Talked to the Codes Officer; this is INSANE... [Archive]

Clarkfield Farms

04-04-2012, 12:27 PM

Town of Paris, Oneida County, NY. Nice girl. Bad news.

Just in for lunch, mad as &^&^%$(*&()&^$V<M+*)%@!!!

Background: Last April, I bought the land that I grew up on. Part of it, that is. No house/residence/dwelling on it, ever; we built the barn that's on it back in 1977, all the permits approvals and inspections were proper. I tapped some trees there this year, and for a long list of reasons I need to have a sugarhouse there asap. I think/thought I'd settled on a location close to the existing barn so that I can access the elctricity from the barn. I left a message with the Town's Code Enforcer asking what the building set-back requirements were; back in 1985 they came 'round and told us that we'd built the barn, yes the one that's been there since 1977, 25' too close to the highway boundary! So, this time around, with that memory influencing me, I wanted to make sure that EVERYTHING was kosher...

I got the reurn phone call a few minutes ago. "Unless you live there, and have as your primary residence a dwelling there, under NO circumstances can you have any kind of 'accessory' building on the property, not even a barn. Literally, no building of any kind, not even an outhouse. And even if you did live there, we only allow one accessory structure and the barn that's there constitutes the one structure, and as I said it's not even there legally now. The ONLY exception is if you are the farmer, and you meet 100% of the Ag District minimum requirements, and even then we'd only allow you to have one structure and the barn constitutes that one structure. And by the way, the law has been this way since 1965 and was amended in 1985, your barn was built illegally no matter what kind of permit or approval or inspection took place, and if anything ever happens to it we will not allow you to rebuild it or anything else in its place anywhere on the property, so if I were you I wouldn't bother to insure it for fire or loss replacement, just the contents and liability. Even if you do get into an Ag District, and even if you apply for a variance, I can tell you now that there's a 0% chance of getting approval for another accessory structure. I really am sorry, and we're trying to get the laws changed, but as it stands especially since you rent out a portion of the land now and couldn't even be considered as 'the farmer/owner' of the property, you haven't got a prayer. I'd suggest that you build your sugarhouse in a different town."

She was, as I said, a very nice and pleasant person and she's probably the best person for that job because she knows the law and is a stickler for details. I was just blown away. I know of dozens of buildings on that road that have been built and never had a permit. Maybe now, I know why.

I am stunned and dazed. My own property, and I can't do a thing with it!!! As for the barn that's on there now, a side agreement that I had to sign with the seller allows them to retain exclusive use of the barn and its contents for as long as the miserab--- I mean, cats that currently inhabit it --- are alive. Problem is, since I have no rights to access the barn, I have no way to verify whether or not there are the same individual animals NOW as there were last April. Or even if there are ANY... So, as far as using the existing barn and modifying part of it to use as a sugarhouse -- that's not an option, either.

Flabberghasted.... I don't know that there are any answers. I'm just venting and maybe hopefully making someone else aware of this absolute nonsense.

The only thing that keeps coming back to mind is my original idea of building an evaporator/arch on a trailer, maybe enclosed, keeping it registered, and as long as it's on wheels and not an eyesore they can't say "boo" about it. And they can't tax it, either. And hmmm, maybe it'd give me more options: going to the sap instead of hauling sap. hmmm... gotta think that one through a little better, methinks.:rolleyes:

wow... >sigh< back to work; I hope I can concentrate on what I have to do.:confused:

Hey Dave (maple flats), I gotta talk to you about what to do about getting into an Ag District!

Anyways...
- Tim

markcasper

04-04-2012, 12:37 PM

I feel for you in the situation you are in. It is only going to get worse however, until people become alert to what the politicians, wallstreet and the bankers have done. America has turned into a fascist, dictatorial regime because the citizens are allowing it to.

Clarkfield Farms

04-04-2012, 12:49 PM

Just heading out - talked to Dave, as always excellent advice. A lot of ideas to get working on. There may be good reason to be optimistic. :)

Brokermike

04-04-2012, 12:51 PM

Exterminate the feral cats, put it in the barn, or add on to the barn

Greenwich Maple Man

04-04-2012, 12:58 PM

markcasper

04-04-2012, 01:05 PM

They can be as nice as they want but they "MIGHT" be breaking the law. Also would check and see if there "law" is legal with both county and state regs. They could have a law that is not legal but still be inforcing it. It happens everyday.

Excellent advice from Greenwich Maple man! I was too stupid to think of that, but yes, it does seem a little far-fetched and is worth contacting a lawyer if needed in my opinion.

PerryW

04-04-2012, 03:22 PM

What about contacting the State Maple Producer's Association?

Are there any county extension services?

Though, depending on the size of the evaporator, the trailer idea would work.

If you intend to file an IRS Schedule F (Farm Income), you should be considered a farm.

ALSMAPLE

04-04-2012, 05:54 PM

RustyBuckets

04-04-2012, 06:36 PM

Not possible you are not telling us everything. Easement? You the owner/taxpayer/name on the deed? Something is missing!

mathprofdk

04-04-2012, 06:36 PM

If you put up a building without a foundation,such as a prefab storage shed,I don't think you need a permit.They come in sizes larger than 2 car garages,custom made,just delivered on a truck and set in place, pretty reasonable too.

Could you get that approved on inspection if you want to sell retail, though? I live in IL, and I'm sure it varies widely across the country, but I doubt that'd pass here.

Clarkfield Farms

04-04-2012, 06:39 PM

Brokermike, she also stated that I cannot in any way change the footprint of the barn, all I can do is maintenance and repairs which, maybe foolishly and pigheaded of me, at this time I refuse to do. I'm not keeping up a cat house! :) Seriously, at this time I can't see doing it; I have no idea how much longer "natural life" means, and I am not allowed inside where most of the repairs would be needed, and the siding and roof need replacing but would expose the - creatures - and that's prohibited. It was the solitary sticking point for the sale. So I bit my tongue, swallowed my pride and signed the side agreement.

Greenwich, the deed is in both mine and my wife's name, tenants by the entirety. As for the other buildings, you and I know exactly how that'd play out - I still wouldn't get anywhere and I'd have a lot of really P-O'd neighbors. Nobody but the Town wins that one. The thing is, they've been living there right along, I've been a non-resident of the Town since I got married in 1983, they know not to bother asking permission whereas I wanted to do everything on the up-and-up. I still do.

As for all the rest of the comments, you're right. Dave may chime in here, I just got off the phone with him a few minutes ago and he'll be calling again later. Elected state representatives, Farm Bureau, Maple Producers Association, Sch. F, and a visit with my lawyer -- who just happens to be one of my best friends since we were freshmen in high school back in September, 1972. And he speicalizes in Real Property Law. :)

Perry, I probably wouldn't outgrow a 2X6 for a very long time. It MIGHT be a good Plan B to go the "mobile maple" route.

ALSMAPLE, idk... she wasn't just saying not even an out house, she was serious. I think I'll go the legal way and at the same time look into your idea. And go Plan B if they want to play games.

Thanks, guys. I'll be back later.

- Tim

maple flats

04-04-2012, 07:01 PM

Unfortunately those structures do need permits in some jurisdictions, except for the exemption of agriculture. IN NYS there are laws and exemptions to protect agriculture.
Dave

Clarkfield Farms

04-04-2012, 07:26 PM

Not possible you are not telling us everything. Easement? You the owner/taxpayer/name on the deed? Something is missing!

Everything, yes. There are no easements of any kind. The side agreement was not filed and is not known to anyone other than this thread, now. We (wife and I) have paid the seller 2011 pro-rata taxes at closing in April 2011, we paid the school taxes in September 2011 and the Town/County/Highway in January 2012. That's everything.

68bird

04-04-2012, 09:34 PM

I would try evrything possible to be decent. Thenif that doesn't work, I would threaten a pig farm.Do like the governmet does look for a compromise! No need to spend money on a lawyer! Bacon GOOD!

Clarkfield Farms

04-04-2012, 09:42 PM

Greenwich Maple Man

04-04-2012, 10:59 PM

Well, the only thing he's ever charged us for was the closing on the land, not even the closing on our house or ANYTHING else, so I'm not too worried about his fees lol! :) Besides, he wouldn't want us to go looking for a cheaper attorney. ;)

I don't know if this would help but I would also contact you countys Farm Service agency. I would also ask for a copie of the law the she is referring to. I would guess "that it won't be available". This whole thing is so wrong I truly believe she is giving you grief for some other reason. Remember you are conducting under ag. there should be no restrictions for you under that. Is the" Right to Farm Law" in your county? I would also demand a lower tax rate if the land is what they say, it is basicaly worthless. No offence. Let us know what happens.

RileySugarbush

04-05-2012, 12:10 AM

Greenwich Maple Man

04-05-2012, 07:45 AM

http://www.usedmovingvans.com/index.cfm?page=3&RowLow=36&eqID=366&sorter=2 (http://www.usedmovingvans.com/index.cfm?page=3&RowLow=36&eqID=366&sorter=2)

Cheaper than a building! And it will look really cool with a cupola and stack!

Just don't let any cats in.

No offence Riley , but atleast for me this would be band aiding the problem. Just reading this thread makes me angry. This is so wrong of this town.

lmathews

04-05-2012, 07:50 AM

Add a dog to the barn,cats should thin out pretty quick.
Also about 8-10 years ago senator Schumer put something into effect in regards to maple sugar shacks for all of NY state.You should try and find that as well.It was something exempting shacks from permits,taxes for 15 years and some other stuff I can't remember.As for a side agreement if it is not binding why worry about the cats.
Good luck

Greenwich Maple Man

04-05-2012, 07:55 AM

Dave Y

04-05-2012, 08:53 AM

heus

04-05-2012, 12:45 PM

Get some cage traps and get the cats out of the barn. Dont transfer them as they will come back. As far as the town law goes this is on reason I would never move to NY state. I think the country is beautiful. but to many screwy laws that have been influenced by city people.
I agree. I feel for the poor northern and western parts of NY that have to abide by the wishes of NYC. Should be 2 separate states!

Clarkfield Farms

04-05-2012, 05:38 PM

lol... Well, first - the cats are, for all intents and purposes, more or less captive. None come out. The barn is closed, and is off-limits to me. I don't like the situation but I agreed to it and it's not the critters' fault that things are the way they are. The side agreement was indeed signed by me and is, therefore, perfectly binding and encforceable; it's an honor thing. Second, I've always said that the only 3 things that I cannot abide about NY are the only 3 things that we can't do anything about: The weather, the taxes, and the politics. Third, hmmm... I smell something absolutely delectable wafting from the kitchen and I feel like I'm in one of those old cartoons where the visible aroma catches the guy by the nostrils and carries him to the feast. can't... think. can't... see. must... EAT! be back later.

Bucket Head

04-05-2012, 10:29 PM

RileySugarbush

04-05-2012, 11:35 PM

No offence Riley , but atleast for me this would be band aiding the problem. Just reading this thread makes me angry. This is so wrong of this town.

None taken!

But wouldn't it serve them right to have that van parked there in defiance? Maybe with a nice statement painted on the side?

Clarkfield Farms

04-06-2012, 12:19 AM

If there was ever a time for a second opinion, now would be the time. It almost sounds like they have intermingled the rules that pertain to non-agriculture use, residential-type sheds and garages on small parcels with agricultural structures on large tracts. The town next to you, where I am, requires 10 acres, in an Ag/Residential-zoned area, for an agricultural endeavor, without any trouble. A non ag-zoned, less than ten acres endeavor requires variences. Thats when it becomes a game of chance. I am almost certain you are zoned Agricultural there. How many acres is the piece? This is where the other opinions come in. Did you talk to your friend who is a lawyer? The local Farm Bureau president is in Chadwicks. As posted earlier, there are different rules for Ag usages, and many, many codes people are in the dark on them. I could share some stories on that.....

I'm no expert on Town of Paris land use rules, but the whole thing sounds like somebody is confused and/or unaware of the ag-use rules. Have you learned anything since yesterdays postings?

And if by some chance all of these rules are correct, as mentioned earlier, I'll come up and help you evict the cats and I'll bring the Sawz-All and we'll have smoke stack and steam stack holes in the existing barn's roof in short order. If anyone asks what the holes are for, tell'em you just bought his and hers telescopes for looking at the stars.

Let us know what you find out from the others when you speak to them.

Steve

Steve, I thought I'd have a chance today but haven't had time. During supper my sister (one of five, also have 4 brothers) called to say our Dad (he's 94) wasn't feeling at all well, which is fairly unusual for him. I checked on him and was sure it was dehydration, took him to the ER at St. Elizabeth's and they took a chest x-ray and drew blood, they agreed it's probably dehydration but want to be certain. I left there, just got home, he and my sister are still there. I'm hoping to make calls tomorrow after work but it's Good Friday and a lot of places are closed or taking the day off. hmmm, actually it IS tomorrow already.

The property is zoned RR (Rural-Residential) and is about 25 acres. The barn, as you and your Dad have seen, needs a lot of work. And it's worse on the inside. But I'll eventually get it done.

maple flats

04-06-2012, 09:51 AM

YeastPimp, I hope you dad is better. I have told you this Tim, but I'll state it here for others.
I started the process to build a sugarhouse where it now sets in June of 2003 by going to get a building permit. It was refused on the grounds that I could not build an accessory structure on land that has no primary structure (no home, no other structure allowed). I was told I had to go before the zoning board of appeals. I asked when they meet and was told "last night", next on in August, because there was none in July because of the 4th. Come Aug I had to go before the appeals board and was then told I must appear before the Common council with a public hearing for the "Public" to comment. It was too late to schedule this for the next meeting because the adgenda had been set and the required public announcements were not possible because of time needed. I was scheduled to be at the meeting in 3 weeks. At that meeting I had some neighbors attend, some questions were asked, but in the end no objections were made, and the matter was sent to the board of appeals for formal approval. Again, too lat to catch Sept's meeting, moved to Oct. At that meeting they did not make an approval, but tabled it for Nov. At the Nov. meeting I was granted approval and the next day I went back to get my permit. They had not gotten the approval yet. I checked every day or 2 until on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving I finally got my permit. I called my excavator guy and he dug the trench and pit for the evaporator foundation the next day, along with removal of several stumps so I could move the driveway over and make a much better design for the driveway.. I started building 2 days later, but a wet fall started that weekend and I had to battle flooded trenches and needed to pump often just to place footings for the poles to build a pole structure as the sugarhouse. I struggled to make this happen, working under adverse conditions , working until late evening, under lights, almost daily until I was ready to place the homemade trusses. I rounded up family and friends and we had a "raising" on Dec. 31. With the trusses up I placed the purlins and got the steel and my oldest son helped me put the steel on the following Sat.
Now I struggled to get the footing in for the evaporator support and with the season quickly approaching I switched gears to have something ready. I put in large chunks of broken sidewalk as footers and jack posts and made a 12x16 floating platform inside the 16x24 sugarhouse, with pallets used to fill the rest of the area to hold firewood and other bulky items. During the season I had to go uder often to re level the evaporator because of shifting sand under the footer slabs. This was a pain but my addiction wouldn't let me quit. The next year I was too short on funds to do it right so I put in a complete wooden floor (I used my own timber and my sawmill to cut the lumber). The codes enforcement officer kept wanting me to finish with my structure as had been approved, meaning a concrete footer under the evaporator and a finished concrete floor. He kept hounding me but did keep issuing extensions. A year later I got the footer and laid up blocks to support the evaporator. I designed to footers (2) to accomodate any size evaporator from the 2x6 I had up to a 3x10. After laying the blocks up to the right height for the 2 evaporator supports I came down with the Shingles, which was mis-diagnosed the first time I went to the doctors. 5 days later I got so bad I went to the ER on Thanksgiving morning. The doctor had me remove my shirt and she immediately said, "you have shingles". Treatment started but being diagnosed wrong the first time, it got much worse and I was totally out of commission until about Jan 10, a loss of production on the sugarhouse until I decided I had to re install the wooden floor. I then finally got enough cash to pour the cap to support the evaporator and poured one side of the floor, the rest I had to leave wood for another. The following summer I finally finished to concrete floor.
During this time I had learned a few things about the ag laws and building permits. I did go get my certificate of occupancy and after it was isseud I told the codes guy that I had learned no permits ere ever required according to state law. He said that was correct but he just likes to make sure such structures were build safely, HOGWASH, THEY JUST WANT TO KEEP AN EYE ON THINGS TO RAISE TAXES, PERIOD. My taxes then jumped as my assessment increased by $28,000, even though I had spent only $6,400 to build it.
Things like this are totally. Our public "servants" have made us slaves to their misguided control and abuse of power. Abusses like the codes guy subjected me to that first year wasted 6 months of good weather time for me and in the final analysis I believe many of the building issues would not have happened if he had said in the beginnig "you do not need a permit to build an AG structure of any type."
Had I known then what I learned during that time I would never have gone to get a permit. I suggest anyone who is told otherwise contact their assemblyman and if in NYS, also Bill Magee, the chairman of the AG committee. I spoke to Bill Magee after this all happened and he indicated that I should have contacted him in the beginning, unfortunately I did not know at that time about AG exemptions from building code laws in New York State.

Clarkfield Farms

04-06-2012, 06:52 PM

Thank you, Dave. I was hoping you'd do just this, there's NO WAY I could've gotten it all straight. And also for your wishes for my father; thank you. He finally got home at about 3:00 this morning, but then had only 2 hours sleep because he had an appointment with the eye doctor.

Anyways, work finished at about 2:30 today and I was not far from my dad's house so I thought I'd run over to see how he was doing. I was just about to get off at the Sauquoit exit on Rte. 8 when I got a call from my sister asking where I was, how soon could I get there, he was on the floor and had been there for at least an hour while she was out, too weak to get up. Long long story very short, after 3 hours helping him it was clear he was still suffering from dehydration, maybe exhaustion. It's been a terribly busy few weeks for him. So I finally convinced him to go beck to the ER, the Dr. returned my call and said it'd be a good idea to go so that helped. Anyways, he's otherwise fine, no pain. But they've admitted him, I'm relieved, this way they can stabilize him and he won't have the stress of back-and-forth anymore.

Just in for a fast slice of pizza, cleaning up and heading back to the hospital to stay with him. So, still no progress on following up on the good advice given.

Again, Dave - thanks. No way, no way would I have been able to get all that. And I know I'd have a lot of the same, if you hadn't steered me right. I agree, Bill Magee used to be our assemblyman until they gerrymandered our district, and he is the best help I've ever had to some overwhelming problems brought on by big government. You wouldn't believe some of them... And like you, Dave, never once was it my fault, never once a problem that should've been.

Maybe everybody can call Gina and tell her that they're going to build a sugarhouse in the Town of Paris! NOOOO!!!!! She'd make my life miserable if she found out I said that...

Michael Greer

04-06-2012, 09:31 PM

We've got a similar, though less extreme situation here. Our former code guy was great, a former builder who you could ask for advice, code, zoning or construction...he knew enough of all. If you came in with a project...maybe something odd...he'd say "Well, let's see what we can figure out".
The new guy is a bit of a case. First thing out of his mouth is "NO". and then he tries to figure out why not. In these cases, you have to read the code...learn the code, and what exactly the code says about your particular case. They like to pretend that it's all cut and dried, and there's no room for discussion, but quite a lot of it is up to interpretation, and the learned opinion of the code official. Find other advice.

PerryW

04-06-2012, 11:48 PM

You guys got it rough. I just built a spec house built almost entirely from my own lumber (from my sawmill) and never had to have a single building inspection. Only a state septic design & inspection. Live Free of Die.

Bucket Head

04-07-2012, 12:11 AM

Yeastpimp,
I'm sorry to hear of the trouble your father is having. I hope he is doing better. Hospitals are no fun- for either the patient or the visitors.

PerryW,
You got it too easy! Lol. Remember, N.Y. is the home of over regulation and taxation. Its a nice place to visit, but you don't want to stay too long.

PerryW

04-07-2012, 08:28 AM

PerryW,
You got it too easy! Lol. Remember, N.Y. is the home of over regulation and taxation. Its a nice place to visit, but you don't want to stay too long.

Yes, we are planning a summer vacation in upstate NY and thousand islans/Lake Ontario. Last year we spent 3 weeks driving around Lake Superior. Planning on doing some camping, canoeing and bringing the Mt. Bikes. (sorry for the hijack)

Clarkfield Farms

04-07-2012, 08:49 AM

Ain't no such thing as a hijack in any of my threads, PerryW; take a look, I even hijacked it myself! :)

It is beautiful, and Steve's right, you don't want to stay too long or you'll go broke along with us. I think they're even talking about a visitor's tax that residents have to pay. Reverse tourism or something like that? ok, just kidding but now that it's been spoken/written some idiot in Albany will probably pick it up and run with it. :mad:

Well, my Dad's doing a lot better. More fluids helped. Also, I took the doctor aside and just told him that the antibiotics that his primary Dr. gave him the last time he got in a bad way are the same ones as this time, and I know with myself that antibiotics - as rarely as I've ever needed them - have very odd and detrimental effects on me. And since my Dad and I are related, well -- ???? Don'tcha think MAYBE that's part of it??? So, the took him off that AB and his temp came down from 102.something to 98.7 and has been steady. He was able to be a LOT more alert, strength was coming back by around 11:30 when they finally got him a room, and he's now doing almost 100% so we're hopeful that he can go home today. On Tuesday he has an MOHS procedure scheduled at Roswell Park in Buffalo. After that, we're hoping for a long smooth stretch of good, peaceful living for him. 94 may sound old, but if you know him you know that it seems like he's got a good 10 or 15 years left in him. Me, I'm hoping for another 26 good years for him. :):)

Dave, after I get back from the hospital I'll be emailing Magee's office. Another thing about Bill is that he's very picky about his staff. They're either competent and dedicated to serving the public or they don't work for him. I hope he never retires.

maple flats

04-07-2012, 08:51 AM

Just reading the code will not suffice because the local code will not specify the state laws that exempt or otherwise override the local codes, and there are literally hundreds if not thousands of overrides. Our laws are overwhelmed with laws that should have been sunsetted a hundred or even 2 hundred years ago. The world started with one set of laws called the 10 commandments, Then the bible really just expanded the interpretation of those 10.
Now if you go into any lawyer's office, look at the book cases of what man has done to the "law", some even have a whole extra room FULL of laws and court cases that seem to change or interpret the law in a new way.
Now add to the mix people in authority who only slightly familiarize themselves with the sections of the law that govern their sliver of authority, it is no wonder OUR government is totally screwed up.
To the point in this case, or every other matter where authorities don't do what we know is right, we must jump thru every hoop we need to until the matter is corrected, wasting our time but hopefully, in the end educating the authority in question. My biggest concern is that they have not really been educated and will do the same injustice to the next citizen who tries to do the same thing.
Back to my case, I'll bet someone requesting a permit in my city to build any ag. building will get the same treatment I got and will be required to jump thru the same hoops, but this time maybe the citizen just gives up, THAT IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THIS ISSUE.

Thompson's Tree Farm

04-07-2012, 12:41 PM

Yes, we are planning a summer vacation in upstate NY and thousand islans/Lake Ontario. Last year we spent 3 weeks driving around Lake Superior. Planning on doing some camping, canoeing and bringing the Mt. Bikes. (sorry for the hijack)

So stop in and see us.

Clarkfield Farms

04-10-2012, 07:37 PM

We should be moving my Dad from the hospital to one of the local nursing homes for a short physical/occupational therapy stay. What a whirlwind... bottom line is, the idiot Dr. had him on an antibiotic for the third time each time it's done this to him. Doing perfectly fine (we were walking together last Monday!!!!), went on augmentin for a winter-cracked thumb which was NOT infected... in the hospital. Delirium, dehydration, acute kidney failure, complete loss of the use of his limbs. He's been sleeping 22 hours a day.

Anyways... I have yet to get on the issue from a legal/political standpoint. I hope that once my Dad is situated tomorrow, I can get it done. Been with him most of the time since late Friday.

So I have another thought -- IF, and I do mean IF, this doesn't go my way, and IF (wow maybe I shouldn't even be thinking about this with so many if's!) the side agreement is extinguished, I'm wondering about using the SECOND floor/old hay mow for the evaporator? The floor is quite beefy but I could build it up even more, a cupola in the roof, a fireproof hearth/floor under the arch; I just don't know about ash removal. Or a lot of other things, I'm sure. I only have a few minutes before heading back out to the hospital and this idea came to me and I haven't got the time to think it through so I'm putting it out there to get holes shot in it or whatever. Again, I'm clutching at straws here, wondering about "never allow you to build anything there, ever" words that kind of got stuck in my head... Maybe when things get a little more clear I'll wonder why I even thought about the second floor idea. I don't know.

lakeview maple

04-10-2012, 08:08 PM

Yeastpimp, Ive have contacted our building code enforcement guy 3 times on different buildings that I wanted to put up for various agricultural reasons,he stated he has no jurisdiction over farm buildings. I also live in the Adirondacks under the thumb of the good ole APA, none of the county or APA officials have any jurisdiction on any farm buildings.The right to farm law is ineffect for NY,you really need to contact your local Gov officials and Im almost positive they will tell you the same thing.Who ever is misguiding you is doing just that misguiding you! I hope this helps ,Al

Bucket Head

04-10-2012, 09:55 PM

Yeastpimp,
Hopefully your father is on the right road now. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Doctors out there that really should have chosen another carreer path. They are simply NOT good at what they do. Several years ago my father had major surgery to remove a cancerous tumor. Come to find out, tests after the surgery showed it was still there! Nobody has any idea on what the first surgeon thought he was doing. Yeah, its still unbelievable. All the worry, pain, suffering and recuperating- times two for my father. I know there are idiots in every profession out there, but when some of those idiots are allowed to make decisions that affect qaulity of life, or life or death.........

Alright, back to syruping. Lets get the whole truth and nothing but the truth on the codes thing first. With all the weight, possible wetness, ashes and hot embers, etc., I would'nt reccomend a second floor operation. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying a ground floor operation would be less worrysome, and less work. Actually, I would reccomend the earlier suggestion of a mobile maple trailer/sugarhouse-type thing over a second floor operation. And I'm sure codes would have a problem with the elevator, although they might permit an escalator??

Like Lakeveiw said, Ag rules are completly different. Completly different from what most codes people are familiar with. Here, on an Ag parcel with agricultural use, all Codes can do is check to see if you got the permit for a building, the revenue-generating portion, and possibly the set-back dimensions from the edge of the property. (Your current building is grandfathered in because of the '77 permit- just like all the other barns in the neighborhood that are near the road) Thats all they have control over. The usual rules, inspections, (you can use rough cut lumber), etc., don't apply and can't be enforced by codes. Again, many Ag rules, if not all of them, supercede the ridiculous, residential-like rules that some of these towns come up with.

Get the facts on the Ag use regulations first. You'll probably be releived to hear them.

lakeview maple

04-10-2012, 10:35 PM

Amen to that Buckethead,Yeastpimp see if you can get ahold of your local Ag codes if not ,check with your local cooperative extension , they might be able to help as well.

Clarkfield Farms

04-11-2012, 06:53 AM

Thanks, guys.

Steve, it's good to see that your Dad looks none the worse for the nightmares that he went through - I'd never even suspect that he'd been through it. Looks like a million bucks.

Also, one question, I'm not sure what you mean by "revenue-generating portion." The parts that generate revenue to me, or to the town via taxation?

Lakeview, I'm all too familiar with the gestapo - I mean APA - and they're rules and enforcers. OK, if THEY leave you alone, I'm going forward with the mindset that this is a slam-dunk. Thanks. That helped put it in terms I can get my head around. :)

Yeah, I thought more about the second-story maple idea while I was driving last night. Fortunately, it didn't survive a second thought.

Again, thank you.

- Tim

Bucket Head

04-11-2012, 11:49 PM

Yeastpimp,

He's doing good now. I should say that he was'nt in as bad of shape as some cancer patients to start with, fortunately. The ordeal of going through surgury twice due to carelessness was more traumatic. As for him looking good these days, I like to think it's because of the rigorous conditioning program that I make him participate in each year- its called the gathering sap with buckets program and starts around March 1st each year. I'd reccomend it to anyone.

The revenue generating part I spoke of was the building permit fee. My town requires that for an Ag building, but thats all they can do. Basically, anything thats town government-related requires you to open your wallet first. I'm sure your town is the same way. You pay at least twice for eveything. Everyone pays for their town government to run with their taxes, and then you pay again when they have to "provide" something to you. Yes, its a great system.

When you get time, get a hold of your friend who's the attorney, and/or Bill Magee, and/or the Farm bureau, etc., etc., and see what they say. I think everyone on this site is anxious to hear what they have to say in reponse to what you've heard from the codes department.

maple flats

04-12-2012, 07:51 AM

Tim, how's you dad now? I hope he is strong enough to survive the doctors he has to deal with. It seems like any intelligent person (Dr or any other profession, even maple producer) would see cause and effect. You can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different result.
Back to your Codes person. They are truly mis-informed. When things calm down, follow the suggestions we have all given, step by step. You will come out smiling.
On a side note, many including myself have set up an evaporator on a wooden floor, but it is far from ideal. I ran a 2x6 on a wooden floor 3 seasons without incident, but I sure felt better when I got the concrete in. Mine wasn't on a second floor but what difference is it if on wood, at any floor. The main thing would be pumping the sap, and that should not be an issue. If you do chose to go that route, I'll tell you how I protected the floor from heat and sparks. If this route is chosen, it should be temporary rather than the final plan. It would cost less and take less time to set up, but when you can, proceed with a ground floor, preferably on concrete set up, and build the sugarhouse as it should be.

Clarkfield Farms

04-12-2012, 08:56 AM

Thanks, Dave. Hey, I just posted on the thread you just started about the health benefits of REAL maple products. Remember how I was last year? lol!

As for my Dad, at 94 it's a lot harder to recover than at 93. He's OK, but just OK for now. This is the 3rd day in a row that he's supposed to be discharged to one of the local nursing homes for short-term rehab so that he can go home. But because they took him off IV fluids, and he isn't drinking NEARLY as much as he should be or needs to be, he got dehydrated again and his sodium levels are too low. They're trying to balance between getting him out of the hospital asap to minimize the risk of infection with making sure he'll be strong enough to do the PT/OT and eat/drink enough to get better and not land back in the hospital. If you read about a certain local doctor going missing, well....

I have a lot to do before I can get to the codes issue, but I will get to it. I'm hopeful that what now looks overwhelming will be a more pleasant reality once I rediscover the power of elected officials' influence. Even after I have a sugarhouse built, I'm still imagining about building a mobile evaporator. Just this morning at about 6AM I talked with a friend that makes trailers, he called to ask about my Dad, we got around to talking about maple syrup (yes he wants to buy some :) ) and I mentioned my ideas. He said that he knows of at least 3 that are used but in perfect condition, frame/axles/tires and wiring only, quite cheap. Just not sure if they're still available but they'd serve quite well for what I'm talking about. I only started thinking about having something mobile because of our family property up in Forestport; about 300 acres with gazillions of red maples, a smattering of sugar maples, and a lot of yellow birch. But no way would I be able to build a sugarhouse there, not likely even to have year-round tubing. The season is a lot later there, so once done down here -- well, a guy can dream, can't he?

Yeah, way too many "if's" about the barn anyways. The %&%$%^$ cats may outlive all of us anyhow. :(

Clarkfield Farms

04-12-2012, 09:03 AM

PS - Dave, I went up to my sugarbush (if I can call it that, lol) yesterday evening in between times at the hospital; my sister said the guy that I rent to lower field to was up there to plow. I wanted to see if he had taken advantage of the little bit more land I opened up for him by clearing back some of the hedgerows (he did), and I took a quick look at some of the maples that I had tapped... still running strong. Oh well, it still makes me sick to think of what I consider "waste," but I have to think about how they'll hopefully run like this in the future and make the best of it.

OK NOW I've got to go!

Revi

04-12-2012, 01:11 PM

If I was you I'd set up a collection tank and maybe vacuum in a trailer. Truck the sap to some place where you can boil it.

Clarkfield Farms

05-08-2012, 03:59 PM

***UPDATE***

I haven't enough time to type all that's been going on and I'm frazzled; like the rest of you, I'm sure, with planting and everything else now that spring is here. I love living around here, we get at least 7 springs each year and so far this year we've had 17. We might get as many as 20! OK, kidding aside...

At the (as always) good advice from Dave Klish/maple flats, I emailed Assemblyman Bill Magee. Except that 2 weeks went by without a reply, so on Saturday I called the office to leave a message... Bill answered. A politician, answering his own phone, on a Saturday morning. But if you know him or have needed him before, you know that that's just the way Bill is. He assured me that he had indeed read my email and had forwarded the information along to the appropriate people and was surprised that no one had contacted me yet, and before we ended our conversation he said to expect a call on my cell phone no later than Tuesday (today). At 2:30 this afternoon, Bob Somers PhD., manager of the Agricultural Protection Unit, NYS Dept of Ag & Markets, called me to tell me that they will file on my behalf a request to review the laws of The Town of Paris to determine if they are excessively restrictive regarding farm structures, that this is the standard first step in defending small farm startups. I'm enclosing the body of the email that he followed up with, and if you look, HEY! HE'S ONE OF US!!! How cool is THAT?

There was a lot of other stuff that we talked about, no time for including that now. Anyways, here's the body of the email, cut & pasted:

"Timothy, as mentioned over the phone, your property is located within Oneida County Agricultural District No. 6 (see attached image). You would be considered a start-up farm and protected under the AML as a farm operation. I have included two questionnaires for you to complete. Please submit the questionnaires back to me via us mail, e-mail or fax. I will send a letter to the town alerting them of your request to conduct a review of their local zoning code as applied to your start-up farm. I have also attached a copy of a determination by the Dept. of State, Codes Division, that states that a sugar shack is an agricultural building as long as non-family members are not employed to process the sap. I am also in the process of building a sugarhouse on our property in Washington County. I found a Vermont Extension Service publication that includes two sets of plans for the construction of a sugarhouse. I am building the smaller one as attached. I have been working on it off and on and hope to put the tin on the roof and siding up this summer. Send me your address and I will send you a copy of the booklet. You may be interested in the larger building plans. If you have any questions, please contact me at any time. Bob"

He also sent attachments for applications for new farm startup, the appropriate questionnaires, and the map showing that the land is in Ag District #6, all necessary to get the ball rolling. HOWEVER, one caveat: After requesting from the town their copy of zoning/property laws, the town can take their sweet time replying/complying. And then they can sue if they feel that the State is being unreasonable, but the town has to prove that the reason they're denying me permission to build is because it is a clear danger to the public and/or public health. Although this is extremely unlikely and is not expected to happen, even without a lawsuit it may take all summer to get all the obstacles out of the way. GREAT! I figure it's now a race between the cats and the town as to which gives up the ghost first. :) I haven't got a favorite, I want 'em all out of the way.

OK, Tim out.

Clarkfield Farms

05-08-2012, 04:03 PM

P.S. - - He also said that ANY lands, mine or not, contiguous or not, in the same town or county or not, that I rent for the purpose of farming, will be covered without any conditions. That also means any lands that I rent or lease for tapping maples. And, those lands get the same protection as mine! HAH! oh, GIIIINA!!!! Let's get ready to rumble!!!!! OK, no gloating. Besides, it isn't over yet.

maple flats

05-08-2012, 06:20 PM

Tim, I was wondering what Bill had to say and how he was helping you. I'm glad things are heading in the right direction. Unfortunately those who "serve" do as little as possible to actually serve, Bill Magee is a huge exception. He grew up on a farm and then became an auctioneer, hawking all categories but maintaining a strong leaning towards anything farm related. Bill has been in the Assembly for as long as I can remember and serves as the Chairman of the House Agriculture committee. Now the best part, Bill still does as well as or better than when he was new in office. He follows through and as you commented, he even answers his own phone sometimes. He is a real people person and has the health of AG in NYS as his major focus.
I went thru much of what you are now and it does take far too long. After being denied, then told I had to petition the zoning board of appeals, then I had to wait for a public hearing. A few more hoops to jump through and after 5 months I got my approval. It took me 3 years to complete the total construction and get my Certificate of Occupancy. By that time I had learned that Ag buildings do not need any of that and commented to my Codes Officer about that. He agreed, Ag does not need a permit. It should be a punishable crime for these "Civil Servants" to cause such extra work for the Public to endure (in this case , me, the farmer.) I will bet that the next farmer who applied for a permit to build, without knowing he did not need one, got the same type of treatment all over again. That is just wrong!!!!!
Again, I'm glad this is moving forward for you. May they conceed and not drag their heels to make construction timing very difficult. In my case I applies in June and finally got the go ahead 2 days before Thanksgiving. That meant I had to work in wet/snowy weather rather than in shirtsleeves with plenty of time.
Dave

NYmaplehelp

05-08-2012, 06:45 PM

Tim,
If you need any further assistance, the NYS Maple Producers Assn is ready to help. Jut give our office a call at 315-877-5795, or check out nysmaple.com for contact us info.
Helen Thomas
Executive director

Clarkfield Farms

05-09-2012, 09:24 PM

Thank you, Helen. I will. I greatly appreciate this.

Also - today, at about 11:30AM, my cell phone rang. I had no idea who it could be, didn't recognize the #; a young lady asked if she was speaking to Mr. Clark, I replied that yes, she was, she identified herself as Laura from Assemblyman Magee's office. She asked if anyone had contacted me, I replied that Bob Somers had called yesterday afternoon. She was relieved to hear that since she had been specific about a deadline. I was amazed. She went over a lot of things related to these agricultural protection programs, and I was even more amazed at how MUCH protection we need from government regulations!!!! I know that I used the word, "insane," in the title of this thread with respect to the ordeal that I went through with the codes officer, but HOLY COW... we need to support organizations like NYSMPA and people like Bill Magee, no matter your political affiliation, no matter your location. We have to fight these fights on the local level but there's no way we can fight them alone and win. When you support guys like Bill you're doing it across the entire state, nevermind that he's not "YOUR" assemblyman, he chairs the NYS Ag Committee. Laura concluded the conversation by saying that Bob is right in saying that it could take awhile, maybe even all summer, but she has my file, OPEN, on her desk, with a post-it note on the front outside cover indicating that "This file is not to be closed or considered closed until Mr. Clark calls to tell us that he is SELLING maple syrup," and the file is to remain on her desk until that time.

I do believe I'm feeling a lot better about all of this... thanks, to all of you here, especially Dave, and Helen (I will be joining NYSMPA asap). And thanks to Bill Magee and Bob Somers, as well. And I suppose I should also thank Gina for getting all of this started in the first place. hmmmm...

And now a request for a little more help: In the questionnaire, I need to include a name for the farm... I think I'll start another thread in an appropriate forum here to get input on some names I've come up with. We'll see.

Thanks, again!

- Tim

Clarkfield Farms

05-09-2012, 09:30 PM

Another P.S. - On another happy note, my Dad came home from rehab at the nursing home, it'll be 2 weeks ago this coming Friday. Healthy, happy, feeling good, just can't drive yet because the eyesight hasn't completely returned to normal. First thing we did was take a drive up the hill... he loved it.

Bucket Head

05-10-2012, 12:16 AM

Hi Tim,
I'm happy to hear your father is doing better! I'm also happy to hear you got the ball rolling on the sugar house regulations. Hopefully they won't drag their behinds, but time means nothing to local governments. Maybe Bill will get a fire started under them. However long it takes, you'll probably hear good news though. Like I said before, Ag. usage rules usually trump the silly residential-type rules that these people lay awake at night dreaming up. Agriculture is this states largest industry, so there are regulations in place that protect it. The absurd Adirondack Park Agency recently had their behinds handed to them when they tried to infringe on a farming operation. So if the "right to farm" holds up in the mighty Adirondacks, it should hold up in the tiny Town of Paris also. -Steve

Clarkfield Farms

05-10-2012, 04:04 PM

"Tiny Town Farms..." has a ring to it! lol! Thanks, Steve. Even if it does take all summer, I still plan on having everything bought/cut/dug/ready in whatever way possible so that when I DO get the green light, it's full speed ahead.

maple flats

05-10-2012, 05:09 PM

Tim, almost everyone needs "protection from government". What a sad thing to realize, that we all must be protected from OUR own government, not just farmers. It just turns out that you are experiencing an AG issue at this time. They (all government) just keeps passing more and more laws, with a large majority unnecessary. Then every time a law is challenged in court and prevailed over the new law of the land is based on that court decision and interpretations go back and forth all over the place.
I think we would be far better off if a sweeping out of outdated laws became the main thrust of the governing bodies, but we'll never see that AND that's a whole new topic.

rookie

06-27-2012, 01:49 PM

I know this thread is a little old but please keep us updated on how things go. As for the cats they must be getting outside somehow or else they're all dead. How else would they stay hydrated? And that barn must just have the most pleseant scent! all that cat scat and urine, nothing quite smells like cat waste.... :o< thats my vommit face

bobsklarz

06-27-2012, 10:01 PM

Government SUCKS!!! This law needs to be rescinded!! Build the bldg. THEN get a lawyer and fight them. Get them to pay lawyer fees when you win. There's gotta be some people w/ backbone in that town that would back ya. Thank God I live in Ohio. Haven't got a permit for ANY outbldg I've built yet. They can't see my place from the road and by the time it's built......too late.

Bucket Head

06-27-2012, 11:26 PM

Yeah, government is'nt there to 'help' in any way, thats for sure. Unfortunately, Yeast Pimp's future sugarhouse site can be seen from the road. His property is basically the side and top of a mountain, so most of it can be seen from the road. I know many folks build out of sight and thats fine if you can get away with it. But when you can't hide you have no choice but to go by the 'rules'. Hopefully he will have good news to report when he updates this post.

rookie

06-28-2012, 10:22 AM

maybe he could put pine boughs all around it and make it "blend in" and "look like a tree" like those monsterous cell phone towers. :D we all know that has everyone fooled

maple flats

06-29-2012, 06:16 AM

All joking aside, I think he is on the best route. He has the Chairman of the State's Assembly Agriculture Committee helping to remedy the injustice. I just hope this is solved in time to do the necessary work.
When I built my sugarhouse I had similar hoops to jump through. As I mentioned early in this thread, after I finished the sugarhouse and went to get my "Certificate Of Occupancy", having just recently learning that I had not needed a permit in the first place, I commented to the codes officer about it and he admitted that I had required no permit to build. That really ruffled my feathers.

rookie

06-29-2012, 01:15 PM

i can beleive it. I think they should have returned any permit fees etc. but knowing goverment, once they have thier paws on it, its hard to get back.

Clarkfield Farms

06-29-2012, 11:08 PM

Hey, guys, been awhile. Dave, I got your PM, just gave a brief reply referring to this reply on this thread. As for the cats, the situation is complicated. The seller (who lives across the street) made it part of the transaction that his daughter would be able to retain "rights" to the barn to keep the cats in it "for their natural life. I have to ask, what's natural about a cat's life?!?!?!?! OK, so I don't like "those" cats... but they always have access to food and water, she brings it over to them every day. I can't get into all the details. It just is the way it is and I live with it.

Still a few issues with my Dad, he went to Roswell Park in Buffalo for treatment of some advanced skin cancer. That's a long story, but he's seeing a Dr. in Fulton affiliated with Roswell so it's looking better for him. Taking care of my Dad, along with spring planting etc and working, well it's been busy. I also have a possible issue with the Codes Officer that I'm talking only to my lawyer about, it may be something it may not be but it's extremely frustrating. ALSO....

Around the jobsites (been working for a homebuilder/remodeler the past couple of years, thank God that I'm on the books and have worker's comp!), I got the nickname "Fluffy." Not because I'm a wuss, but in the same way that a tall guy gets nicknamed "Shorty" or a fat guy gets called "Slim." I was raised that if you've got anything left in you at the end of the day, you cheated your employer. The guy that gave me that nickname is a terrific guy, he's probably the only one who could've given it without getting himself a punch. It's all in good humor. One day when it was over 90 out, and everyone else had stopped working by 3PM, I kept working til almost 6 and was way past "OK." I was a mess. He asked me if I was OK, I couldn't answer, one of the other guys asked me the same thing, and this great guy said, in a "The Exorcist" voice, "There is no Tim, ONLY FLUFFY!" We lauhged til we cried, the name has stuck ever since.

Anyways, yesterday we were doing a roofing job. At about 11AM, while running shingle bundles up the ladders and onto the roof, I was heading back down when the ladders & pick gave way. I fell from the roof to the ground, not exactly flat on my back; although I was in a horizontal plane, I didn't land evenly. My left elbow hit the concrete at the same time that the left top/side of my head hit an 8" high ornamental cast iron dome at the concrete driveway and the concrete sidewalk, at the same time that my left hip hit a small pile of scrap 2X4's, and an instatnt later the whole rest of me slammed into the concrete driveway. The witnesses said it sounded like a car wreck. I didn't move, my eyes were rolled back into my head with my eyes wide open, my mouth clenched shut and the sides of my tongue were bitten clean through (right side somewhat severed), blood pouring out my left scalp, neck and left elbow. I wasn't breathing for almost 2 minutes, but that's according to witnesses who were obviously traumatized by the whole thing and may not be reliable in terms of the passage of time. After those couple of minutes my breathing restarted with gurgling gasps. 911 was called, and although I slowly was regaining consciousness when I heard the sirens, I still couldn't open my eyes or maybe just couldn't see, and didn't know where I was. I hurt something fierce but honestly felt pretty detatched from everything. The worst part was being strapped into the stretcher -- I'm mega-claustrophobic, and all I could do to keep the panic down was to make jokes non-stop on the 25-minute trip to the hospital. I was probably incoherent and only I knew what I was saying, but at least the EMT's were laughing, too. That actually helped a lot.

I was discharged at about 2PM today, according to everybody it was "miraculous." Although the EMT's had (as far as I was told by the ER attending physician later on as he was stapling my scalp back together) called in that I had a severe skull fracture and probable broken hip/pelvis and possible punctured lung, as it turned out I didn't have a single broken bone, nothing punctured, nothing separated or dislocated, just really bad bruising, some heavy swelling, and a severe concussion. Kept me overnight, lots of tests etc., all fine except for the concussion and the big ol' hurtin' going on. Lots of staples on my head, a couple on my left eblow, my left butt-cheek is swollen about 3-times the size of the right one and is completely black and blue, but otherwise - Fluffy lives! Fluffy just didn't land on his feet... BAD Fluffy! Bad... bad kitty. OK. So, I was able to walk on my own by 9 this morning - well, with a walker, but by noon I was pretty much going along (slowly) without the walker. I still need help sitting down and getting up, and laying down/getting up is the thing I dread but it gets done with a little help from family. I won't be able to drive until at least Monday, but I'm okay with that, I need the R&R.

In contrast, about 10 or 12 years ago, the husband of a family friend fell in a similar way, only fell about 12 feet (I fell about 19 or 20' from the bottom of my feet, I'm a little over 6' 1" tall), he landed almost the exact way as me but he died on impact.

I hurt, but MAN! is everything beautiful. The thunderstorms this morning, glorious sunshine all day, magnificent sunset tonight - it's a humbling thing.

Yeah, I know, meds will wear off in a little while, I haven't had anything since probably 4:00 and I don't plan on taking anything more, so I'm probably even more rambling than normal. Just wanted to say thank God for our health! It could've all been over in an instant. I'm extremely grateful.

- Tim

P.S. - I still have to come up with a farm name. I'm open to GOOD ideas. :) And please, I've already thought of (and rejected!) such things as No-Barn Farm, Cat-Barn Farm, Dead Cat Farm, Catskill(ed) Farm, Hairball Hill (as Steve/Bucket Head - Hi, Steve! - wrote, it's a big ol' hill) Farm, Skin-A-Cat Farm, High Kitty Farms (OK, not spelled the same but hey!) :) , Catbox Barn Farm, Herding Cats Farm, Dogfood Farm, etc. OK everyone, just in good fun, don't get mad!

I've got so much to do... I haven't even started to cut wood for fuel or for the sugarhouse. This is the worst time for this to happen. BUt hey, I'll keep shooting for it until I can't shoot anymore and then work for it for the next year. Life is life. I'm glad I'm still on the right side of the grass. The rest of it isn't nearly as important as it was before yesterday.

Z/MAN

06-29-2012, 11:44 PM

WOW! That's all
I can say.

Bucket Head

06-30-2012, 12:13 AM

Hey Tim,
Yikes. Thats a story and a half! Sorry to hear of the accident but I'm very happy to hear your okay. Just take it easy for a while. Don't worry just yet- theres a lot of summer left, lots of time yet for 'projects'. Keep us posted on the codes issue. As for sugarhouse names, skip all the cat related ones, or the only sugarhouse visitors you'll get will be folks from the S.P.C.A. and the Humane Society, and they won't be lookin' to buy syrup!!

And as for future contractor/carpentry jobs, what your saying is if any of us are driving around and see a guy on a ladder, we'll know its you because you'll be the only one wearing a full-face motorcycle helmet for protection?

Seriously, glad to hear your on the mend and it was'nt any worse. You can use some of the recuperating down time to draw up sugarhouse plans! At least that will be a fun way to pass some of the time! -Steve

maple flats

06-30-2012, 06:38 PM

How about "Fluffy's Maple"? Tim, I'll be saying some prayers for you, however I think you already have HIM on your side. HE is not ready for you yet, HE wants you to make your mark as "Fluffy's Maple".
If there is anything I can do just let me know.
On another note, this might make us blood brothers. When I was in my early teens, (12-13?) I was working on a tree house roof. I don't remember how but I fell from the roof to the ground, landed on my back, on top of a barbed wire fence. Fall, about 25'. I was alone so I have no idea how long I laid there, but I still remember waking up, and wasn't sure I was ever going to move again. Eventually I managed to get up and I hobbled home. The only damage (except mental) seemed to be one leg and hip hurt like h*%&. I was also alone at home, so I went down cellar and made a pair of crutches. By the time I finished them, I used them for a few minutes and then put them back down cellar, for the most part I was OK, a little sore but I guess no broken bones. When my parents got home I didn't dare tell them. Several months later my dad found the crutches where I had hid them and I had to fess up. Now the only remaining issue is the mental part, it makes me want to keep making more and more maple syrup.

rookie

07-01-2012, 11:45 AM

well Tim, thats a hellof alot to deal with,but it will only slow you down not stop you! I'll be praying for your speedy recovery. . . . . how about, " How the heck did that coyote get into that barn , Maple Farm" j/k

p.s. coyote can be replaced with fox, fisher cat etc.

Clarkfield Farms

07-03-2012, 09:15 AM

Hah, yes there are coyotes fox fisher raccoon possum and skunks all over the place up there. Maybe they're just too well-fed to bother trying to risk a mouthful per cat.

OK, anyways... still haven't cleared anything up with my lawyer, hopefully today.

I get the staples out this Friday, I hope. Can't drive 'til she (the Dr.) clears me to; her office called today and said as long as no headaches I am good to go, but I said I get very dizzy, mostly when my head is turned at all in any direction, she said ok that's no good, no driving 'til I see you. Note to self: MUST learn to just shut up! J/K, I know it wouldn't be good to be driving. My lower back... oooph. Like I said elsewhere, "Me?OW!" is what Le Fluffee would say.

Where is that lawyer......?

Well, at least I can see up close with reading glasses, and the ToDo List is just getting longer and longer.

Thanks for the thoughts and words and prayers, I really appreciate all of it. Thank you.

rookie

07-19-2012, 03:19 PM

Any up dates Tim? Hope all is well for you , your dad and your building situation

Clarkfield Farms

07-28-2012, 01:36 PM

Eh.... it is what it is. Frustrating, at all levels. But I figure that's okay, we're only frustrated if we're working toward something in the first place. Talking, balance, dizziness - those are probably the worst physical issues now and I expect that they'll pass with time, healing and physical therapy.

There are a couple (or several?) other issues related to either this codes issue or the accident that are too complicated to even think about bringing up for discussion. I may be selling sap wholesale again next maple season, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't expect we'll ever see another spring like this past one in any of our lifetimes, so my trees' sap flow ought to more closely fit the times of other folks' sap flow, and I won't be dumping sap like that ever again.

It's all a slow process to get around to seeing results. I figure I'll just keep running the plays and checking the scoreboard. And adjust as necessary.

Clarkfield Farms

08-24-2012, 01:38 PM

Late for an update, I know, but over the past week or so (days and their respective events seem to easily blur) I spoke with the people at the NYS Ag Protection Unit. They're finishing the review and are/will be serving notice to the Town to explain their reasoning and rationale for denying me the right to go ahead with my plans, unfettered... The Town can elect to sue the State, but it'd be a slam-dunk no-win for the Town. Nevertheless, it could take 6 MORE months to be finally over with. I have a backup plan for making syrup, but it would sure be nice to be able to get it done right, right from the start; I doubt that's the way it has worked out for too many of you!

Clarkfield Farms

10-03-2012, 01:52 PM

Well... I've still got some issues to deal with, can't go back to work yet because the Dr. says that the brain injuries were "extensive," but thankfully 99.9% of me is intact. Or I hope it is. :) Hopefully I can return to some work by November. I haven't been allowed to canoe because of balance problems, or do any other type of water stuff alone. No chainsaws or saw work of any kind, nothing that I need to do to get the land cleared, working the garden and mowing the lawn are about the most strenuous things I'm allowed to do. I cheat sometimes and then am quickly made aware of the wisdom behind the Dr.s' decision.

My Dad is doing well, still plagued by skin cancer issues that they're hesitant to attack "because of his advanced age and the inherent frailty of the elderly." HAH! He took advantage of today's "nicer" weather to get in 9-holes of golf; said after two 18-hole rounds over the past couple of weeks, he's a "little worried about overdoing it." I think he should stop listening to those who tell him he's "aged and frail." I hope I have those genes!

The main reason I'm replying today is to announce that I just received an email from Bob Somers of the NYS Ag Protection unit, copy to the Town Supervisor, asking for a show of cause response why they think I haven't got the right to build a sugar house and/or make repairs to my existing barn. They've got 30 days to reply.

Thank you: Dave (maple flats), Helen, Dr. Tim, Bill Magee and everyone that has done anything, especially your prayers, to help. I can't physically do much on my own yet, and therefore all of it is even more highly valued. I will get back into full swing any day now, I just hope it's in time to have some sort of ability to boil sap come sugaring time. If not, at least I can tap and transport/sell wholesale again.

So, again, my great appreciation to all.

- Tim

P.S. -- "meow" -- still ongoing. :)

Clarkfield Farms

12-10-2012, 01:02 PM

Another late update: Thanks to all of you that were instrumental in getting this issue moved forward, including Bob Somers who I don't know whether or not frequents this site.

As of 10/9/12, Bob had spoken with the Town's Codes Enforcer. At this point all she said that is necessary is to fill out a building permit application and submit it for processing. No guarantees, though. The town also want to know if I intend to sell my syrup from the sugar house, in which case they claim that it will have to be built to standards established under the Building Code of New York State because the public has access to the building; and as such, the structure would no longer be considered an Agricultural Building. "Retail farm sales from a building is considered a mercantile facility." In addition, if I sell from my property, I will have to go through another process and submit to the Town's "streamlined site plan review process." Bob goes on to say that they've worked with another farm that had to submit to this and found that it was not "unreasonably restrictive," but that they review every project on a case-by-case basis.

Anybody else ever go through this? Just wondering... How do you guys that sell from your sugar house and DIDN'T have to "submit to this process" do it?

Anyways, this whole thing began back in April or so. It's December now, and unfortunately June 28th happened in the interim. Income has gone down the toilet, we've lock-boxed our savings (don't want to deplete reserves), and I haven't the strength or coordination back yet sufficient to do ANYthing. Looks like it'll be a jerry-rigged setup this coming season, if anything at all. Good news is that at least I've got the ball rolling, and it appears to be in my court.

So, again, my thanks, and request for any information as to whether or not this "process" is something that's even a true requirement.

- Tim

maple flats

12-10-2012, 05:42 PM

Their laws must be different from the ones I have to deal with. I had no trouble selling from the sugarhouse. Tim, good luck on this, LORD knows you're ready for some good luck!!!
Dave

Clarkfield Farms

12-10-2012, 08:46 PM

lol!!! Thanks, Dave. By the way, that copper pan I brought over to show you is only 24" X 30". I may have something in mind and use it as a syrup or finishing pan, not sure exactly what to do or which way to go from here.

Bucket Head

12-11-2012, 12:19 AM

Hi Tim,

A fair amount of what you passed along from the Codes Dept. still does'nt add up, unless the Town of Paris is unlike any other town in this state. I've never heard of anyone being asked about selling, inviting the public in and going to the "streamlined" process if they are coming in. I do know that selling from the sugar house can change the classification. Thats why many folks who participate with Maple Weekend or just host open houses, will have a tent or something set up outside and sell syrup from there. Thats how that rule is circumvented. State law allows the sale of syrup from the home. So other than an open house-like event, your good. Tell the folks, "No, I'm not selling from the sugarhouse", and get by that hurdle. Going back to the Building code and the public, I'm guessing there are hundreds of open house events in sugarhouses that do not conform to whatever those rules are. So how are all these people holding these events at their sugar houses? You'll have to refresh our memories here- what did Helen Thomas say? If these "rules" were to be enforced, I'm thinking Maple Weekend won't have many participants anymore. Going by what my town requires for Ag-Use and what is considered Ag-Use with the state, you should be issued the permit because the building would be for maple syrup production, you have the acreage for an Ag-Use endeavor (no variances needed) and its not a commercial building as there is no "retail" activity going on there. I think more questions need to be asked. Going back to the retail thing, I know of X-mas tree folks that are growing their trees on their property and selling them there too. But we can't make and sell the syrup at the same location?! All of this codes nonsense is frustrating, for everyone everywhere, but in your case its just not adding up right. What rules and standards are the other Ag-Use folks in town being held to? What are they doing when it comes to outbuildings and newly constructed buildings that they are not selling from? For comparison and the sake of argument, go to the Codes Dept. and say you've scrapped the syrup plan and now your going to start a cucumber farm. Every cucumber farm needs a building, right? What are the town's requirements for that? Like I said, ask around and see what hoops others in your town are being ask to jump through.

Steve

heus

12-11-2012, 06:26 AM

Sounds to me that Clinton, New York is the closest thing to communism that we have here in the U.S.

Bucket Head

12-11-2012, 08:42 AM

LOL!!! Actually, Tim is trying to do the sugar house in the town next to Clinton, and my town borders both of his. And their all the same around here..., very controlling.

Steve

Clarkfield Farms

12-11-2012, 03:19 PM

lol! Yessir, Town of Paris.... hey Steve, I'll bet you thought it couldn't get worse than New Hartford, huh? lol!!!

Actually I'm still waiting for that stuff to be cleared up. I don't understand it at all. Most of the time these days I'm just at the point of throwing in the towel. The trees don't "have" to be tapped, there's always the next year, junk like that starts coming in. Sometimes the only thing keeping me going is that they're the problem in the first place; without them I'd already be all set up and ready to go, so why let 'em win? I don't know, I thought this would all be a lot less of a bureaucratic quagmire than it turned out to be. I don't know how any other town does it, how anyone else in the Town of Paris does it, and hasn't had to go through this garbage. Or maybe they have? Or maybe they know from experience to just do what's right and don't ASK about what "IS" right... maybe that was my first mistake.

At least I got my truck fixed... $2,500 and a replacement engine later. I get ill every time I think about how that would've bought me a nice evaporator. On the bright side, I've gots LOTS of lemonade to sell!!! lol! I figure the truck will come in handy whether I make the syrup there, or use it to haul the sap the 9 miles back here to my place, or haul the sap to Dave (still buying in 2013, ol' buddy ol' pal??? :).

Still lots of ideas - put the arch on or in a trailer so it's not a "structure," maybe have the sugarhouse here in the Town of Kirkland, just operate the evaporator under a tent, etc. And still waiting for clarification of these reg's.

ericjeeper

12-11-2012, 04:20 PM

Sometimes forgiveness,is easier to get than permission.

maple flats

12-11-2012, 05:23 PM

Tim, your sap is always welcome. It sure would be nice to have your own set up but in the meantime, or even after that when you get swamped with sap, Ill be here for you.

rrolleston

02-10-2013, 05:00 PM

I am stunned and dazed. My own property, and I can't do a thing with it!!! As for the barn that's on there now, a side agreement that I had to sign with the seller allows them to retain exclusive use of the barn and its contents for as long as the miserab--- I mean, cats that currently inhabit it --- are alive. Problem is, since I have no rights to access the barn, I have no way to verify whether or not there are the same individual animals NOW as there were last April. Or even if there are ANY... So, as far as using the existing barn and modifying part of it to use as a sugarhouse -- that's not an option, either.

Cats constantly reproduce. Why would you agree to such a thing. I would get a lawyer and see about getting access to the barn for a sugar house.

DonMcJr

02-10-2013, 08:16 PM

Man what a story! I had simialr issues builiding the addition to my house but all it took was $250 for a varience and town meeting 4 weeks later.

Hope it all works out, them laws are crazy! Also I'd be worried that there's something going on in that barn that has nothing to do with the cats. Have you ever been inside it? I would demand a tour or just make your own. I mean really are you going to get in trouble with the law for breaking into a Barn on your own property? Agrreement or not I'd get in there and see what's going on. What if they are doing something against the law in there and get caught? I bet sice it's your property that "Cat Agrrement" wouldn't keep you out of jail...

weekendboiler

02-10-2013, 11:45 PM

I am running into a somewhat similar issue. Im just wondering how they consider making syrup agriculture. I was told by the local zoning commision and the state health inspector(one that I have to deal with in my job on a regular basis) that tapping and collection of sap is considered agriculture. However once you start to process that sap into syrup it is considered a food processing facility and needs to be built as so. including engineered blueprints and all the other inspections that are no different than if I were putting a d*** McDonalds. In MI I know I can get around the food processing facility thing with MI cottage food law but this does nothing to help with the ag building i would like to put up as a sugarhouse. any thoughts?
PS sorry for hi jacking your thread

DonMcJr

02-11-2013, 05:04 AM

Id just tell them you're finishing it in your house kitchen. Better yet all they should really need to know is you're putting up a big shed utility building. Unless you plan on being a Producer Outside of the Cottage Food law then you will have to tell them.

Im not saying to not follow food laws and such...just saying if its small and for yourself what bussiness is it of theirs to know what youre using a utility/shed for?

Clarkfield Farms

02-11-2013, 07:17 PM

Hey guys, yeah it's been awhile since I've looked at this thread. A lot's been going on with this, but the rules have to be followed. And the Number One Rule? WAIT... for the Town to reply to the State ...for Albany to review the Town's reply... etc etc etc...

As far as the feline issue, nothing illegal to my knowledge is going on. I didn't have to sign that agreement, but I also wouldn't have been able to buy the land without signing it. I knew that in time, things would eventually work out and I believe they are moving in that direction. I have chosen to resolve it this way: I offered to build a partition wall on another barn that is on their land on their side of the road. Very simple design, shouldn't be too much at all even with my present condition. They'll provide the materials, I'll build it, it will be very straightforward and hopefully VERY SOON. My concern now (still?) is the timing. With this, as with the Town issues, there is a great deal more to it than there is room to discuss it. The cats are all spayed/neutered. What began decades ago as an act of mercy to help one of the stray cats that another neighbor irresponsibly allowed to breed to vermin population levels because he thought it would be good for keeping down on the rats and mice in his barn turned into a "mission" to "rescue" ALL of the strays caused by that one individual's actions... I always believed that it was misguided and a financial rat hole. But, it did 100% eliminate the stray cat problem, in time; it took a lot of work and investment to capture & neuter, as well as a LOT of time, and the fact that the old fella died and the cats had nowhere else to go for food so they were easier to capture. The Vet said that moving feral cats like them, now, especially those that are over 12 years old, would be bad for them. We've worked out a solution, Vet-approved... >sigh<.....

I am more than ever considering the possibility of a mobile evaporator, not only as a means to circumvent The Regime's rules but because there may be the possibility of a large lease opportunity elsewhere. Again, details too varied to go into too deeply. The only other solution is two sugarhouses but I don't like that idea because that other parcel isn't mine, but on the other hand the concept of a mobile arch comes with its own unique burden(s) to make it handle the rigors of being trailered around.

I can't help on the rules you guys have to deal with in Michigan, this one town in this one county in THIS state is more of an issue than I would have ever dreamed possible. And according to Albany, this Town is becoming more aggressive in trying to change its image from the farming roots that birthed it. The same crew that used to make fun of this town and those of us growing up in it way back when I was a kid in school, grew up to move here and now they actually run it. "Agriculture" is a word they speak with distinct disdain and condescension. Almost like some gooey thing they can't shake from the end of their finger after putting it where it don't belong in the first place, and still somehow manage to make it look like it's all YOUR fault. ;)

But, I'm determined and that's the one thing "they" never counted on. As long as I don't quit the fight or get impatient with the rules, Albany (thus far at least) will back me.

Anyways, an awful lot of long stories related to all of this that change too rapidly to bother relating here. My health was in quite the decline for some months but thank God that has reversed and I'm back up to nearly 60% of my old self now. I'm hopeful and expectant that I'll be better than ever come high summer. And without looking behind, or even feeling the need to look back, letting this past year slip away into history as one I'll gladly forget.

OK, that's it for now.

- Tim

maple flats

02-12-2013, 07:46 PM

Tim, I still wish you the best. This nightmare will end someday, soon I hope.
2 sugarhouses sounds like a poor choice unless you get real big. I'd rather haul the sap and just have 1 location for production.

Clarkfield Farms

02-14-2013, 07:51 PM

lol! I agree. And thank you, Dave. I appreciate that.

As far as the other property, it's my sister's land in Forestport. There's roughly 380 acres, the predominant species is red maple but there are 26 small groves of very nice mature sugar maple. The terrain is perfect for tubing slopes. The potential, now, is for about 5,000 taps, but obviously I'm not ready for that yet. With what's still maturing, even offsetting loss of existing trees over time, in another 4 or 5 years that will increase to about 5,800 or more.

So, that's why I was considering another setup. The only unfortunate things about the property: 1) It's not mine; 2) it's about 40 miles from me; 3) snow stays long up there, and the land all slopes from the highway down to the lake almost a mile distant, and the dirt road running from the highway down to the lake is choked with snow usually well into May. The good: It's family, it's free, the season there usually starts just as the season here is winding down, and that town isn't so permit-anal.

Anyways, a lot of these things are just out of reach so I figure I'll just focus on what I can get done in the here and now, and there should be plenty of that to keep me busy until these other things come to be. Even if it means hauling sap to you another year. :D Which would still suit me fine.

I did receive another call from the Ag Protection Unit, they want to make sure that nothing slips by them and that no one's trying to bully me behind their back. Too bad most lawyers aren't that useful. :) <---- my apologies to any syrup-making lawyers here!

Mark

02-14-2013, 10:07 PM

If I were to do it again I would never mention maple syrup. I would build a garage and say I need a restroom, put in a well and septic. Later on I would decide to make a little syrup as a hobby then expand.

I am running into a somewhat similar issue. Im just wondering how they consider making syrup agriculture. I was told by the local zoning commision and the state health inspector(one that I have to deal with in my job on a regular basis) that tapping and collection of sap is considered agriculture. However once you start to process that sap into syrup it is considered a food processing facility and needs to be built as so. including engineered blueprints and all the other inspections that are no different than if I were putting a d*** McDonalds. In MI I know I can get around the food processing facility thing with MI cottage food law but this does nothing to help with the ag building i would like to put up as a sugarhouse. any thoughts?
PS sorry for hi jacking your thread

heus

02-14-2013, 10:10 PM

YeastPimp I admire your determination.

Clarkfield Farms

02-27-2013, 09:04 AM

Absolutely incredibly wonderful day yesterday was... a "new" therapy was requested and recommended because of inconsistent, sporadic improvement thus far. It was only an assessment and evaluation, but the effect that it had on me, and my brain and body response was nothing less than miraculous... it's an exceptionally long story, even for me lol!, but I gotta say, WOW. After now having been able to document and verify 37 incidents of severe head trauma over my lifetime, 6 of which caused loss of consciousness and the last one which stopped my heart and breathing, it's been a little bit of a task living "normal." Anyways, in a nutshell, I seriously have NOT felt this well since childhood and next month I turn double nickles. The state speed limit. Or, if you haven't figured it out yet, I'm having a wee bit of difficulty admitting to becoming 55, lol!!! It didn't completely last, some of it has but I asked them to give me a realistic expectation and they gave it to me - until the actual therapy or treatments begin, most of the results would not be long-lasting. But I don't care, I'm still feeling better than the majority of my life's experience. They were, in their words, "literally stunned" that I had the positive responses that I did, none had seen anything like it before. ANYWAYS.... sorry, but even my speech returned 100% for almost an hour, and is still significantly improved most of the time, the atrophied and collapsed right shoulder and arm are like a withered plant that's been watered, not even I can get over that, still a lot of pain but NOTHING like it has been and most of the pain is limited to JUST the right side of the neck and right shoulder. Yesterday morning after I got home, I felt so good I went out back and cut-split-stacked almost a full cord of wood, something I wouldn't have been able to do for a long long time, and I felt NO soreness or additional pains because of it. I now feel perfectly warm instead of freezing, in fact I'm prone to a bit of perspiration just at rest; my shoulder "collapse" is almost normal, my gait is now symmetrical and steady, and when getting off the table yesterday, for the first time since June 28th I had NO dizziness or confusion or loss of balance. Before, whenever getting up or down from either seated or prone position, fuggetaboudit.... :) but nothing since.

ANYWAYS!!!! On to sugarhouse news!!! Yes, garrulous to the extreme but I feel like an innocent man wrong convicted and sentenced to death, and with only seconds remaining before the execution the proof of innocence is presented and he's free. No, that's not an exaggeration or being over-dramatic. It's been been the hardest thing I've ever had to do, trying to act as normal as possible but slipping like a rock.

So, still awaiting some news on the codes front. I'm not going to have a sugarhouse built in time for this season, but it won't be much longer. I do think that I'll apply for a permit to build a pole barn for machinery storage for the farm-to-be, then let Albany back me if there's trouble. I think this would be a wiser choice given what I've got to deal with right now. And as long as it's positioned right, and although it'll have at least the front open, who's to say I can't just slide a makeshift arch/evaporator in the in the meanwhile, provided plans are approved and conditions are conducive to building? :)

Also, I've decided on a name for the farm. Not being able to talk sure makes you stay quiet on the outside but nothing slows down on the inside, in fact maybe it speeds up as a result. But between my ideas and the family's suggestions, there were literally hundreds of good choices. Anyhow, I settled on "Clarkfield Farms." Last name is Clark, and I figure that any fields I own or rent/lease would be, well, "Clark's fields," so.... oh what the heck, at least I like it. Hey, they've got Smithfield Pork, Jerseyfield Lake, town named Westfield so why not?

OK, chronically long-winded, sorry that wasn't something that disappeared as a result of yesterday. I don't know how this long this improved "state" will last but I'll revel in it while it's here.

Thanks for your patience. :)

- Tim

maple flats

02-27-2013, 10:46 AM

Tim,
I hope it lasts until................. it gets even better. Good for you.
Dave

Bucket Head

02-27-2013, 11:33 PM

Tim,

As I mentioned way back in this discussion, get some pigs up there and really give the codes officer an agricultural dilema. Pig farms always get the townsfolk talkin'...,lol. And then you can also have Clarkfield Pork!! The codes officer will be so busy fielding complaint phone calls from folks downwind of the farm, he won't have time to look at your "illegal" sugar shack!

Steve

Clarkfield Farms

02-28-2013, 07:17 AM

lol!... Steve, c'mon, you know the area, "downwind" of the prevailing wind sees no human habitation for miles, only hills, woods and fields. Next road is a looooong ways east. :) But, I like the idea anyways; 'sides, the wind doesn't always blow from the west. ;)

Clarkfield Pork, eh? hmmm. >bacon!< :D

bowtie

02-28-2013, 10:45 AM

i have found that the less the gov't gets their hands the better. they have a hard time agreeing to disagree.

DonMcJr

03-10-2013, 02:51 PM

Someone else posted this.... http://qc.kijiji.ca/c-acheter-et-vendre-autres-CABANE-A-SUCRE-MOBILE-W0QQAdIdZ463610061

Bucket Head

03-12-2013, 10:57 PM

Thats a nice setup. For a guy who has a small operation and/or might not have a place to build a permanant sugarshack, I think its perfect. And as I mentioned in the other post with this photo, the evaporator can be leveled with a tire pressure gauge.

Steve

Clarkfield Farms

03-13-2013, 10:33 AM

Hey, Don. Yes, that's along the lines I was thinking. And it's a LOT cheaper than what it would cost me to build a sugarhouse, but I know it's life expectancy is far less than a sugarhouse.

Steve, as for leveling via tire pressure gauge, I'm a little confused. When static, I can see how, but as soon as something changes, i.e. transitions to dynamic loads (me moving around, adding sap, boiling off, etc.), won't level be off? I don't read French so well.... maybe it's explained in the text of the ad.

Thanks!
- Tim

P.S. --- Steve, have you had the opportunity to pump any sap out of the tank yet? Just wondering how the flow has been, I haven't been up there since Sunday. I have to get up there today to see what the crazy wind and torrential rain messed up and fix as needed.

Jayenelee

03-23-2013, 09:26 PM

Simply ask the code officer for a copy of the laws she cited in writing. She sounds like one of "those kind" and requiring them to present everything in writing can clear up a lot of "code" issues in a real hurry. I dealt with one who couldn't string two sentences together without telling at least one lie, and simply quoted the Codes pertaining to that job a couple times, and he backed off considerably.

Run Forest Run!

03-23-2013, 09:49 PM

Tim, the ad doesn't say anything about leveling, however they do mention that a selling point is that you could use the mobile unit in the summer as an outdoor stage. Got any interest in putting on puppet shows in July to make a few bucks?:lol:

Clarkfield Farms

03-26-2013, 09:50 AM

hahahahahah!!! Karen, I was thinking sock puppets but I hear that the Town is outlawing any potential portrayals of them treating US like puppets, maybe? OK, that was purely for laughs, not being serious since I now am wondering, based on recent correspondence, if some fine elected folks from said Town are also reading this. I do hope so.

Jayenelee, I purchased (yes, they must be purchased) a copy of the Town's Codes and also Zoning Reg's. I've referenced a few of the points elsewhere in this thread, I think, but bottom line - the main sticking point - is that since the Town reg's all state that barns, etc are "auxiliary buildings," and that ALL such auxiliary buildings MUST be built to the rear of the residence (and it must be THE PRIMARY residence!), and since I do not HAVE a residence on the property, therefore no auxiliary buildings of any kind whatsoever can be built since, in the absence of a primary residence, nothing can be built to the rear of said missing primary residence.... wow. Oh, and their new reg's? Even more hostile to agriculture, and the state is considering filing suit unless they bring the reg's around to being in line with state Ag laws/policies.

As I said, I hope the Town IS reading, and listening. Nothing to hide on my part. I do expect that I'll be building this year, more than a full year past the time I first approached the Town in good faith. Granted, part of the delays were due to my injuries and subsequent lack of ability to proceed. But I'm hopeful that ALL of it has come around and will soon be resolved. It's just unfortunate that this sort of mess is the "new normal."

Clarkfield Farms

08-27-2013, 06:27 PM

Probably oughta start a new updated thread...

Anyways, the Town is still dancing around the issue. The State Ag Protection Unit is unable to act until a review of the "new" regulations are submitted by said Town. I've had personal encounters with the aforementioned Codes Enforcer and certain other Town officials, including but not limited to grieving the tax assessment for my father's property in the same Town. The assessor had the wrong computer photo of my father's house, I don't even know what town she took that photo but it was NOTHING AT ALL in any way shape or form similar to his house, and they've got (actually, HAD) him assessed at more than 80% above any comparable neighboring parcels... it's all so convoluted, I haven't had the stomach to update any of this before now. I can see them hitting me on the chin, but to nail my 95-year-old Dad???? I'd say, "Now it's war," but that'd be kinda redundant.... that began some time ago.

At each encounter with said Codes Enforcer, she never once missed an opportunity to remind me to take good care of my barn, since "we'll never let you rebuild on that property, ever." The state had to issue a directive to them warning them not to prohibit me from doing any and all necessary improvements or repairs to the barn, as I see fit. The Town's response was that they wouldn't prevent me from doing as the State directed, but if I so much as changed the dimensions of a single window or door during said improvement or repair activities, they'd bring "swift and severe enforcement to bear upon said prospective applicant," meaning me.

At this time, I'm pretty much over getting all riled up about this stuff. I just follow the lead of the State and the advice of my lawyer.

The cats are officially gone, and clean-up/clean-out, disinfection/deodorization/sanitization of the barn is under way and repairs will come next. I have been informed that the Town cannot enforce any "long-term" sanctions or penalties against me for the construction of a sugar house and that I do not in fact need a permit for building one, but DO need to file a permit application to allow them to include the structure in recalculating my tax assessment, and that if they did go ahead and enforce them (most certainly they would/will) they would ultimately lose but nonetheless during the interim I'd have a terrible time of it... I do believe I'll be organizing a building party in the near future, funds allowing. I've had to replace my truck (got a used F350 Superduty with a V10 and duallies), picked up two old tractors ('44 Farmall H and a '55 Allis Chalmers WD45 with loader, 3-bottom plows and a set of double-ring tires chains), Dolmar 5105 chainsaw, another 325-gallon tank/tote, and some other supplies for other ag-related stuff, so things got tight fairly quickly. If I can get year-round water in place, I'll be getting a small herd of Galloway's and start small with another herd of Boer goats. Got some hops growing, I'll be setting aside a large portion of the land for growing wine grapes with an eye on getting a farm winery license, which by the way will be an oh-so-WONDERFUL poke in the eye of said Town under the NYS Real Property Tax Exemption For Orchards and Vineyards Law!, along with a section to keep in small grain rotation. Plus, all of the land is in Oneida County Ag District No. 6, so -- ????? That Town needs an enema to extricate it's head. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any room to insert a tube, what with said head in the way. That's as clean as I can write that.

We had plans for a portion of a parcel of land that I had cleared, it's up over the hill, to be put into pumpkins but this year's rains were absolutely devastating. I'm just VERY glad I didn't have that ground plowed at that time.

We've since found that we've got a natural growth of certain wild woodland "crops" growing, and I've found a market in PA that will pay significantly more than market value for these because of the potency of the samples I sent them. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of any one species, and it can take up to 10-15 years for them to reach marketable maturity. But I've been getting some help from the DEC and Cornell regarding how to effectively propagate and encourage/enhance the spread of those species. That's all I've got to publicly say about THOSE species, lol!! Quite legal, I promise, it's just that they're very susceptible to unscrupulous types. :)

Anyways, that's the update. I'm still looking for a wood splitter and an evaporator/arch, even if I don't have a sugar house built in time at least I'll have the barn in shape to somewhat shelter an evaporator out the back door.

It's long been said that Life is too short for -- oh you name it, it applies. But with today's political and regulatory climate, they've made it ever so clear that Life is also too LONG for any of it. Who wants to put up with THIS crap in their "pursuit of happiness?" Liberty already seems a thing of the past. Life? Well, I've already commented on that, so --

Adios! And here's to a great finish to this summer and high hopes for the future!

- Tim

heus

08-27-2013, 10:27 PM

We have lost more freedoms since 9/11 than most people realize.

maple flats

08-28-2013, 07:34 AM

Tim, even though the town still hasn't changed their stance, congratulations on what you have accomplished. Who would ever think they would buck the state laws, rules and regulations so long.
Great to hear you finally have full access and use of the barn, relating to the cat issue.
The start on your equipment sounds impressive. Are both tractors a wide front end version? If not be extremely careful on your hills. I had an H about 40 yrs ago, good tractor. If you will be running PTO equipment with those older tractors, get an over riding PTO added. They simply mount on the PTO and have a 1 way gear to keep the equipment from pushing you when you push in the clutch. If both tractors are 1 3/8 shafts this can be easily moved from one tractor to the next. Then make sure you stay away from a turning PTO shaft, they can be deadly.
What size evaporator are you looking for? Yesterday I saw 2 in Utica Craig's List, but both sounded too pricy. Keep an eye open, you will find one at some point.
As for freedom's lost, heus is right. And if we aren't careful we keep losing more almost daily. It was once said by one of the founding fathers (?), "He who gives up a write in the name of security deserves neither", or something to that effect. Enough said in that thought, lest I get deleted.
Good luck getting the barn back in shape and sanitized.
How many taps are you at, still 53 or have you added more (or lost some)?
I see you have a 350, I'm still looking, but since I just bought a new (2012) 36 HP Mahindra, model 3616, with cab, heat, AC, loader, hydrostatic and a payment book, I won't be getting a 1 ton anytime soon. My 250 will have to suffice for a while.

Clarkfield Farms

08-28-2013, 02:11 PM

Hey, Dave, your 250 is a beast and I've seen it in action, one tough truck.

I've seen a bunch of evaporators on CL, but as you say they're either pricey, or not necessarily well-built homemades, or junk. There was that one I sent you the link about, but I called on it the same day and it was already sold. Yesterday, I spoke with Carol over at Shaw's Maple Products, they're only about 4 miles or so from my house. They're also Shaw's metal fabrication. I wish I had the money a couple years back when they had a real BEAUT of an evaporator... but anyways, Carol said they'd put out their feelers through all their contacts for a good used one. I do believe the right one will be coming along at an opportune time.

The H is a narrow front end, the WD45 is wide. I know what you mean about the narrow on the hills, this is only the second tractor I've had that was narrow BECAUSE of the hills. Used to have a little Massey Harris 22 that we used only for raking hay. The other Massey Harris', the John Deere, Oliver and Fords all were wide front. The H will be kept on flat ground if it's pulling anything, except for the occasional light load up and down the hills. Well, that said, I actually had it mowing around the perimeter of the lower field now that the wheat's been harvested and the straw's been baled. It did quite well for being what it is, and pulling that 1,000 pound plus mower. It never even grunted except when climbing that high spot in the southeast corner of the field, and it was in 3rd gear! Usually, the formula is 5HP per foot of mower cut, so that'd figure to 30HP for this mower but the H (rated around 25HP on the PTO) didn't act like it had done the calculations correctly, lol! A few people have suggested that since the H is in such nice condition, I ought to restore it and make back more money selling it than I've spent on equipment so far. It certainly is something to consider.

As for the overrunning PTO adapter, oh definitely! lol! It'll mostly be only on the Farmall, since the Allis has that nifty second "hand clutch" that let's you stop tractor movement and allow hydraulics and/or PTO to continue without having to shift out of gear or depress the foot clutch, etc.; next-best thing to live PTO/hydraulics. But yes, both are 1-3/8 6-spline shafts. I also picked up an older, tow-behind (non-3-point hitch) Woods Cadet 72, it's a 6' rotary mower. Right now the Allis' radiator is over at Canfield's in Utica, should have it back this afternoon sometime after 3PM. I've also spent a lot in little parts and tune-up stuff, still not done since I'm looking for any decent used rear tires for both. I've often said that I love these old tractors because they're easy to work on; now, I say it's a good thing that they're easy to work on because we have to do it so often!! And the prices for parts for these old relics -- not even 15 years ago, a thermostat for the H was around $3.00. NOW?!?!?! ooohhhhh, i feel a burn in my stomach coming on.... $41.00!!!!! I was able to shop around and find one for $33, and sadly that somehow made me feel like I got a deal. Not unlike finding 87-Octane gasoline for $3.60 a gallon and thinking "WOW!!! Everywhere else it's at least $3.77! WHAT A DEAL!!!," when in reality it belongs somewhere in the range of $1.80-$2.05 per gallon. Yikes, now it may be ME getting deleted!

The WD45 should be an easy conversion to 3-pt hitch, but we'll put that purchase/project off for another time.

Next year, the tap count will either remain at 53 if I still am not boiling for myself or should rise to about 100-110 if I am boiling, partly from picking up some neighbors and partly because I'll probably put out buckets for those trees that are on the far side of the hill that tubing won't do any good for.

Getting more of the barn cleaned out every day, but it's a much more tedious and slower process than I can describe. And you're all welcome that I'm not describing it. Hazmat conditions prevail... Can't wait, though, when it's done all this "stuff" will be long forgotten! Kind of like, no one remembers the 9 months of pregnancy-related agony once the beautiful baby is born. Nope, can't wait!

If you ever need to borrow the 350, holler, except that it doesn't have a 5th wheel/gooseneck setup.

Clarkfield Farms

01-27-2015, 01:23 PM

Well, I thought I had made this update the other day but -- it doesn't look like it posted. I know that it's pushing 18 months since the last post, but hey... I've been busy. :)

The State's threats against the Town seem to be vanishing, and the Town is quite pleased with themselves that their strategy of postponement is such a success. But there are now 3 other property owners joining the fray because the Town has also nixed the other landowners' requests for constructing sugar houses.

The "cat house" has been cleared and (relatively) clean since last spring. The ground level is for machinery storage and repairs, the upstairs/hayloft is slowly progressing toward the goal of a woodworking shop.

My Dad died back on November 2nd, I've written elsewhere about that. We (my wife and I) are looking at purchasing his house which is across the road from our land, in fact the driveways are exactly opposite each other. The nice thing is that although the house parcel is only an acre, it has a 20'X40' garage-style single-story "barn" about 50' from the house and it would be extremely simple to convert it to a sugar house, and there's not a THING that the Town could do to stop it. The problem is that I have 4 brothers and 5 sisters and - well, let your imagination run wild. It'd probably be close enough to the truth. I have a meeting Thursday morning to see about going any farther along this path.

I had a line on an evaporator, in fact on Sunday night when I was typing the missing post it was as good as mine. It was only about 50 minutes away, and I offered to give a deposit to hold it until I had time to look at it next weekend. It looked, and sounded, to be perfect for my needs. "No," the proposed seller said, "I'll take you at your word, that's good enough for me. I'm the kind of guy who still believes that a man's only as good as his word."

Oh, how embarrassing it would be for him if he only WERE that kind of guy, lol!! At 11PM Sunday, I get a (cowardly?) text from him: "Sorry dude, thanks for your interest but I just sold it." hehehe!! I don't know... somebody 'splain that one to me?!?! :D

Hopefully the typo's aren't as bad in this as they are in earlier posts of mine. "writes" is not = rights. doh!!!!

Sugarmaker

01-28-2015, 10:05 AM

I remember your post about the barn.
Hope you can get your dad's place. I went through a very painful 2 year process on my dad's and I didn't even want it.
Anyway sorry about the evaporator you missed out on! Must be a reason! I had the same thing happen on a goose neck trailer. I made the deal and then the owner called me back and said his buddy had already sold it!

I see you have a WD45. Nice! I just finished a WD wide front end.
Maybe check out the Allis Fourm? I am over there a lot, Ok too much!
Good luck with your maple season.
Regards,
Chris

Clarkfield Farms

01-28-2015, 01:25 PM

lol... Yes I'm over there too, Chris. :) I sold - or rather traded - the old Farmall H to a young guy, 17, was looking for a tractor of his own. Long story, that one! The WD45 has need of a seal replacement on the PTO housing, and the transmission clutch stopped working without warning. Fortunately there's a neighboring farmer who does tractor repairs, I've got to give him a call.

maple flats

01-28-2015, 05:27 PM

Tim, I still think you should just build. A farm structure does not need a permit, but it could get ugly for sure.
As I said near the beginning, I had a permit that took months to get approved, holding up the start of my sugarhouse. Then after the sugarhouse was completed I read that a permit had not been necessary. I talked with the codes officer and he admitted that permits are not required for farm structures, however, IF you get one you must build to code and pass inspections. Doesn't that just sound like our government at it's finest.

Clarkfield Farms

01-28-2015, 07:07 PM

lol... Right you are, Dave, except that these goons won't recognize me or the property as a farm because I don't generate > $10,000 in revenue, YET... My response, which was called, literally, "stupid" by the board: "With your artificial obstacles in place, NO ONE CAN generate ANY AMOUNT of farm revenue!" That was followed by dead silence, and then a muted "Well that's just stupid." And that was followed by murmurings of agreement and head nodding by the rest of them.

That was awhile back... May, actually. And three hours later, I was grieving my father's property taxes, and 2 of the same individuals were on that board.

There were no objections or dissenting opinions at the tax grievance. The assessed value was reduced by $58,000. I told them shame on you, you've been overcharging this man for decades. Their reply was that he had the right to grieve his taxes, I reminded them that I HAD done that on his behalf, every year for 4 years, and even with an appraisal in hand it was rejected. And my father always refused to allow me to go before an arbitrator for appeal. This year I was loaded for bear. And the bear blinked.

And my Dad died before he ever saw a reduction in those taxes.

Oh, here's another one I forgot: The guy I'm RENTING the front 7 acres to? They'll let HIM build a structure, since he's a farmer with an enormous agribusiness and as a lessee he "qualifies!!!" GAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!! :D :D :D But no, I already tried the end run around them to try to pay him to build my sugar house... nixed.

I don't know. The Town where I live has no problem with me building a sugar house, this home area is also in an Ag District albeit a different one from the farm 9+/- miles distant. Maybe I'll just build here and haul sap here. The bad thing is, even though the "fight" is keeping me involved, it has sadly become the distracting focal point instead of me keeping my focus on pursuing my goals.

lol... oh well. All our days are numbered. I plan on seeing this one out before mine are up!! :)

- Tim

Sugarmaker

01-29-2015, 01:10 PM

Tim,
Your getting pulled through a knot hole for sure! Hauling sap is not a bad thing. Could be a option for you?
Make sure I know who you are on the Allis Forum (I have the same handle over there). We can talk tractors and take your mind off this for a few minutes.
Regards,
Chris

Clarkfield Farms

01-29-2015, 01:17 PM

Yes, Chris, I'm more or less set up to haul; I have a 275-gallon collection tank and a 325-gallon tank ("caged totes" both, actually) for the truck, and the truck is an F-350 SuperDuty dually 4X4 with a V10. It'll haul more than I can fit on it, lol... The farm is on one side of a valley and my house is a few miles over the other side of the same valley. Hills are an issue but that truck eats hills and heavy loads like they're not even there. :D

Sugarmaker

01-29-2015, 01:36 PM

Tim,
Sounds like your in business with the big Ford!
Do you have a evaporator set up yet? I seen you were asking about a pan?
Regards,
Chris

Clarkfield Farms

03-05-2015, 12:00 AM

Wow, sorry Chris, I haven't checked here in awhile. Family health issues have been keeping me and my nerves in knots. Not to mention this hellacious winter.

Nope, I haven't got anything set up yet. And with being "caregiver" to more than a couple of family members at a time for far too long now, it's taking/taken its toll on my health as well. I'm not even sure if I'll be tapping this year. I'm too far behind on everything else. It's been 5 weeks since I've even been over to the farm. I did get up there once a few weeks ago to do some snow removal around the front of the barn but that's about all. I'm not sure I remember what it looks like anymore.

I am not giving up on looking for a setup, though. Not giving up on tapping, either. I just need to take a break, take a breath, make arrangements for some relief/help, make the time and do something. Stir crazy ain't the word... phrase... whatever... I'm wore out.

I think I may talk to my lawyer about suing the Town. And each individual member that's stood in my way. I don't care about the money. They've taken away a lot of what's rightfully mine. We all talk about "something needs to be done." But we just talk, because that's the way civilized societies are supposed to do things. But who gets to DO ANYTHING when those are the perceived restrictions? I am tired of the smoke and mirrors. It's time to hold all those accountable, accountable. No more allowing the hiding behind titles and offices and letters after their names. They're not weathermen, they can be held accountable for wrongdoing. And I'm getting facts together about it being malicious intent on the part of some, therefore the intent of suing individuals as well. Probably saying more than I should. It's about midnight and I am weary...

Sugarmaker

03-05-2015, 07:48 AM

Tim,
Ok to vent here. Maybe it will help you solidify your position. Wishing you the best with your health too.
Regards,
Chris

David in MI

03-05-2015, 09:52 AM

It sounds like the past couple of years has been quite tough for you for a number of reasons. Hang in there and know that we are all pulling for you. Dealing with family issues while simultaneously fighting with the local g creates a set of tensions that is very unpleasant overall. Regarding the construction of your sugar house; if I understand your situation correctly, hasn't the State of New York Ag Dept essentially told you that no permit is required and given you their blessing, so to speak? If so, have you given any thought to just moving forward and starting construction? This may be a riskier approach but perhaps your lawyer friend can offer his advise on this. I'm much more familiar with Michigan law (no building permit required for ag buildings) where this is very black and white. If it's that clear in your State, perhaps it's time to call their bluff.

sirsloop

03-05-2015, 10:44 AM

ahhhh the ol code enforcement BS.... I think every property owner has had a run in with them at one time or another. I think they all enjoy running people through the gauntlet, extorting money to justify their existence. Gotta love how they mysteriously appear to check out work going on... makes you wonder which neighbor called them. I avoid them like the plague... even if they tell you one thing today they'll change their mind in the future and expect you to pay for the "error". unreal.

Clarkfield Farms

03-05-2015, 11:07 AM

Dave in MI, I just read and replied to your PM's. Thank you, and as I state in the reply, I'm going to check to see if there is a revised, PRINTED (that's the criteria they said matters), copy of the Codes and go from there.

Sisrsloop, that's exactly what they did with my barn. It was built back in 1978 or 79, inspected, all that... and then when this all started, they give me the guff about it not being legal, never should've been built, built too close to the road, on and on... Nevermind that THE TOWN approved it all, back then. The "new marshal" in town had a bone to pick with us... time for a showdown, I guess.

OK, gotta run. Be back later today sometime. And thanks to all the encouragers!!!

- Tim

maple flats

03-05-2015, 11:12 AM

I think I may talk to my lawyer about suing the Town. And each individual member that's stood in my way. I don't care about the money. They've taken away a lot of what's rightfully mine. We all talk about "something needs to be done." But we just talk, because that's the way civilized societies are supposed to do things. But who gets to DO ANYTHING when those are the perceived restrictions? I am tired of the smoke and mirrors. It's time to hold all those accountable, accountable. No more allowing the hiding behind titles and offices and letters after their names. They're not weathermen, they can be held accountable for wrongdoing. And I'm getting facts together about it being malicious intent on the part of some, therefore the intent of suing individuals as well. Probably saying more than I should. It's about midnight and I am weary...
Tim, sorry to hear about your health and the family's health. If I can do anything, you still have my number.
I agree about seeing your lawyer about the town. It is unbelievable that the town is making it impossible for you to farm as allowed by state law. It seems like the pressure Bill Magee, chairman of the State Assembly Ag. Committee applied had no positive results in your favor. A lawsuit might be the only remedy now.
Here's hoping you and the family's health improve and you can get on track.

Clarkfield Farms

03-05-2015, 05:43 PM

Thank you, Dave! And I do recall one thing, without going back to look over my notes in the folder (or earlier in this thread), if I in fact recall it correctly, that the Town refuses to acknowledge "me," as "the farmer" of that land. I know that I had asked my accountant, he said we're filing a Schedule F, that should be sufficient, but the State said I may need to meet the minimum criteria to be called a farm, namely the minimum gross revenue. Which, sadly, I don't yet, but the fact is that it's TOWN preventing much, if not all of that, from happening! Believe me, I'm very much repulsed by the entire idea of lawsuits. But this situation leaves little else in the way of getting a satisfactory remedy.

sirsloop

03-05-2015, 08:08 PM

my last run in with the inspectors cost me bout $1,500 and a trip to court... I feel your pain... granted I don't have an entire barn being held over my head. They did threaten to require me to gut my entire finished basement to go on a expedition looking for non-existant hidden electrical junctions....zzzzzzz. Friends of mine had a small chocolate business in town... got their production shop flooded out in Sandy. They moved their chocolate temper machine to the back room of their retail shop and was charged $1,000 a day because the retail shop is not zoned for food production <facepalm>. They moved their retail shop to the next town over...

Clarkfield Farms

03-28-2015, 02:47 PM

OK, this is for all you guys & gals who are at least somewhat local to me (say, Oneida, Herkimer, Madison and Otsego Counties) - First, I know that you're probably running your Maple Weekends and you won't see this until somewhere between now and when you can breathe again sometime next week, but please consider responding to what I'm asking, and keep in mind that I'm staying on topic because the question pertains to maple sugar houses.

For privacy's sake, probably more yours than mine, I'd prefer that replies be sent via PM's, email, or phone if you have my number. If you think it's appropriate to answer on an open forum, feel free to, all fine with me either way. In fact, any/every one feel free, but my request is to see if anyone else has ever been subjected to this and if so, what they've done about it.

So, my question: If you're allowing "the public" to enter into your sugar house, during this weekend or any other time, is/are your building(s) up to codes and NYS sanitary requirements for establishments open to the public, AND, is/are your building(s) ever inspected, and if so, how often? And is it/are they classified as "mercantile facilities"?

My reason for asking is that there is another (but not a new) impediment "The Town" has thrown in my way; the building has to meet the conditions as outlined - well, above, and below (copied, for real):

"...furthermore we would like to know if you intend to sell your syrup from the barn or the sugar house, when and if said building is ever permitted. If so (syrup sales), the sales facility will have to be built to standards established under the Building Code of New York State because the public has access to the building. Under the BCNYS, the structure would no longer be considered an agricultural building. Retail farm sales from a building is considered a mercantile facility. If you sell from your property, you will also have to go through the Town’s streamlined site plan review process. We have worked with many other farms that had to submit to this review and found that it was not unreasonably restrictive. We review every project, however, on a case by case basis..."

Do/did you all have to go through all that? Did your sugar house lose it's agricultural classification? Do you have to follow any "new" guidelines because it's now designated a "mercantile facility?"

I think I'm a gonna find me a new planet, I am. And first thing I'm a gonna do, after I plant me some sugar maples and get me a sugar operation a goin', is to build me a space defense system to shoot down each and every ship trying to bring in anyone carrying idjiot genes. Yup. Gonna do just that. "Clarkfield's Clean Gene Screen," I'll call it. Yup. Think I will...

I have the towel in my hand right now. I honestly don't know whether or not I'm at the point of throwing it in just yet... I know I've brought this up before, but after visiting a few open houses with family today, and seeing that those "facilities" are much the way I want MINE to be, what's the story here? At one place, there were reporters. I wanted to stop and get my story out there, to the public, but got to wondering if that would've been at all the right way to go. I decided it wasn't; this weekend and its events are a major positive for us all and I didn't want to muddy it up with any kind of negativity. But I think I may just get the media involved at some point. Soon.

Thanks in advance.
- Tim

Michael Greer

03-29-2015, 11:31 AM

I've read your post from time to time, and it looks to me like there's some inter-personal problem going on that's not going to go away. Honest to God, throw in the towel and move to another town or county. Life is too short to try endlessly to please some a**hole who's got his mind made up already.

Sugarmaker

03-29-2015, 03:30 PM

Tim,
Glad you got to some open-houses. Did not help your situation. Moving doesn't sound like the right thing, but maybe moving your future business might be just the ticket? Your between a rock and a hard spot. Law suits are never good. Its not a win win event.
Wishing you the best in your future maple business.
Regards,
Chris

DrTimPerkins

03-30-2015, 11:29 AM

Law suits are never good. Its not a win win event.

Mostly true. In many cases those with deeper pockets are the eventual winners. Very frequently the fight goes on until one or both sides have spent enough money so they simply settle for something very reasonable. In that case the only winners are the lawyers.

saphound

04-01-2015, 04:18 PM

Man oh man *shakin my head*. I just read all 13 pages. Unfreakinbelieveable. Thought for sure there'd be a happy ending to this story by page 13. I don't know ya Tim but I'd like to. I hope you don't give in to those ba$tards, but wouldn't blame you if you did either. I've been boiling in one of these for now: http://www.kingcanopy.com/content/garages.asp
..mine's 10x20. At least you could make some syrup if this isn't resolved by next spring. God bless and keep us posted.

Btw..whatever happened to the cats?

Clarkfield Farms

04-02-2015, 10:22 AM

A local Chinese restaurant chain bought 'em all.

OOPS!! That was supposed to be posted yesterday! I forgot it's April 2nd... :D

They were in poor health, local vet offered to put them all down free of charge. I helped to live-trap the ones that were too skittish to be easily caught. It took several trips, I assisted, and even though I didn't like the situation from any angle it was still very - well, disconcerting to say the least to see them die at the vet's. The process was minimally painful but having been sequestered in that barn for most of their lives, if not all their life for some, it was a terrifying experience for them. Kind of heart-wrenching. It can't help but change your outlook on the things you once-upon-a-time could never have seen that way. It'll be - what, coming up on two years now? I'm not sure, things kind of blur once they're behind you. Even this whole fiasco will one day be just a footnote, a far cry from the pre-eminent position that it now holds. And of course, that just goes to prove that it's all about my attitude regarding it and not that it has any intrinsic power. Like everyone else I have a ton of other more important issues to deal with; there's a great, little, book IIRC the title is, "The Tyranny of the Urgent," and among other things it discusses differentiating between what's important and what's urgent. Most everything can be a blend of both, and - well, this gets under my skin too much, too often, and I should just get a coffee or take a walk instead of posting about it here. Other than good advice, it's like chewing gum: it gives me something to sink my teeth into and gnaw on, but I get nothing out of it.

Thanks for putting up with the rants.

- Tim

saphound

04-02-2015, 02:38 PM

You've got a gift with words, Tim...you oughtta be a writer. Yeah, I like all animals..too bad about the cats, but that wasn't a very good situation for them...or you either. You thinkin about using the barn now instead of building?

Clarkfield Farms

04-04-2015, 10:47 AM

lol, I think I'll keep fire-related things away from the barn since The Town has, as I've mentioned, told me that if the barn is ever destroyed they won't let me rebuild. ANYthing.

meh... the issue isn't just about a sugar house, anyhow. Sic semper tyrannis... thus always with tyrants.

Daveg

04-12-2015, 02:59 PM

The Town of Paris has 114 pages in their codes book. I think I read under section 97 (Special Use Review Citeria) there is language that will allow you to go forward with your plan. I don't see anything objectionable in their criteria.
Your code enforcement officer said: "even if you did live there, we only allow one accessory structure and the barn that's there constitutes the one structure, and as I said it's not even there legally now" is not correct. The barn is there legally, according to the Code. Given that she made an incorrect statement I wouldn't be surprised if she were wrong about others. For example, she said "we only allow one accessory structure", but section 16 B., on page 13, states:
"B. Number of Accessory Structures
There shall be not more than two (2) accessory buildings or structures to the residential lot, except that an agricultural operation shall not be subject to such provisions."
So you see, she's kind, but not totally informed.
And if the barn burned down it COULD be rebuilt, just 25' further back. It's in the Code.

Clarkfield Farms

04-13-2015, 10:03 AM

Right, Dave, but the missing link is that "accessory building" implies that such buildings are "subordinate" to the "primary building," or in their interpretation, my primary residence. It can't even be a dwelling that I rent out, I have to live there. At least, that's what I've been told several times. And since there is no such building, then there's nothing to build "to the rear of," and nothing to be "subordinate to." That verbiage and its interpretation sum up the essence of the entire issue.

I'm not taking issue with anything you've pointed out, of course; you're right. The issue is their interpretation and application of their own regulations. Regarding the "illegal" status of the structure, she did admit (I'm not sure if I've written this before) that it's been long grandfathered in which prohibits them from demanding its removal, but THAT IS ALL. Although the first victory (thanks to the State Ag Protection Unit's intervention near the beginning) was that the Town could not forbid me making "substantial repairs" (the asphalt shingle roof, maybe a 25-year warranty, was put on in 1978 or 1979 and last summer I installed a metal roof), I was told as a warning that the Town would be checking to see if I ADDED anything, ANYTHING, including but not limited to windows and/or doors. Repairs, yes; additions, NO. And not just changing the footprint, as you'd expect, but ANYTHING. Fortunately, it had gutters before. They were removed when the roofing work was being done, and I'll be installing new gutters this year.

Ironically, there are a few things that have developed that may be moving this whole charade in - well, not so much a different direction but possibly on an entirely different road. A little late for this season, though.

I know I opened Pandora's Box when I simply sought to be a good little citizen and make sure that everything I planned to do would be 100% Kosher beforehand, just so that this very problem would NOT happen... silly me. The bottom line is that their vision for the future of The Town is to be a bedroom community; a 50-acre parcel with a lone, non-residential structure on it would be paying $1,600/year in real estate taxes. That same land as a subdivision would provide more than 50 residential lots, but with variances as many as 70 or more lots, each with a residence (the size, design, and construction of which are also regulated), would generate approximately $4,250/year in real estate taxes. EACH. So, instead of tax revenues amounting to $1,600 from that one parcel of land, they'd now have at least $212,500 in tax revenue from that same acreage. Starting to see their point? Oh, of course there'd be more expense involved, such as road maintenance (including plowing, sanding/salting, but not construction; the developer is responsible for building all roadways to Town specs, and then upon completion and final inspection "dedicating" the road to the Town, gratis). But hey, will they actually incur costs of $210,900 per year in roadway maintenance? Of course not.

As always, follow the money.

Clarkfield Farms

04-13-2015, 10:16 AM

Also, I know that I've taken a few (many) jabs offline by members assuming that - well, fill-in-the-blank about this problem and my involvement with it. But here's something to consider: I'm not alone. Since this all began, as I think I've pointed out at least once before, two additional would-be producers have been denied for the very same reasons - they don't live there. I don't know if they're members here, but I haven't noticed any posts or comments from them. I can only guess the reason(s), but my guess is that they're probably a lot - LOT!!! - smarter than me and are staying under the Town's radar. I opened my mouth, inadvertently entered the MMA ring, and am getting my - butt? - kicked by the pro's. "Here Comes The Boom" style, but I'm no Kevin James and this isn't about a good cause and it's real life, not a movie. :D I know that if this was one of their stories and I was one of them, I wouldn't be doing a THING to bring that brick ____house down upon my head.

Not alone, but also no one's come alongside. I'm not privy to the processes they're using, my only connection to them would be through the State contacts. But I'd think if they'd had any sort of breakthrough(s), I'd know by now.

Cedar Eater

04-13-2015, 10:49 AM

Sounds like you're in a position to negotiate for a variance. You could offer to subdivide and put some percentage of the property on the market for development in exchange for all the variance/rezoning you need to get the building you want. They know you're stubborn and will sit on the land forever, just to make a point, if they won't negotiate. If the potential for taxes for the town is that high, then you could demand a very high price for the land, too high to get any takers. If you do get a taker at a ridiculously inflated price, make sure the developers get the least useful land and you keep the best and smile all the way to the bank.

Clarkfield Farms

04-13-2015, 11:38 AM

Cedar Eater, um, ...no. :D There's nothing to negotiate. And it isn't about being "stubborn," I've loved that land since I was a kid. It means a lot to me. It has a rich history that's long been part of me. One of the reasons it was sold to us instead of other interested parties was for the reason that I never want to see it turned into a subdivision.

Something that I left out in my previous two statements is that, although it's written that Ag District parcels are not impacted by the accessory building limitations including number of said buildings and the need for a primary residence ("principle building"), I have written before about the fact that they're denying me "farm status" because I rent part of the land to a small-grain farmer who IS recognized by the Town as "the farmer." And since I don't meet the Town's minimum 2-year cumulative "agricultural activity gross sales," there's no way I'll be recognized as, "the farmer." Odd...

That's all the negative side of it. I hope to soon present some of the positives. :)

saphound

04-13-2015, 12:16 PM

I think I read earlier that your renter was allowed to build a shed or something on it. Couldn't he be the builder again? With your money, of course..and then let you use it? Also, what happens to his building if he decides not to rent anymore? Does it get to stay?

Clarkfield Farms

04-13-2015, 01:37 PM

lol... I don't know, I'll ask about that. :)

But, as I mentioned, hopefully a different road, scenery, tune, vehicle, who knows. ;)

Cedar Eater

04-13-2015, 03:44 PM

maplestudent

04-13-2015, 04:26 PM

I just wanted to say that I wish you well on all the challenges you face.

Clarkfield Farms

04-23-2015, 09:44 PM

HAH! Well, I'm boiling.

I know most around here have shut down but my trees are still running, clear and sweet. I did have to dump sap a couple of times, Steve (Bucket Head), since you had to stop picking up sap when you shut down. First time was about 260 gallons, then about 190 gallons. I had some delays while getting things ready - I bought an old Magic Chef electric oven/range and then had to wire the barn for it. My 24X30X8" deep copper pan is a perfect fit for the stovetop, no back panel to get in the way. Knobs are all up front. I think only 3 burners are able to go to "HI" but it's still something. I have the setup situated between the overhead door and the person (?) door, with the windows open and the doors partly open the steam goes out quite well.

Thing is, it never got to full boil because of the high winds and crazy snow we had coming down today. To be fair, I didn't get to start "boiling" until around 4PM and had to stop by 5:45. The barn never got above 33*F. The pan can hold about 25 gallons, full, but I'm keeping only about 3" (about 9 gallons) of sap in it. Even though it never got to a boil, it still evaporated about 1-3/4" (about 5-1/2 gallons as near as I can figure) in those 105 minutes. Meh, not so great an evap rate BUT I'M BOILING AND THEY CAN'T STOP ME!!! BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!

Yesterday after dumping sap I brought the 275-gallon caged tote home to clean and sanitize it, ran it up again late last night. I only had about 30 gallons in it this afternoon. But, there are only 44 taps on that line, 5/16" natural vacuum. I filtered today's sap and put what didn't go in the pan into clean, sanitized tanks. I can't get to it again until tomorrow, but it should stay cold in the barn. I hope to have a bit more tomorrow, and finish what's there tomorrow. According to the hi-lo thermometer it never got above 34* today, so flow was reduced to about a 1/8" stream or less.

BUT I'M BOILING AND THEY CAN'T STOP ME!!! :D

Yeah, please don't remind me how inefficient electric is. Please don't tell me what a lousy evaporation rate I'm getting. I don't know you well enough to dislike you enough to hurt you enough NO - I meant, um, I don't care because I'M BOILING AND THERE'S NOT A THING THEY CAN DO TO STOP ME AND IT FEEEEEELS GRRRRRRRREAT!!!! :D

And no, this isn't the "different positive direction" news I referenced earlier. That's still hush-hush for now. BUT I'M - ok, you get it. :)

Anyways, there's the positive twist I guess.
- Tim