leader VS. others

[spencer11]

what is so great about leader tubing that makes it so expensive? i was looking for cheaper tubing last night and saw that lapierrie's at the maple guys is $45 a roll, where leaders is $53 a roll. why is it sooo much more expensive? i think it is the most expensive tubing out there. or at least that i have seen.

spencer

[500592]

I got the h2o innovations tubing and love it I will be getting that latteral line and leader mainline for our next expansion

[spencer11]

ive never heard of that. where did you get it? and how much?

spencer

[flooder]

you think their tubing's expensive,you should check out the rest of their stuff

[spencer11]

yeah i know, ive looked, just on there site not so much at evaporators and RO's. i always compare them and bascoms, and bascoms is alot cheaper. just yesterday i sw a GALVANIZEDmainline tensioner at leader is $5, at bascoms a STAINLESS one is $5. why the price difference? everything there is sooo expensive.

spencer

[flooder]

just the temporary grading kit is $9.oo more tan cdl.

[spencer11]

yep! i think its $10 more than bascoms where i got mine.

spencer

[sugaringman85]

personally i think the leader 30P tubing is the best out there. I use a cdl tubing for my drop lines...which is actually more expensive than the leader 30P. I take my advice from a guy that has about 10k taps and has done a lot of research. Plus I have installed and helped out with other tubings and its nothing compared to the 30p. Just my two cents...aint much!

[spencer11]

im trying the lapierre semi ridig tubing and see how it compairs. personelly i dont like the 30p, i like the max grip, it springs right back up real nice. but it is very sretchy and flexiable which i dont like for lats. that and the cost is why im trying another brand.

spencer

[sugaringman85]

not a fan of their max grip or their other one max flex or something like that. horrible lat line tubing

[spencer11]

i like the grip of it, but not how stretchy the max grip. so im trying something else..and it will also be less $$$

spencer

[MilesTeg]

max grip was intended for drop lines not lateral lines. In this aspect it works very well because you don't end up twisting the fittings to install the taps. When ever you twist taps you max the potential for a vac leak there. I know im in the minority I like the leader tubing alot, but all the other stuff I would do alot of shopping around.

[gmcooper]

I have some of almost everyones tubing somewhere in the woods. Over all the 30P has been the best in my opinion. I used Leaders max for drop lines this year and really liked it over Laperier semi rigid. I put up 16 rolls of Laperier $45 a roll tubing this year because it was cheaper and I could pick it up 4 miles from the house. I have never had as many sags at the end of the season with new tubing. Really diapointed with it. Wish I stayed with 30P. Now a couple years ago Leaders 30P was a good deal compared with the other brands. Now if anyone wants I know where there is some Small Brothers green tubing from about 1990ish. The stuff looked like wet green spaghetti hanging from trees. You could tighten it about twice a day and it still sagged. At the end of 2or3 seasons it was about the diameter of a coffee stirrer.

[spencer11]

i like the the leader tubing but its so expensive. the max grip said it was for lateral lines, but could also be used for drop..thats what it said on there website at least.

spencer

[Potters3]

I bought my tubing last year at Leaders open house special prices and paid $45 for the 30p for lats and $45 for the max grip for drops. Don't just look at there list price, go to there openhouse or call a dealer for a better deal. Damian Branon is there dealer in Franklin county and has helped me out a lot. Randy from sales came up and walked a chuck of woods with me and flagged it out to get me started. Both guys where a ton of help and knowledge

[Amber Gold]

I use 30P lats (they claim it has a larger inside diameter), but use lapierre semi-rigid because it's cheaper. I think they both work well.

Question I have is on mainline. 30P mainline is a touch more expensive than CDL/Lapierre, but it's the lightest blue out of all of them. Will the lighter color translate to less bacteria in the mainlines? I'm setting up a new woods and wondering if it's spending a little bit more to get the 30P mainline.

[spencer11]

i was also wondering about the mainline.

spencer

[spud]

All my tubing was bought from WH Supply in Sheldon. I put the tubing up last fall and it is still as tight as can be. I bought all my mainline from Webb's in Saint Albans. Their price is half of what all the dealers charge.

Spud

[GeneralStark]

I use 30P lats (they claim it has a larger inside diameter), but use lapierre semi-rigid because it's cheaper. I think they both work well.

Question I have is on mainline. 30P mainline is a touch more expensive than CDL/Lapierre, but it's the lightest blue out of all of them. Will the lighter color translate to less bacteria in the mainlines? I'm setting up a new woods and wondering if it's spending a little bit more to get the 30P mainline.

The lighter color will translate to being able to better see all the crap that grows in your mainlines and then stays there despite washing. I have many feet of CDL blue for wet lines and it is nice to work with, but I will not be using it anymore. In my opinion the blue is not worth the expense. I just bought 1000'(.1313$/ft) of Charter black and 1000' of Charter grey(.1414$) maple pipe from FW Webb and I am sold. I will be getting all my pipe from them in the future. I'll use black for dry lines and grey in sunny areas for wet lines.

After sitting in on the talk referenced here: http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?15429-Hyde-Park-VT-Maple-School-Highlights/page2&highlight=Hyde+Park+VT I am not so sure blue mainlines are worth the expense.

I'm with Spud on this one.

[maplwrks]

I have used Charter Gray for 10 years now and really like it. I like the Leader, CDL, and Lapierre mainline, but I simply can't afford it.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I have used Charter Gray for 10 years now and really like it. I like the Leader, CDL, and Lapierre mainline, but I simply can't afford it.
ohh Mike lol :)

[maplwrks]

The next woods I setup will be sch. 26 PVC wet / dry lines with Charter gray mains. This makes for a nice clean system.

[spencer11]

does webbs have a web site i can order off of?

spencer

[gmcooper]

Spencer- FW Webb does have a web site but I have no luck with it. They have a special account set up for maple producers and it has the prices built in. I know the prices they quoted a plumber for black plastic was more than I was paying for the same item. I think site is www.fwwebb.com Your best bet will be to call your closest branch.
Mark

[500592]

Sorry thelink I wanted didn't work

[spencer11]

are they more of a plumbing website? is the tubing they sell more of a plumbing tubing than a sap tubing?

spencer

[spud]

The pipe they sell is 100 PSI and I run 28 inches of vac in it. It has a thinner wall ( but not much ) It thaws out faster after a deep freeze. It is half the price of blue pipe from the maple dealers. CDL sells it at their store ( but cost more then going right to Webbs ). A tree limb will crush the blue pipe just as easy as it crushes the black Webb pipe. Dollar for dollar it is your best bet in my opinion.

Spud

[farmall h]

Maybe if Leader/CDL/Lapierre would lower their prices we all could have "Maple-grade" tubing in our woods. I'm with all you guys on this one! I have found that even the 160 psi black pipe from Appalachain Supply in St.Johnsbury is even less money than the maple dealers....oh, by the way they are a Dominion & Grimm distributor as of January this year. I believe their NH store is as well.

[500592]

After reading this I think I have made up my mind and I am gonna go with gray charter from Webb I think I am gonna be able to add a lot more taps that way.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Maybe if Leader/CDL/Lapierre would lower their prices we all could have "Maple-grade" tubing in our woods. I'm with all you guys on this one! I have found that even the 160 psi black pipe from Appalachain Supply in St.Johnsbury is even less money than the maple dealers....oh, by the way they are a Dominion & Grimm distributor as of January this year. I believe their NH store is as well.

unfortunately farmall we are in a industry like fire and ems, once a product is made for that specific industry and has that name attached the price quadruples, are you telling me the hundreds of feet of my black pipe isnt maple grade?

[spencer11]

yesterday on my way to madnanock with m friend for his first race, i notice an fw webb store!i never realized there was one in keene! i plan on getting m tubing from there for the time being unless its bad some how, which everone says its good.

spencer

[Amber Gold]

I didn't know Webb carried a grey mainline. I was considering the blue to get away from using black pipe. I'll check it out. Is this price good at all Webb's, or just the ones in maple country?

[Greenwich Maple Man]

yesterday on my way to madnanock with m friend for his first race, i notice an fw webb store!i never realized there was one in keene! i plan on getting m tubing from there for the time being unless its bad some how, which everone says its good.

spencer

I built a couple of woods with the Charter Grey. It worked quite well and was easy to work with. I'm going to use it in the future for sure. I will say that Webbs has great pricing and a good product , for sure they are going to put a hurting on the maple companys, maybe they will get some reasonable price on there pipe now. The grey or black also blends in the woods better if asthetics are a issue at all .

[spencer11]

do they do mainline and lateral line? and how much for a roll or centain abount of feet?

spencer

[adk1]

I try to buy leader everything. The quality is barr none and they are an American company! No offense to the Canadians on here..

[GeneralStark]

I didn't know Webb carried a grey mainline. I was considering the blue to get away from using black pipe. I'll check it out. Is this price good at all Webb's, or just the ones in maple country?

Good question? VT Maple Sugarmaker's Association set up a COD account at FW Webb's so many of the lower prices you hear about here are related to that, but they are having a sale through 4/25 at the prices I quoted above for 3/4". Those prices are good at most of their stores through the 25th. Or you can come to VT and use the COD account # posted in this thread: http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?14828-F-W-Webb&highlight=FW+Webb

[GeneralStark]

I try to buy leader everything. The quality is barr none and they are an American company! No offense to the Canadians on here..

Charter Plastics is a USA company. NY in fact.

[gmcooper]

As I understand Webb's the prices are good at all locations using the maple cod account. All locations may not stock everything. I know ours has quite a bit of space allocated to maple and they just started carrying it in Feb this year. They can transfer to any of thier locations. They carry Laperier tubing. blue or green was $46.10 last time I bought in Feb. Our local branch bought a semi load of mainline to save on $ so they may be less than some branches but I'm not sure.
Mark

[spencer11]

can someone explain this maple account that webb has? im confused about that.

spencer

[500592]

Just email them bout what your looking for that's what I did.

[farmall h]

, are you telling me the hundreds of feet of my black pipe isnt maple grade?
No not saying that at all....I have 80% of black pipe in the woods. Just saying it is not branded as "Maple grade". :)

[spencer11]

it should be food grade, it just isnt maple grade. like plastic buckets from lowes are food grade but like leader collection pails are so called "maple grade" cause they are from leader, not lowes.

spencer

[tuckermtn]

Spencer- there is a good sized FW Webb store in Concord- its up on the heights not to far from Chadwick-Baross (Volvo equipment dealer on Rt 106) and Beaureguard Equipment (also on 106). if you need help with ordering, let me know. I am ordering some charter grey to try it out.

-Eric

[spencer11]

i know where that dealer is. i may go check it out soon and possibly see if they have any tubing there. thanks eric!

spencer

[220 maple]

The best things about Black Plastic Pipeline. You can not see how dirty they are and after a real hard freeze you get to add a splice and a short peice of pipe to put them back together, usually after they have ran sap on the ground all day. Its better to loose it in the wood than wasting oil or wood to boil it. That being said I have lot of Black Plastic Pipe line in my Sugarbushes and I'm slowly replacing it with Leader Mainline.
I can see thru the line and have not had one splice come apart in three years due to cold weather. Disadvantage more sap equals more firewood used, by product is syrup.

Mark 220 Maple

[adk1]

I use max flex and grip and love them

[rchase]

can someone explain this maple account that webb has? im confused about that.

spencer
All of there pricing is locked in on that account to be very competitive with all of the maple supplys. They are a lapierre dealer too. Ryan and nate in keene are really good to deal with. The maple account number is 148554. Keene's phone #603-357-1877. Also fw webb in brattleboro,vt has lots of maple supplys too. brattleboro phone #802-257-4316

[Randy Brutkoski]

Its not maple grade huh. Food grade is food grade in my book. Are you working for leader so they wont lose a sale for someone that is thinking about buying black rather than blue. Most of the big guys up north use black. Leader misleads the consumer quite often on pipe. Saying you lose a grade when using black. With vacuum, sap is in the mainline for seconds. I use black and most of my crop this year was fancy. 1 good thing about blue mainline is that it is nice to work with, but if i replaced all of my blackl with blue i would go broke in a hurry. Just saying..

[220 maple]

Randy,
No I am not a dealer for Leader, If 4 Seasons tubing wasn't so expensive that is all I would have in my woods. I would still like to replace all my black mainline. I deal with heat every season which can lower the grade of syrup.

Mark 220 Maple

[ToadHill]

I've sat on the sidelines and read the posts on this subject with interest. Here are a few of my thoughts. First, I think it's wrong to bash a company simply because they charge more for their product than someone else. The assumption is that the amount they charge above their competitors is profit that they are sticking in their pockets. We don't know that unless we know what their cost to make it is. Maybe (and I don't know the answer to this), but may their overhead to produce it or their material costs are more than their competitors. Maybe not and maybe it is pure profit, but I doubt any of us knows the answer to that unless we've looked at their books.

As for quality, I've use Leader's stuff for years and found it to be very good quality. Point of full disclosure, I used to be a (very small) Leader dealer. I was also a dealer for some other companies for awhile. Leader always treated me and my customers the best and were the most organized. Also, I kind of view this debate a little like the Ford versus Chevy or raised flue versus drop flue debate. A lot has to do with what you are used to. I suspect that all of the companies make some good stuff, but I haven't had a chance to compare all of them. Also, price has a way of influencing our perception of quality. Some people want to play less and think that they are getting better bang for their buck so they convince themselves that the quality is as good or better. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Some people think that if they pay more they are getting better quality. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.

As for the black pipe. If you use it with good luck and make enough light syrup to make you happy then keep using it. If you don't then look for something else. Lew Stats from Cornell did research on this years ago. His conclusion was that black pipe heated the sap considerably and contributed to bacterial growth and darker syrup. Also, keep in mind that bacteria eat sugar, so I guess an argument could be made that it not only reduces quality, but quantity also. Mr. Stats recommendation was to either replace the black pipe or paint it white. But once again, if you are happy with it keep using it.

Here's the kicker for me. Two seasons ago I built a new sugarhouse and I wanted to trade in my 7 year old 5x16 Leader evaporator. It was a Blazer arch with revolution pans, SteamAway and two 701 Carlin burners. I was getting a new 3x10 Vortex with Max Flue Revolution pans, Steamaway, a 1000 gph RO and some misc. smaller stuff. Two reps from Leader were scheduled to stop to my place and figure up a deal. They were traveling from someplace several hours south or west of me. By the time they got to my sugarhouse it was very late and they had been on the road for some time. They still took the time to go through everything with me. When we were all done they gave me a tremendous trade in value on my equipment and a great price on the new stuff. I signed the quote and they left. A few days later they called me and said that they had made a mistake on the quote, but they were going to stand by it. I didn't know what the numbers were. When I got home I pulled the quote and started trying to figure out what the mistake was. They were tired and forgot to include the price of the Vortex arch and something else in the total. Bottom line, it cost them over $14,000 and they ate. They didn't even quibble. They could have backed out of the deal, but they didn't. They could have asked to renegotiate, but they didn't. There are very few people or companies that would live up to an agreement like that. Now I know that some people will say that they could afford to do this because they overcharge. Maybe, maybe not. They've treated me well and I intend to be loyal. Just my experience for what it's worth.

[spencer11]

you bring up a good point, i like all of leaders products, they all work great and are well made. the price is what turns me away, the cheaper stuff may net be as good but its what me(and other people) can afford, especially with me only being 14 i dont have a high regular income. but i do like there products..i just cant afford them at the time.

spencer

[Greenwich Maple Man]

you bring up a good point, i like all of leaders products, they all work great and are well made. the price is what turns me away, the cheaper stuff may net be as good but its what me(and other people) can afford, especially with me only being 14 i dont have a high regular income. but i do like there products..i just cant afford them at the time.

spencer

Leader does make a good product but know better than any other company. The real big producers in Canada very seldom have Leader products. That dosn't mean they have the best either. Plane and simple when a Leader R.O is 7k more than a Lap.or CDL that is just a profit increase for them. If it cost them that much more to produce it then there design must be way off.

[Randy Brutkoski]

well said.

[ToadHill]

Spencer,

You bring up a very valid point. If we all bought only what we could afford we would be much better off. Good luck sugaring.

[ToadHill]

Greenwich Maple Man, Maybe their design is off, but I haven't owned enough RO's to make a fair comparison. Also, they don't manufacture their RO's, which means they are a middle man. As I understand it, some of the other companies manufacture their own, i.e. they cut out the middleman. That alone could account for a significant expense.

[lew]

I look at it like you are going into a grocery store. Some stores sell item A for less than other stores and item B for more. You have to shop around for what you want and compare the price and quality. Sometimes that upsets some dealers, even dealers for the same company, but it's your dollar that's being spent. The only person that you should be upset with is yourself if you spent more on an item than you felt it was worth.

[farmall h]

Thank you for clarifying my point Spencer11.:)

[GeneralStark]

I don't really see why anyone would buy exclusively from one dealer. Prices for different things vary dramatically from one dealer to another. And you can get many things dealers sell from other sellers far cheaper. I but my supplies from about 15 different vendors and like them all. Leader is a nice company though.

[farmall h]

I don't see how this conversation got to the point of down grading Leader products? I buy the majority of my fittings from Leader. I have purchased from other dealers as well. My only gripe is why the mainline tubing can't be priced the same as black water pipe? Jeeesh?

[spencer11]

i agree with the mainline deal, i was going to go with there mainline but now im rethinking that just based on price. it may be better and last longer but if i cant afford it those dont matter at all. now im thinking of going with lapierre or webbs tubing. i like leaders products for the most part but cant afford to buy all leader..and all there prices are more than competators for the same products, such as like candy molds, some tubing tools, containers.

spencer