curious

[Rand Hill Maple]

does anyone know who the largest producer in New York is?

[Greenwich Maple Man]

does anyone know who the largest producer in New York is?

I thought it was you or Crown Maple is Southern NY. By the way I'm the guy in Greenwich who bought the R.O and releasers this season. Welcome to Mapletrader.

[Rand Hill Maple]

crown maple has 25000 and they think their the biggest, they do make a lot of syrup though

[Brian Ryther]

Rumor has it that despite doubbling there (crown maple) tap count this season they made 1/2 of what they made last season.

[Rand Hill Maple]

we ended up about normal of what we usually make

[flooder]

how did you make normal when everyone else in the country did half?

[Rand Hill Maple]

That's the question, im not going to give out the exact figures, but we did yeild about average, i guess its just the majority of our bushes stayed cold long enough

[sirsapsalot]

Thats not a very good answer from someone who's last name is Smart.:)

[Rand Hill Maple]

idk it just ran good for a couple days stright for a couple weeks

[argohauler]

So a safe guess would be you made at least 10500 US gals. from 40000 taps. One honkin' lot of syrup!

[220 maple]

argohauler,
The "new" normal is half a gallon to the taphole, he has 40000 taps on vacuum, my guess 20000 gallons of syrup or more. New Normal thats a laugh

Mark 220 Maple

[Greenwich Maple Man]

That's the question, im not going to give out the exact figures, but we did yeild about average, i guess its just the majority of our bushes stayed cold long enough

They probebly just plug the tree into all those wind mills up there and pump them dry !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ha ha. So Brady how are you related to David or Dwight ?

[Greenwich Maple Man]

crown maple has 25000 and they think their the biggest, they do make a lot of syrup though

Form what I hear the owner of Crown Maple couldn't make syrup if he had to. Big money just trying to buy there way to the top. Gross! They certainly aren't buying much respect in the industrie.

[Rand Hill Maple]

hahaha, very true and he's buddies with mike ferrel who knows so much, but yet needs help writing his own book because he doesnt have any experience. and im david's son

[RustyBuckets]

Crown Mpale put in 30,000 taps this year. Claiming they are the largest in the state, plus all there advanced technology no one else has and there unique flavored syrups and all the other BS they claim on there website. Just take a look if you don't believe me. There heads are pretty swollen. http://www.crownmaple.com

[Rand Hill Maple]

haha ive seen their the "largest in new york" just people who have no respect for the people who've had to work for success in the maple industry, all they did was reached into their wallet on a rainy day

[RustyBuckets]

They didnt reach into their wallets, Chuck Schumar reached into ours and gave it to them. They have Schumar in there back pocket and are a disgrace to the industry with there BS they spew.

[Rand Hill Maple]

they have a picture on their website of one of their trees, its so small that most producers wouldnt even tap it, but thats not all they had 2 taps in the tree

[Butcher]

Wow, crown maple must have magical trees, there website says thier trees close up within 3 weeks of pulling the spile, thats amazing!!!.

[sirsapsalot]

They remove 90% of the water with a RO. They must have to buy alot of b grade from someone to get dark amber or any flavor at all.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

They remove 90% of the water with a RO. They must have to buy alot of b grade from someone to get dark amber or any flavor at all.

Don't go overboard on this. Those of us who boil 20% concentrate have removed 90% of the water with our Ro's and I think you will find many of us have won awards for the taste and quality of our syrup, I don't like their attitude about being better than the rest of us either but we need to be careful that our criticism is accurate.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Wow, crown maple must have magical trees, there website says thier trees close up within 3 weeks of pulling the spile, thats amazing!!!.

Crown Maple is a joke along with the owner. Plus as stated in this thread all of us taxpayers are paying for there setup. Another joke. They are a disgrace to the industrie and plane liers as well. I know for a fact that they have ripped there help on pay as well.

[Butcher]

They seem to mislead consumers , next thing they will have on there website is thay its a cure for cancer and erectile dysfunction.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

They seem to mislead consumers , next thing they will have on there website is thay its a cure for cancer and erectile dysfunction.

One things for sure they sure are in tight with whoever is incharge of all the free money from the goverment. I would rather know I payed for it myself then all the taxpayers around.

[RustyBuckets]

Just another case of the rich feeding off the poor. And then bashing the pride we have by disgracing what maple syrup really is with a bunch of BS lingo and manipulation of words. Please excuse me while I go throw up now.

[Butcher]

I think I missed something, how did they get free money .

[Rand Hill Maple]

ask maple man

[RustyBuckets]

Crown Maple Farm has invested in new, state of the art technologies to produce maple syrup. Crown Maple has 450,000 lineal feet in place for lines of operation that will feed the sap into the collection "sugarhouse" and production facility. When sap is collected, in the ‘sugarhouse’, it meets the green, organic production techniques to produce pure maple syrup. Through this technique, Crown Maple creates .6 gallons of syrup per 1 gallon of sap.
The more I keep reading the more Im starting to think everyone else in this industry just has no idea how to make syrup LOL.

[ToadHill]

What's up with bashing Mike Farrell? I understand why everyone's down on Crown Maple, but I'm not clear what Mike has done to deserve to be bashed on this site.

Also, I would like to know what free government money Crown Maple got.

[Rand Hill Maple]

its not bashing just informing on what he's doing & .6 gal??!! does jesus boil their syrup?

[ToadHill]

Am I getting this? He's saying they are making 0.6 gpt and you don't believe it? Do you have any basis for disbelieving it?

[Rand Hill Maple]

it says they get .6 gal of syrup for every gal. of sap

[whalems]

it says they get .6 gal of syrup for every gal. of sap

Where does it say this? I read thru there web site and did not see anything about .6 gal to every gal of sap. Maybe I missed it.

[sapman]

It obviously all boils down to marketing. They are or have a marketing whizz designing their website, and use language that appeals to their target, upper class customers. But their claims and terminology can certainly seem demeaning to us normal guys. "They may have the purest, highest quality syrup". And so may all of us. They are just really good at blowing their own horn.

I'd like to see their operation. I'm sure it's interesting. But I'd keep it all in proper perspective.

[Rand Hill Maple]

rusty buckets posted it, and yeah but im still searching for the largest producer

[chevypower]

"Produced by Robb and Lydia Turner and their team on their majestic 800-acre wooded farm, featuring ideal climate and soil conditions that can be found only in Dutchess County, N.Y., Crown Maple Syrup combines the best of nature with state-of-the-art production for a refined taste found in no other syrup or sweetener."

Wow.... the stuff on their website is almost comical :lol:.... too bad there are a lot of naive people out there.

[ToadHill]

OK maybe I misunderstood something. The 0.6 gpt reference had to do with Crown Maple correct? That I don't care about. There are lots of folks that make 0.5 gpt and more. Check out the production records for Proctor Research.

What I'm curious about was why Mike Farrell is being bashed on this site? I'm still waiting for an answer.

[Rand Hill Maple]

its not gpt, it said .6 gal of syrup for every gal of sap, and dont beat me up because i was informing the public that mike was asking for advice on this book

[whalems]

its not gpt, it said .6 gal of syrup for every gal of sap,

Where does "it" say this?

[Rand Hill Maple]

someone else posted it

[RustyBuckets]

http://schumer.senate.gov/Newsroom/record.cfm?id=332611&&year=2011&

[sirsapsalot]

Hey if Crown Maple cant spend all of the 20 million new york is giving out tell your senator to send the rest to me. I would love to be able to run around my farm with a sweeter around my neck while Betty Crocker is in the kitchen cooking away.:D

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

OK, I have read the stuff. Nowhere does it say there is "government" money involved in building this operation. There is talk about the proposed "Tap Act" which would provide possible grants and research $'s but this act is still just a proposal and has gone nowhere so far. Personally, I would be glad to see some research money but the idea of encouraging expansion of production is not needed. We seem to be doing that well enough on our own. (When Mother Nature cooperates). Huge expansion in production without a corresponding expansion in market demand will hurt us all. The Schumer article was apparently written by someone who knows nothing about syrup production and that person has confused gallons of syrup per tap with gallons of syrup per gallon of sap. As far as .6 gallons per tap, the figures were from 2011, an ideal year, and the operation had all new, state of the art vacuum system, the finest that money can buy. I certainly would hope that under those conditions, they would show those kind of production numbers.
These people have big bucks behind them and a great marketing team ( notice their prices? about $60/ quart in a fancy bottle). They are marketing themselves, not maple syrup. There could be some positive spinoff for all of us. Perhaps maple will begin to be used by some of their fancy customers who will discover that just as good (or better) product is available at half the price. I am not enamored with such approaches to any business. Big dollars or size of operation do not make for better quality. Efficiency can be measured in many ways. The syrup they produce will be no different in reality than the syrup any of us produce. We do not all have the means to immediately jump in big with all the latest whizz bang technology and we resent being belittled by innuendo and half truths of advertising. Having operations of this size and type as our "competition" is part of being part of a "market economy".

[ToadHill]

hahaha, very true and he's buddies with mike ferrel who knows so much, but yet needs help writing his own book because he doesnt have any experience. and im david's son

Rand Hill, It's not my intention to "beat you up", but you made a derogatory statement about Mike Farell that I think is unfair and whether you think so or not, your statement comes across like bashing. We should thank the folks that do research on our behalf. We are all better off for it. Should we question them about their research rather than blindly accepting it? Yes, but we shouldn't criticize them unless we have a sound basis for doing so. Someone asking for help isn't a good reason.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Upon reading their "Processing the Concentrate" they should be real proud of themselves with all the misleading wording.

example 1. We protect our trees by using small, 5/16th-inch holes that close up within three weeks after removing the taps at the end of the sap season.

Impossible on the closing up.

example 2. We use a unique Reverse Osmosis unit – the only one of its kind in the US,

Hell no 2 are plumbed the same so they are all unique. What a crock.

example 3. Using reverse osmosis to remove most of the water is far superior because it protects the delicate sap from prolonged exposure to heat which causes burning and excess carmelization.

Not sure how it protects it from burning. "excess carmelization" Where the hell did that term ever come from

example 4. This allows us to remove the remaining excess water and produce a maple syrup with a sugar content of precisely 66.0 brix at the time of barreling.

Maybe they can but I doubt that it is always exactly 66.0. But wait a minute if it were exactly 66.0 why do they need to do this..... "For good measure, we test and sample the maple syrup for consistency when each barrel is ¼ full and then again when it’s topped off and label it with sugar count, color grade"

example 4. The hot syrup (218 degrees) is twice-filtered with a special filtering medium and a Syrup Press

"special filtering medium" making it sound like no one else uses anything like it.... give me a break

example 5. custom-made, three-stage Evaporator that is one of the largest and most energy-efficient ever built

that is a statement that says nothing. "one" of the largest built, out of how many.... Its not a 6x18, or 6x20 those were the largest built (that I know of)

example 6. Syrup as either Light Amber, Medium Amber or Dark Amber

Wait a minute, I thought earlier their process only made light syrup because of their "unique" methods.


I know this is a corporate business and they are going to do everything in their power to sell THEIR product, but holy crap what a pile they have written. I would be ashamed of myself to put my name anywhere near that advertising.

[spud]

Thad I agree with everything you said, although I see the same BS with several smaller producers here on Trader. The little guy trying to sell at the local flee market for $60.00 a gallon is bashing the quality of the guy three tables down for selling at $38.00 They say watch out for that syrup because it could not be good if selling at that price. They discredit his whole operation and accuse him of hurting the industry as a whole. All the lies and half truths they tell make me want to throw up. All I am trying to do is feed my family and make enough to pay the bills. If this is making others mad I do not care. I always wish others well and hope they have a great season so they to can feed their family's. There is always going to be people like Crown Maple or the guy that slow boils the old fashion way. They make a fool out of themselves but don't realize it. It's all just part of the maple fun and it gives us all something to talk about.

Spud

[mapleack]

As I said in another thread on this topic: This thread is kind of like a 7th grader peaking left and right in the locker room. Learn everything you can about maple, make the best syrup you can and share the knowledge you gain with others. Tap counts might make us feel good but don't truly matter.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Thad I agree with everything you said, although I see the same BS with several smaller producers here on Trader. The little guy trying to sell at the local flee market for $60.00 a gallon is bashing the quality of the guy three tables down for selling at $38.00 They say watch out for that syrup because it could not be good if selling at that price. They discredit his whole operation and accuse him of hurting the industry as a whole. All the lies and half truths they tell make me want to throw up. All I am trying to do is feed my family and make enough to pay the bills. If this is making others mad I do not care. I always wish others well and hope they have a great season so they to can feed their family's. There is always going to be people like Crown Maple or the guy that slow boils the old fashion way. They make a fool out of themselves but don't realize it. It's all just part of the maple fun and it gives us all something to talk about.

Spud

Well said Spud. Anybody who advertises like that is a jerk plain and simple.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Its the half truths and added mystery that the rest of us have been trying to do away with that is hurting the industry as a whole. These people have been at it for a couple years and the people writing it probably never have done it. Stupid games people play.

[GeneralStark]

Crown has lots of trust fund money to throw around, so they hired a crew to setup their woods like many woods are set up and use the same equipment others use to make syrup. They just have a clever marketer that most can't afford to "spin" the story and "brand" them in a certain way that makes them sound different from other producers when in reality they are doing the same thing. If you know anything about producing maple syrup it is clear that they are full of it, but if you are a consumer from NYC with some money and little clue is is easy to be duped into thinking they have something special with their extra special maple syrup with a fancy bottle and label.

It is sort of like the idea some clever VT Sugarmakers had to call light syrup "fancy" and make the tourists think it was special.

[CBOYER]

Every PURE maple syrup is created equal....

[Thad Blaisdell]

Every PURE maple syrup is created equal....

Now I have to disagree with that statement. I have been to some sugarhouses that I would not eat my own lunch in, let alone a product they were producing.

[Like Minded Farmer]

I know a man who placed his ad for fire wood and it said something to the likes of " natural forest, farm raised firewood" and the price was 450/cord, 300/half cord, 200/1/4 cord and 100/ 1/8 cord and he had a delivery charge on top of this. The idea of this bs sent the other firewood dealers into a high speed wobble and I heard all about it when ever I worked on their equipment. Anyways, he sold out on his expensive wood because the yuppies from the city who wanted a small pile of wood for their 4th floor condo fire place bought it to make themselves feel green or whatever it made them feel like. He would travel 50 miles to the city to carry an eighth cord of wood up an elevator and down a quarter mile hall way.

These other guys would never even travel to the city, let alone carry wood on a hand truck into a condo complex, nor would their customers ever pay those prices for any kind of wood. So the way I see it, these others, complaining, were missing the part where he had priced himself out of their customer base with his farm raised wood, leaving more business for them.

These folks with the fancy marketing have probably not taken any of your customers with prices like 60.00 for a quart of syrup and therefore I see it that none of their 15,000 gallons of syrup per year has made it to your customers table, thereby leaving your sales opportunity alone.

It is funny to read some of the bs on their site and get a good chuckle but just like these other fire wood dealers, too much bashing starts to make them look petty.

I noticed that right after this less than terrific sugar season ended, there has been more than normal picking going on here. Maybe frustration or early spring woke the bears up before the food supply is availible???????????

I hope the good folks on this "great site" don't let this become a habit like what happened on some other sites that I don't bother with anymore.

[motowbrowne]

I don't really want to have anything to do with this conversation, but wanted to say I agree wholeheartedly with Like Minded Farmer. I get a good price for the syrup that I produce in Wisconsin. I don't sell any in bulk, but I understand the appeal of those who do. I also don't sell any in a fancy whiskey bottle for $60/quart, but if I had the money for a website like that, albeit I would put more "real" information and less fluff, I wouldn't mind selling for a premium. However, I can only hope that no one would waste their valuable time talking s**t about me on the internet. Honestly, who cares what somebody sells their syrup for unless they are your neighbor and they are doing something that directly influences your ability to sell your product. I don't really mind that the amish folks near me sell for half the price because I sell out every year anyway. I am a "hobby" producer, certainly, large operators I would think should hold themselves to a higher standard of professionalism. I understand that you guys are in a tiff because their site makes everyone else's syrup sound like tar, but has anyone noticed a loss in market share from it? Was anyone else planning on being featured on Martha Stewart or challenging New York chef's to create new recipes? And even if you were, I still think that the language being espoused on this post is extremely unprofessional. Any educated consumer should be more than able to find a better price on a similar product. I painstakingly research almost anything I buy including maple syrup, and a simple internet search will yield tons of results for syrup for sale. From a customer's standpoint I would personally like to be able to find out as much as I could about a producer before purchasing. I might even read up on the leading maple syrup forum to see who I might like to buy from. Anyone partaking in petty banter would certainly be off the list. If you want people to buy your syrup, give them all of the info they want, put what you think is a fair price on it, and let them decide. If somebody is spreading false info about the industry, talk to them about it personally. That's all I have to say.

[Rand Hill Maple]

In the end they have a better market where they are, and they still work as hard as the rest of us, no matter where they got the money to start.

[220 maple]

Brady,
Back to the original question, As of this year you probably have the largest operation in New York. What I have heard that their goal is somewhere over 200,000 taps. Leader had asked a tubing installer down here to send a crew to help. He didn't send anyone last Summer. He said it's to far from home base, I believe he has plenty of work for his crew closer to home.

Mark 220 Maple

[ToadHill]

If someone wants to charge a high price for their syrup. That should be their prerogative. If they can get that high price then good for them. If someone charges a low price because they have an advantage in their operation that allows them to produce it for less and they are making enough money to keep them happy then good for them. If you are undercharging for your product because you don't know what your cost to produce it is then you are not only hurting yourself, but you are hurting others also. In that case I think the others have a right to speak up. It's easy to say that if someone undercharges they won't be in business very long, but unfortunately in our industry that isn't true. Many people subsidize their maple operation with real money made elsewhere and treat it like a business when in reality it's just a hobby. Those that depend on their maple business either in whole or in part end up getting hurt in the process and all of their work is shortchanged.

As for the Crown Maple advertising and some of the discussion on this site, I do think we need to keep it professional and avoid the "petty banter". However, I don't see anything wrong with identifying a producer who is putting out misinformation that is damaging to our industry. Whether we see it directly or not, when a high profile business paints a picture of our industry that is unflattering, then ultimately it will hurt our business. A lot of folks have worked very hard for many years to raise the profile of the maple industry and we all work hard to produce the best product possible. It is disheartening when someone disparages that work. Whether they have a lot of money or how they develop their business shouldn't matter as long as they aren't doing it dishonestly. The sad thing is, they could be an asset to the industry and still get their market share, but unfortunately this is what you get when you inject corporate marketing tactics into a cottage industry like ours.

Just my opinions.

[Rand Hill Maple]

200000? that would be like the largest in the world! on the site it said they wanted to stop at 30000

[Greenwich Maple Man]

200000? that would be like the largest in the world! on the site it said they wanted to stop at 30000

Can you imagine tapping 200k. That would be crazy If you could make a 1/2 gal. pert tap = 100,000 gals. I could retire in half a season and sell the busniness to a nut crazy enough to buy it !

[220 maple]

My bad fellow traders, I found my info on the same schumer info that claims .6 to a gallon of sap, I rechecked it ,30000 taps for next season which I guess was this Spring , but they can handle 400,000 taps on the 950 acre farm in the future? The humor of this, are they going to put 370,000 taps on the remaining 150 acres? Is this an additional 950 acres with the original 800 acres? I'm sure I read somewhere on the net that Rob stated he would have 200,000 taps when done. I believe it was in a Troy, NY newspaper article? I'll research the web again and see if I can find the quote. The schumer site info is under the heading Betting on the Hudson Valley.

Mark 220 Maple

[Thad Blaisdell]

400,000 taps at 75 taps per acre would take 53,333 acres.

[mapleack]

You're off a digit Thad, it would be 5,333. Very doable to put together in say a 5 mile radius some places, with enough money.

[220 maple]

Thanks Brady for starting this thread, every now and then one gets started like this. I hate to see it end. Hopefully sometime this Summer I'll get a chance to walk a 1200 acre tract that the landowner said it's 85 to 90 percent Sugarmaples. We figure 80 taps to the acre. 90,000 taps with enough money. The sad part of this story we would not be eligible for any of the Maple Tap Act money because we are not considered a Maple Producing state! Consider yourself lucky Sen. Schumer is using the taxpayers money for you.

Mark 220 Maple