Question about THinning

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I am working on thinning out our Sugarbush and was looking for people's opinions. I am wondering if Yellow Birch are valuable enough (some are good logs) to save and maybe even tap someday. I've read on here people getting $80 a liter for Birch Syrup. I don't plan on saving anything on at least 3 sides of the Sugar Maples, but if on the fourth side it is a nice Yellow Birch, is it worth saving and tapping? I would guess in our woods we have well over a 1000 yellow birch's.

[maple flats]

The yellow birch aspect is up to you but if your woods need thinning badly, don't open 3 sides all at once. Too much removed all at the same thinning exposes the remaining trees to too much wind and windthrow is an issue. A more common name is up-rooting or blow downs. You will do best by opening 1 or 2 sides this year and after the trees respond in a few years open the 3rd, Normally you would open even slower to reduce epicormic branching (sprouting from dormant branch buds in the bark). This degrades a sawlog, but more leaves make more sugar so as a syrup producer we actually like it. The windthrow aspect is a real threat. Removing too much competition at one time exposes the remaining trees to more wind. These trees need time to develop the root structure to hold against the new wind. A tree grown in the open develops a wider root structure that one grown in a grove with "buddies" for protection. As you open the woods for better crown developement you must also give the root structure time to grow into it's new, bigger job. If you are in a relatively protected area I'd wait about 5 years, if you are in a wind prone area I'd wait 10 years before doing the next stage of opening the woods.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Thanks for the information. In some areas, the three or four sides are already opened. So I may end up having some uprooting. but I will take your advise and take a more tactical approach rather than just killing everything that is trying to steal nutrients from my maples.

[PerryW]

Have you tasted Birch Syrup? My impression is that Birch tapping if for areas that have no maples.

[tuckermtn]

up until about 6 months ago, yellow birch logs were about the most reliable high grade sawlog. The market softened a little bit a few months ago, but having said that, yellow birch is still a very desirable sawlog. The nicest yellow birch I have ever cut came out of a sugarbush, so keep the value of the logs in mind as you go through your management planning. If you want specifics on prices and buyers, let me know...

[GeneralStark]

Thanks for the information. In some areas, the three or four sides are already opened. So I may end up having some uprooting. but I will take your advise and take a more tactical approach rather than just killing everything that is trying to steal nutrients from my maples.

I would also suggest taking a slow approach and not thinning too aggressively. In addition to the windthrow issues, letting a lot of light in all at once may allow any invasives to really take off in the understory. Their seeds are everywhere just waiting for light. They will be very difficult to manage and them taking nutrients from your maples will be the least of your issues.

Are the cull trees maples or other species? If they are maples you could tap them as you slowly thin them out and open up more space for the crop trees. Small maples will produce and they can be sweet.

Additionally, there is a good case to be made for maintaining a more diverse sugarbush and not removing everything but the maples. Monocultures tend to be more susceptible to disease and pests. There are several pests coming our way and it is best to be prepared.

[maple flats]

The General is right about invasives and mono culture. A diverse forest IS healthier, just skew it to maple. Stands hit the hardest in any infestation are the stands with little variety.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

All good information that will help me, thanks. And yeah I would be interested in prices for different types of wood. I am not cutting any Rocks at this point, just everything else. I am planning on a diverse wood lot with some ASH, Yellow B, White B, and Beech's. But hadn't considered dealing with the new undergrowth. I think from all the advise I have received I will open 2 sides for now and wait 3-5 years to see how the trees react before opening up the rest. Thanks again for the info.

On the other side of my question, does anyone know of an operation that makes Birch Syrup on a high vac system. I mean for me to tap the Yellow's in my woods it wouldn't be much more than tubing as I have a wet /dry grid on most of the property( or will soon) anyway. Does anyone know how much Syrup per tap a Yellow will produce if it's on 25" of vac (or even on gravity) I'm into making money using what you got. I know that usually in Vt and other high maple dense areas that it seems wrong to tap a yellow. But as I understand the seasons don't over lap. That Yellow Birch Syrup production happens just after Maple production ends, right? So in theory, I could untap my maples and tap the yellows using the same main lines. Maybe make 100 Gal of Birch Syrup at $300 per Gallon +/-. Seems like good money so long as you have an RO. Does anyone know of someone inf VT, NY, ME, NH who does this already? Not saying that is what I am going to do it, just curious if people have tried it around here

[BC Birch Tapper]

We've talked to several maple producers who have started tapping birch. They typically flow after maple & as you already have the infrastructure it would certainly be a good idea to give it a go. It is very different as it is a different tree, different sugar & different end use. We've sold the Birch Syrup Production Manual to several maple producers already.
You typically get 3 t o4 litres of sap per tree per day over the season but the sugar content is much lower than maple. Typically 100 or 120 to 1. Several folks are using RO's with good success.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Is that 3-4 liters on vacuum, or gravity? And what do people use the stuff for? and how much does it really sell for? Thanks

I was also wondering if anyone knew information for me about my thinning of the Sugarbush. Is it is better to leave the tops in the woods or to pile and burn them?

[GeneralStark]

Is that 3-4 liters on vacuum, or gravity? And what do people use the stuff for? and how much does it really sell for? Thanks

I was also wondering if anyone knew information for me about my thinning of the Sugarbush. Is it is better to leave the tops in the woods or to pile and burn them?

Just leave the tops in the woods and they will fertilize the soil as they break down over time. It's not always pretty but keeping the nutrients in the woods is better in the long run. Whatever I don't remove for firewood I leave, or cut and pile if it's in an area I want to easily get around in.

[tuckermtn]

I sent you a PM for your email- I can email you a price spreadsheet for logs that I keep as part of my job.

[Sugarbush Ridge]

Don't do any burning in the sugarbush. Maples are damaged very easliy by not just the actual fire, but just the heat from the flames can cause damage at 10-15 or maybe more feet from the fire. In 1 to 3 years you'll see a damaged spot on a tree and thinking back,,,, oh, that's the side to the fire I had over there.

[Sugarbush Ridge]

Question,,,,, How is the best way to get the small stumps to die after thinning? Is there a better time of the year? Or do I have to do it according the moon sign which would only be 2 or 3 days at a time? What I cut early last fall,,,,, I think almost every one had suckered out and will soon have a worse mess than I had before.

[maple flats]

Roundup stump treatment (read and follow label directions) works fairly well. Of the species you mention the beech has a tendency to become an invasive if allowed. Read up on various methods of control. What beech does, is it has a large root structure, spread far beyond the drip line. Those roots will sprout new shoots if the ground where a beech was removed has sunlight. As soon as you see new shoots (check 1-2x annually, treat with roundup (again read and follow label directions).
Still, some beech is GOOD to have, just don't let it take over. If left unchecked you will get a beech thicket in a few years after cutting down a large beech, this thicket will choke out everything else. It will choke out young sugar maples, however a mature sugar maple IS dominant.

[Brokermike]

There is a great new book out, a very easy read, called "More than a woodlot: managing your family forest" it is put out by Northern Woodlands magazine. It has great thinning strategies and discusses sugarbush management. For $20 it is money super well spent

[Sugarbush Ridge]

Thanks Dave,,,, now just to find the book that came with the Roundup. The land I bought has just been woods and never managed for sugarbush. Logged of in 1970 which let a lot of maple grow and then about 10-12 years ago the large maple :( were cut, all before I bought it. Part of my mother's farm. So now leaving underbush to thick to walk thru much less carry buckets or run tubing, which I hope to do some this year. A couple thousand wrist size and under per arce of maple. ash, hickory and elm. My first time thru is just cutting the wrist size and under. Left so much brush on ground still couldn't walk over it. I've taken my tractor and just run over it just to get the stuff to lay more on the ground. I'm kind of suprised of how much it has flattened out over the winter.

[Sugarbush Ridge]

Don't burn!!!!!!!!!! you can scorch the side of a maple with just the heat from a fire and then have big dead spot on trees. I hurt a bunch of them before i saw what I was doing. Leave the tops to rot down, Maybe use a chainsaw to cut them up some more to it in the ground soomer to rot quicker

[GV2]

I know most replies say do not burn but in the last few years I have built small kilns around stumps and burned them all day. It s a good way to get rid of debris obstacles in your woods and a good excuse to sit in front of a a fire all day out in your maple stand before the first snowfall. Putting a bag of charcoal on the stump before retiring for the evening usually gets the job done. I had to fill in holes left behind after the stump burned below ground level. I am new to the forum so I hope my attempt attached a picture worked.

[GeneralStark]

You could also use the stumps and culls to cultivate mushrooms on. One more product you can get from your woods.

[Sugarbush Ridge]

I had not thought of building "kiln" but where I cleared for the house I had so much brush to get rid if that I had "big" fires. Also to me,,, a maple stump is one of the harder ones to burn out, To much of stump below ground level and they stay too wet to burn.

[Michael Greer]

First time through. you take out the trees that are damaged, broken or diseased. Small stuff makes excellent sugar wood. Second time through (and that first pass may take years), take out everything that's misshapen or crowded with no crown. This might also take years, but you need sugarwood every year, and it comes from the same sugar-bush as the next years sap. Clean up the clutter, and don't burn anything except in the woodstove or arch. Waste not, want not.

[Michael Greer]

Let's not be anal about the stumps. Cut 'em short, and let 'em rot. It's not like it's your front yard or anything...there are rocks and sticks and you could trip over a skunk, but that's part of being in the woods eh?

[maple flats]

Thanks Dave,,,, now just to find the book that came with the Roundup. The land I bought has just been woods and never managed for sugarbush. Logged of in 1970 which let a lot of maple grow and then about 10-12 years ago the large maple :( were cut, all before I bought it. Part of my mother's farm. So now leaving underbush to thick to walk thru much less carry buckets or run tubing, which I hope to do some this year. A couple thousand wrist size and under per arce of maple. ash, hickory and elm. My first time thru is just cutting the wrist size and under. Left so much brush on ground still couldn't walk over it. I've taken my tractor and just run over it just to get the stuff to lay more on the ground. I'm kind of suprised of how much it has flattened out over the winter.
For any pesticide search, just google it and you can get it right online. You must specify the manufacturer (many call all glyphosate roundup, you must use the label meant for your specific product, labels are not legally interchangeable). Sorry for the long delay with this answer, I've been real busy getting spring work done. Even though many use products out of label, in fact you can get in legal trouble if you get caught. (I know, as I'm a certified applicator, private, fruit and have had many classes and tests over the years.)

[sugarsand]

When we are thinning or removing dead or damaged trees, I always cut them as close to the ground as possible without getting into the dirt, then let nature take over. This helps prevent ripping a tractor tire on the smaller stumps that arn"t easily seen. I have read some good advice about thinning to fast. Our woods had abundance of Hemlock which does not make for a good sugarbush and is the first I"d like to see gone.Hemlock makes up about 80% of our sugarwood, with the remaining 20% being pine or hardwoods that are broken or dead. I only cut enough to stay two years ahead on the sugarwood. As much I dislike Hemlock it does make excellent sugarwood after air drying for two years

sugarsand