat in on probably the same seminar, but at Bascom's. I was surprised that if you have a 30cfm pump and a 1000' vac. line, you'll only have 8cfm at the end of it due to friction losses. I was surprised it was that much. If you have a 1.25" vac. line, you'll get 22 cfm. It makes me start to wonder if I need to upgrade my vac. line....15cfm pump w/ a 1000' vac. line to the releaser w/ 800 taps on it next year.

One thing I didn't understand is, how does a rotary vane pump pull for cfm's as more air is introduced into the system from leaks?

[adk1]

I see where Max Flow Flex suddenly went up by $10 to $69/roll. I paid $59 last year. Non of their other offerings prices changed. Anyone know why such a drastic increase? They also re-formulated their grip. I noticed that it was different in color at least whe n Ibought 4 rolls at the open house compared to what I had in the sugarhouse

[Thad Blaisdell]

The reason it went up is because they can. They are running their machine 24 hrs a day 5 days a week. They cant keep up with the orders they have now so up the price. Supply and demand.

[DrTimPerkins]

I see where Max Flow Flex suddenly went up by $10 to $69/roll. I paid $59 last year. Non of their other offerings prices changed. Anyone know why such a drastic increase?

Noticed the price of gas lately? At least part of it is likely due to the price of oil. Plastics are primarily petroleum-based products. Oil goes up, the cost of plastics goes up.

[SandMan]

I see where Max Flow Flex suddenly went up by $10 to $69/roll. I paid $59 last year. Non of their other offerings prices changed. Anyone know why such a drastic increase? They also re-formulated their grip. I noticed that it was different in color at least whe n Ibought 4 rolls at the open house compared to what I had in the sugarhouse

I have been using the both the Max Flow Grip and Flex this past year. On the most recent rolls that I bought, I noticed that the Max Flow Grip is now looking more like Leader 30P! Has there been a change in the formulation???? IN fact, I thought I picked up the wrong roll on my last purchase, thinking that maybe I grabbed the Leader 30P rolls instead of the Leader Max Flow Grip. Nope, it's just looking more like 30P...is the 30P less expensive to manufacture?

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I sat in on probably the same seminar, but at Bascom's. I was surprised that if you have a 30cfm pump and a 1000' vac. line, you'll only have 8cfm at the end of it due to friction losses. I was surprised it was that much. If you have a 1.25" vac. line, you'll get 22 cfm. It makes me start to wonder if I need to upgrade my vac. line....15cfm pump w/ a 1000' vac. line to the releaser w/ 800 taps on it next year.

One thing I didn't understand is, how does a rotary vane pump pull for cfm's as more air is introduced into the system from leaks?

so you gain 14cfm with larger tubing, same thing as a "BOOSTER" yes it boosts cfm I believe, but does not increase HG. Your vac is what your pump does it doesn't magically increase because you put a tank half way up the line.

[doocat]

Can anyone post a link to the Cornell chart for friction loss on vacuum?

Thanks, Craig

[Amber Gold]

I think it makes sense. Gases are like liquids and there is friction loss in a pipe...smaller the pipe, the more the friction loss, so the less flow (cfm) you'll get. Being on the FD, the flow rates on a 1.5" hose vs. a 2.5" hose is dramatically different...don't remember them off the top of my head. By creating vacuum, we're moving air out of the system and need to account for friction loss in sizing pipes.

A booster is basically a vacuum reservoir/tank, it don't think it boosts cfm. I don't use them personally, but I could see where they could prove useful in some circumstances.

[GeneralStark]

Can anyone post a link to the Cornell chart for friction loss on vacuum?

Thanks, Craig

http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/web/schedule.htm

If you go into the vacuum system webinar, you can download the "workbook" documents which contain the charts you are looking for.

[adk1]

I have been using the both the Max Flow Grip and Flex this past year. On the most recent rolls that I bought, I noticed that the Max Flow Grip is now looking more like Leader 30P! Has there been a change in the formulation???? IN fact, I thought I picked up the wrong roll on my last purchase, thinking that maybe I grabbed the Leader 30P rolls instead of the Leader Max Flow Grip. Nope, it's just looking more like 30P...is the 30P less expensive to manufacture?

their new Catalog states that it has been "reformulated" for 2013 so yes, it has changed.

[adk1]

Noticed the price of gas lately? At least part of it is likely due to the price of oil. Plastics are primarily petroleum-based products. Oil goes up, the cost of plastics goes up.

I totally understand that, interesting how that is the only tubing that went up in price, which is good, wonder why. Well, as long as they drop their price if the gas prices drop then I will be satisfied :)

[DrTimPerkins]

Well, as long as they drop their price if the gas prices drop then I will be satisfied :)

Generally with petroleum by-products like this, it doesn't track gas prices exactly. Gas has a fairly quick cycle with a high volume and high turnover. In secondary prodcuts, there is some lag in prices going up (the manufacturers absorb the prices for a while, then it goes up), and some lag coming back down again (because it takes a while to move out the inventory made from the material they paid more for). A lot of it depends upon the quantity of raw material (polyethylene pellets) on hand at the maple manufacturer, the volume of material they purchase from their suppliers, the contracts they have with their suppliers, and where they are in the pricing cycle (did they buy a big volume just before it went up, or at the peak price). Some of the price increase is probably also due to shipping the raw material....given the fuel "surcharges" that some places add now.

[mapleack]

Hopefully we'll see some reduction or at least stabilization in plastic prices in the next 5 years. Currently most polyethylene is made from imported crude oil, subject to high prices and global instability. Large volumes of ethane are being discovered in areas of the marcellus shale in Western Pennsylvania / Eastern Ohio and in the Utica shale in Eastern Ohio / Western Pennsylvania. Ethane can be "cracked" to turn it into ethylene, no crude oil needed. Plans are underway to build a pipeline to transport ethane to an existing "cracker" plant in Ontario and also Royal Dutch Shell is possibly building one just West of Pittsburgh. Hopefully all this will mean more stable if not cheaper prices for plastic and tubing for maple producers!

[DrTimPerkins]

Hopefully all this will mean more stable if not cheaper prices for plastic and tubing for maple producers!

Only time will tell.

[adk1]

Maybe I should tell my BIL not to sell his old gooseneck tubing system just in case. Might not be as good and as efficient as tubing but doesnt cost him one red cent every year