Soft maples on high vac not producing much

[Butcher]

Anyone else have a problem with trees not giving much on high vac. I was lucky if I got a gallon in a 24hr period on the best run days which was only a couple , but when it didnt freeze I dont think I even got a quart in 24 hrs cant figure it out if this is normal for this year or what.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Anyone else have a problem with trees not giving much on high vac. I was lucky if I got a gallon in a 24hr period on the best run days which was only a couple , but when it didnt freeze I dont think I even got a quart in 24 hrs cant figure it out if this is normal for this year or what.


I'm not trying to be a smart guy, but nothing was or is normal this year. 2012 season was from the pits of hell !

[mapleack]

Give it another year, this one was nuts for most people. I tap at least 60% red maples and averaged 28 gal of sap per tap with 21" of vac, .33 gal of syrup per tap, very fortunate considering the year.

[Butcher]

I understand that it was a horrible year. I will break it down, I tapped one woods on feb 1st 750 taps I stopped on march 11 because of the heat I ended the season with 11.5 gal per tap.my sugar averaged 1.7 all silver maples on swampland pulling an average on that woods of 24" .all brand new taps and is very flat witj 1.25"wet dry lines.

[mapleack]

Well that is perplexing for sure. I looked at the historical weather record for hudson mi for february and temperature wise it looked like you should have had a lot of decent runs.

[PerryW]

Well that is perplexing for sure. I looked at the historical weather record for hudson mi for february and temperature wise it looked like you should have had a lot of decent runs.

If MI is anything like NH this year, the sap did not run when you thought it was going to. Then is ran when it shouldn't have.

[Butcher]

I also have another woods with 2500 taps and a couple times it ran at 300 gal an hour but the wind would pick up and kill it.then it wouldnt freeze for a couple days and the trees would just almost stop completely,lucky if I would get 300gal in a 24 hr period.thats hard to swallow when u put many thousands of dollars into it .this is also a wet dry setup.

[Russell Lampron]

This season I averaged 26" of vacuum on my reds and got 12.5 gallons per tap or about 1/2 what I got last year. I tapped February 7 and shut of the pump for the season on March 20. The weather just didn't cooperate this year. I don't think that it had anything to with the trees being red maples.

[Butcher]

Russell what was ur average sugar content on ur reds,mine are all silvers ,i think they are about like a red they run like crap with buckets.i have around 200 taps per acre they are very denseand also in foot or so of water which is a blast to work in.

[sapman]

Russell what was ur average sugar content on ur reds,mine are all silvers ,i think they are about like a red they run like crap with buckets.i have around 200 taps per acre they are very denseand also in foot or so of water which is a blast to work in.

Wow, your bush is very similar to mine! I have about 1600 soft, last check I think I had about 14 gpt of sap. Got a gal./tap/day a couple times, which only happened once before. I attribute that to changing over from sap ladders. I pulled up to 26" when all was going well, started at 1.6%, down to about 1.3 later. Finished tapping on 2/15. But late when many others were still getting a gal./day/tap, I was like a quart or so. So my results were disappointing, as well.

[Butcher]

Nice to know im not alone,i just wish I knew what the problem is . I always hear other people getting 20to 30 gal per tap it gets frustrating I even used all stainless fittings whatever I could do to make it the best I could.my sugar started at 2.3 went down to 1.5 at lowest.

[Russell Lampron]

Russell what was ur average sugar content on ur reds,mine are all silvers ,i think they are about like a red they run like crap with buckets.i have around 200 taps per acre they are very denseand also in foot or so of water which is a blast to work in.

My sugar was all over ther place depending on the flow rate and how long the run lasted. The longer a run lasted the lower the sugar would be. The highest of the season was 2% and the lowest 1%. The last 2 runs were 1.8% and 1.6%. On a more normal season I will get close to 20 gals per tap.

[Marc Duclos]

I asked about this 3/4/2012, well interesting. Now you guys saying you laeve these pumps on 24/7} What about a reheostat to shut er down when the lines freze up from the releaser upword towors the first lat's. Would this save electricity or the pump? I am in Deerfield and going for 1000 taps. coming from three directons.

[gmcooper]

To the original poster. Aside from the horrible weather this year which did severly impact the sap flow, I tap lots of reds, some sugars and used to tap a few silvers. The silvers were almost all on buckets and some days/ years they ran very well others not so well right next to the reds. I know there were days when the silvers would run great and almost nothing from the reds. I really think they each require a bit different weather pattern to run well. I have a brand new sugarbush just tapped this year that had terrible production. As the season progressed I learned that location is much warmer than my others and definately needs colder night temps to run than my others.
I have a very unhappy book keeper that thinks I spent way too much money installing new tubing this year for the amount of syrup we made.
Mark

[Butcher]

Cooper I think u are correct as to the weather patterns they need.and this year was abnormal to say the least. I dont have a bookkeeper that cares how much I spent,but it certainly bothers me 35000later and not enough syrup to even make the payment.i had plans to put up another 2or 3thousand tap bush but I cant sustain another year like the one we just had,maybe im to cautious but it could happen again,this is not my only business but I really dont like to take from one to pay for the other.

[GeneralStark]

Russell what was ur average sugar content on ur reds,mine are all silvers ,i think they are about like a red they run like crap with buckets.i have around 200 taps per acre they are very denseand also in foot or so of water which is a blast to work in.

Wow. 200 taps/acre? I suspect you have a situation where your trees are too dense, and being a wetland probably doesn't help either. Any chance of thinning? Perhaps others with a similar situation can relate what their typical production is but I suspect that this woods will not produce what a well thinned upland stand would produce on high vacuum.

[Butcher]

No chance of thinning because u couldnt get the trees out and the tubing is already up. Wish they were like my roadside sugars ,they always give a 3rd to a half gallon per tap even this year ,but the sugar content is consistantly 3%plus,but is lot of work.

[gmcooper]

Butcher, Any chance you can post a few pics of your new section? I have a small section that is very wet, and too crowded that sounds similar to yours maybe. They ran really well last year and did maybe 25% this year. I have been thinning some of my woods for years with tubing up, not a lot of fun but can be done.

[Butcher]

I can see what I can do with the pic but im not good with that stuff do u have reds or silvers in ur wetland .

[gmcooper]

My wetland is all reds (100 taps). I am not tapping any silvers any more. This year the wetland is fairly dry as in only minimal standing water. Last year there was up to a foot of water at times during the season. Usually dries out in late spring and floods mostly in winter as ice forms it creates a dam.

[Butcher]

Just curious as to why u are not tapping silvers anymore,they seem to act very similar to red . Some people seem to assume they have lower sugar,when I tested some trees singley in the woods the large ones seem to start at 2.5 to 3.0 but the smaller ones are almost always under 2. Ive tested yard trees as high as 4.

[PerryW]

Keep the comments coming. I'm getting a logger into my sugarbush and I'm still deciding whether to have my red maples cut for firewood or save them. I am planning on installing vacuum on the bush for next season. I tapped 25 Red Maples (woods trees) for the past two seasons and there hardly worth the cost of the plastic (on gravity at least)

[michiganfarmer2]

what is considered high vacuum. I have an air cooled pump and I dotn want to run it any higher than 22"

[Butcher]

25+ in my opinion is high vac.what kind of yield do u get at 22" michigan farmer.

[batsofbedlam]

I averaged about 30 gallons per tap in 2 sugar bushes at 25" and 26" of vacuum.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Perry,
Save them and tap them. I never tapped red maples until I had an RO and vacuum. Never thought they were worth tapping. I now have about 1/3 of my taps on reds. Last year I produced over 1/3 gallon per tap. Are they as good as sugars? No, but they are part of what I have. There are sections of my bush that do not have enough hard maples to be worth tubing but by adding in the reds it is well worthwhile. When you have your bush thinned, favor the hard maples over the soft but don't eliminate the soft maples as firewood. One bush that is 2/3 soft maples has an average test of just above 2% and 32 gallons of sap per tap. I know my numbers are not the 1/2+ gallons per tap that some make and I think they would be better if I had all sugars but I make a lot more syrup by tapping the soft maples. My vacuum level is usually about 23 to 25 inches.
Doug

[Russell Lampron]

Perry save the reds that you can. I tap mostly reds here and with vacuum they will produce when they won't with buckets and gravity tubing. Of course if a red has to be cut to save a sugar, save the sugar.

[Dan]

Perhaps if its a small area on good rich soil and you needed to thin you could cut out the red maples and keep the hard, but I would keep some red close by for variety. On the poorer dry soil and wet soil I would favor the red maples over the hard.

[michiganfarmer2]

Last year was the first year I used vacuum, and I didint think to keep track. THis year was so bad.... I only made about a pint per tap. We only had 4 days run, and I had lots of sap leaks....I founf the bung on collection tank in the woods was open for 5 hours one day... dad found the transfer pump hose laying on the ground pumping sap on the ground one day....3 different mornings we went to the woods and found the generator that powers the vacuum had quit in the night.... I found some of the used branchline I bought was plugged with gunk, and that cost me over a hundred taps that couldnt run.

IM guestimating that I would have made about a pint and a half per tap during the 4 days we had if I hadnt had the leaks.

Im pretty confident that during a normal season I can make a quart and a half, but ill just have to wait till next year to find out. ..and during a year like 2011, I might be able to make 2 quarts

[Butcher]

Last year was my first year on vac as well,we had many problems,but was still able to make 1/3 gal per tap, this year we didnt make a quart . I think my biggest .problem is no slope but I do run a dry line which I think helps. Hard to keep sags out when u only have1/4percent slope

[gmcooper]

Butcher, From several posts back. I do not tap any silvers now because they were all bucket trees with no way to put them on tubing. Two locations that had silvers I no longer tap at all. I have one location on vacuum with a large silver maple but we do not tap it. For some reason over 4 years that tree never ran enough sap to fill a bucket once. It sets right out in the open all by itself.

[Russell Lampron]

I have one location on vacuum with a large silver maple but we do not tap it. For some reason over 4 years that tree never ran enough sap to fill a bucket once. It sets right out in the open all by itself.

Is that silver close enough to your other tubing to run a lateral to it? I have some reds in my woods that did nothing with buckets on them but with vacuum the laterals and drops all have sap in them when it is running. It might be worth giving it a try.

[mc-vi]

Our 10 000 taps sugarbush is in sugar maple - yellow birch soil type. We leave a minimum of red maple. Only red maple that are no near any sugar or silver maple. If we have a 25'' red maple that is too close of a 4'' sugar maple, we cut the red maple. The best red maple we have here produce less than half sugar of an average sugar maple. So in a long term view, it way better to keep only sugar maple. We have cut 200 red maple / sick sugar maple per year for like 5 years and it never reflected on our total production and our average per taps keep going up. Of course if there is no other maple three around, you are better leave it there and take what it gives you...

[Butcher]

So the belief is if u have 2000 densely populated trees and cut it down to 1000 that it may produce the same amount as u did with the 2000.

[Butcher]

Ive also noticed many times that I would drill a soft maple only to get sawdust , but as soon as I slip the drop on within a few seconds it starts pouring out of the tree,very strange.

[sapman]

Last year was my first year on vac as well,we had many problems,but was still able to make 1/3 gal per tap, this year we didnt make a quart . I think my biggest .problem is no slope but I do run a dry line which I think helps. Hard to keep sags out when u only have1/4percent slope

This is exactly my problem! Dry line helped for me, too. But I need to get more slope on that too since it loads up with sap sometimes also.

[argohauler]

You may have to give your main more grade and tap trees by ladder. I have to in many places in my bush that has no slope. especially across the swamp.

[sapman]

You may have to give your main more grade and tap trees by ladder. I have to in many places in my bush that has no slope. especially across the swamp.

I've considered the ladder, for a few seconds. It would make the job so arduous, I may not bother (like 800+ taps). I think when it's running well, uphill probably doesn't matter all that much (on 5/16s). I don't have science to back this up. I'm trying now to get the mains more slope, and run the 5/16 uphill more when necessary.

[Butcher]

Does anyone know of any research done on inverted lats and how it would effect production vs flat mainlines , I know I could start getting sap several hours earlier of my mainlines were not full of ice. That adds up over a couple weeks of freeze and thaw maybe dr tim has researched this.

[sapman]

I'd love to hear of research on this, too. I wonder how much production I lose for uphill lats.