RO question and opinions

[PerryFamily]

1) when a RO machine advertises a certain GPH rate is it: processes say 600 GPH of raw sap , or does it make 600 GPH of concentrate? Or are they one in the same?

2) what would a hobby RO ( 300 GPH +/- ) concentrate sap to in a single pass? say the sap was 2% and you had a 1000 gallons of it, what would be the end yield / sugar be

3) when comparing say a CDL Hobby RO ( 300 GPH ) for $6500 to a Water Guy HP 5000 (250-350 GPH ) for $4955 is there a significant enough difference to spend the additional $1500 for the CDL? Are there any parts better on one versus the other? Is the customer service better for either?

4) At what point would a RO be a must? I run a 2x6 patriot that is like 40gph. If everything goes well should have 750 taps on tubing next year but always looking to expand.

Any info or opinion is greatly aprechiated

JMP

[500592]

The gph I how many gallon of sap goes in it isn't concentrate he waterguy ros don't have a recic pump so you have to run I through twice o get it up to 8% were a real maple ro will bring it up to 8% in one pass not saying that I a b ro but that's why it is more expensive I know many people run 2x6 with an ro that do over a thousand so unless you have a lot of time to boil you should get an ro next year you would probably want at least a 150gph ro

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

The GPH is a theoretical number of the gallons per hour of raw sap a machine will process. In actuality it may be more or less depending on sap temperature, pressure used, how long it has been processing, type of membrane, etc

2) what would a hobby RO ( 300 GPH +/- ) concentrate sap to in a single pass? say the sap was 2% and you had a 1000 gallons of it, what would be the end yield / sugar be

A maple RO should easily squeeze 2% sap to 8% in a single pass. Should end up with about 250 gallons of 8% concentrate.

3) when comparing say a CDL Hobby RO ( 300 GPH ) for $6500 to a Water Guy HP 5000 (250-350 GPH ) for $4955 is there a significant enough difference to spend the additional $1500 for the CDL? Are there any parts better on one versus the other? Is the customer service better for either?

I don't know much about the water guys RO so really can't comment.

4) At what point would a RO be a must? I run a 2x6 patriot that is like 40gph. If everything goes well should have 750 taps on tubing next year but always looking to expand.

With 750 taps, you won't regret getting one this year. Once you use an RO you won't want to boil raw sap again!

[PerryFamily]

thanks for the responses. In the past I have bought on price alone. Needless to say it has bit me in the A$$ a few times. I am leaning towards looking for a used maple specific RO. The price for Water Guy is enticing but I have also heard that the customer service and instructions a poor.

Are there any RO units to stay away from? What would be important questions to ask when looking at a used one?

Thanks

JMP

[maple flats]

I'd suggest Ray Gingerich RO's. I had his 250 rated RO this season and the lowest flow I got was 240 gph with cold sap. One day with warmer sap I got about 270 gph. I have Ray's gas powered unit, but he also makes electric ones. Last year his prices were $2700 (125 gph) $3200 (250 gph), 4700 (375 gph) and 5200 (500 GPH). These were for honda driven RO's, I did not get the electric prices but they likely will be close but slightly lower is my guess.
My RO ran flawlessly all season and I concentrated to 8%. One day only I recirculated and got up to 18% but had to clean the RO because it slowed way down as it got to 18%. In the future I think I will max at 12-14%. 8% is the highest it will go in 1 pass.

[Russell Lampron]

thanks for the responses. In the past I have bought on price alone. Needless to say it has bit me in the A$$ a few times. I am leaning towards looking for a used maple specific RO. The price for Water Guy is enticing but I have also heard that the customer service and instructions a poor.


Are there any RO units to stay away from? What would be important questions to ask when looking at a used one?

Thanks

JMP

Stay away from any RO that doesn't have recirc. When looking at a used one that is the most important question.


I'd suggest Ray Gingerich RO's. I had his 250 rated RO this season and the lowest flow I got was 240 gph with cold sap. One day with warmer sap I got about 270 gph. I have Ray's gas powered unit, but he also makes electric ones. Last year his prices were $2700 (125 gph) $3200 (250 gph), 4700 (375 gph) and 5200 (500 GPH). These were for honda driven RO's, I did not get the electric prices but they likely will be close but slightly lower is my guess.
My RO ran flawlessly all season and I concentrated to 8%. One day only I recirculated and got up to 18% but had to clean the RO because it slowed way down as it got to 18%. In the future I think I will max at 12-14%. 8% is the highest it will go in 1 pass.

It was fun boiling that 18% wasn't it Dave. My evaporator runs a lot smoother at 18% and higher than it does at lower concentration percentages.

[PerryFamily]

The Gingrich units sound pretty decent for the money. Does anyone know how to get info on these units?

with a little searching maybe I can find a used unit this summer from someone upgrading or going bigger.

I noticed that some of the smaller units have rinse tanks built into the unit. Is the amount of rinse water needed directly related to the amount of sap as well as sap quality put through the machine? I am curious how much storage for permeate and raw sap storage I would need? I try to plan things out before hand, you never know when a deal on some tanks comes up.

Thanks

JMP

[wiam]

The tank built in is probably a wash tank. Minimum permeate storage should be equal to rated capacity of machine. More is better. I have about 500 gallons of permeate storage.

[PerryFamily]

Any idea where Gingrich is located ? I am located in Westminster, VT hopefully it can be a weekend trip if necessary.

Being each unit is built individually, what is the lead time to order? I was thinking about purchasing late this summer.

Thanks
JMP

[mapleack]

Just saw Bascom has a used lapierre 125 for 5k. That and a new NF270 membrane would likely out perform the gingerich or water guy 250's and you'd have better resale value when you needed a bigger one.

[PerryFamily]

Thanks for all the responses. I was wondering about resale myself. But whats the reasoning on a 125 out performing a 250 ? Just curious. That is one thing about going with a large big name RO, all three CDL LAPIERRE and LEADER are only 4 hrs from me. It appears Gingrich is 9.5 hrs. Service is a biggie and buying "local" is the best way to get it in my opinion.

[Bucket Head]

Two seasons ago I bought a twenty year old Airablo 250 unit. Its a made-for-maple unit, not a modified water-use one. I almost built one, but it would have had a limited range, similiar to the limits you have read about. Buying the maple unit was the best decision, hands down. This one will put out 8-10% sap on a single pass for hours on end, without trouble. It will probably do more but my hydrometer only goes to ten! It needed a little work when I got it, but it has worked flawlessly since its first drop of concentrate here. See what you can find used. It would be quite a savings over new, and the sap won't care what the age of the machine is! I'm not the kind of guy that likes to tell people how to spend their money, but you'll be well served by spending a little more for a machine that will both improve boiling time now and allow for expansion down the road. Your location, service and resale value plays into the decision too. Mines not going anywhere soon, but I could sell it tommorow if I wanted without any problem and be money ahead.

[mapleack]

The used Lapierre I pointed out would have a recirculation pump built into the membrane housing, whereas the gingerich and waterguy units do not. It might start out at a lower flow rate, but the recirculation would likely keep the flow rate higher for a longer period of time due to less fouling of the membranes. You could also put a higher flow membrane in the machine and possibly exceed the performance of the other units.

[PerryFamily]

I think I will talk to all the manufacturers at the open houses on the 28th. Maybe they have a used unit coming in or could shed some light on the large manufacturer VS the independent guys product. I think I know what they will say though

[mapleack]

Another thing to look at is automation. IMO having low pressure and high temperature cut out switches is essential and I don't know that the lower priced units have them. When my RO runs out of sap it shuts down on it's own. When I run the wash cycle I go home, some time over night it reaches high temp and shuts down. The next morning I stop on my way to work, start the rinse cycle and leave. When it runs out of permeate it shuts down. An RO without automation simply would not work for my time schedule. Consider whether or not that's a concern for how you run your operation.

[PerryFamily]

Thats a great point Andy on the automation. I have not even considered that. I am making syrup for a few reasons but mostly to take up that mud season time. I do excavating in the summer and plow snow ( not this yr of course ) in the winter. The sugaring season is in a time where there is very little going on for me so time or schedule really is not a huge factor. On the other hand babysitting an evaporator for hours and then babysitting a RO while it washes is not a great use of time either. The automation, recirc pump ( or not) plus overhead probably makes up the difference in price ? I had better make a list before I talk to people about their product. I hate to buy a machine for half the price only to find that it is half the machine or half the features.