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markcasper
03-28-2012, 12:58 AM
This is a pretty ridiculous situation, but that is what this site is for.

I am starting work on retubing my big woods. I originally had approx. 600 taps on vacuum divided in half, and going to, two seperate locations with a releaser at each tank. The first tank had about 300 taps and will remain the same except there will be a wet/dry and there will be more mainline. There is a 600 gallon tank located there.

Further to the east, there was 300 taps there before which will be joined with at least 400 more. Tank size undetermined at this time. I have plans to put a big releaser in that spot and run the wet/dry's out from that spot. There is an additional 2-300 taps over the hill, which if I ever did them, would have to be on a seperate system and then pump the stuff back over.

There is at least 1000 taps with ease, and quite possibly up to 1500 depending on how many I can get from "across the fences". The BAD situation is all of this is at least 1500 - 2200 feet from the road to the tanks. Between the road and the tanks is active cropland. My folks own all of it, so that is the good part. Up until last year, it was nothing to get 800-1200 gallons a day (3 trips) out of the existing 600 taps. I am sick of the mud, tearing hay fields up, risking getting stuck, time consuming as heck...etc. I have long been thinking of getting that sap to the road. Ideally an underground line is what is needed, but am not ready for this yet.

There is very little slope from the road, but there is a natural water run and it is quite noticeable. There is maybe an 6-10% slope from each of the tank locations (300 feet, 100 feet respectively) to the "main" natural drainage run that goes all the way to the road. This water run averages MAYBE 1/2 % slope across the first 40 acres and up to 2% on the other 40. If there will be 2,000 gallons a day, there is NO WAY I am hauling that all out 400 gallons at a time. I was thinking,....running 3/4" white mainline from the road all the way to the tanks and laying flat on the ground the whole span. There will be one T in it to go for the north tank. I was thinking of having a vacuum pump and releaser down at the road to help move the sap across and get it up into the cheese vat I am thinking of setting there. At best there is 20-25 feet of total drop from the road to the tanks, and I am talking over 2000 feet, (Hardly noticeable). I AM NOT SETTING UP STAKES and WIRE EVERY YEAR!

I am aware of freezing up problems...at the same time, there will be tanks at the woods to hold sap for situations when the ground lines do become frozen. I am leery of going to bigger than 3/4" because that will take longer to unthaw, during slow runs, the sap will sit there in the field line, at the same time its alot easier to roll up than 1" at the end. Maybe 3/4" is not enough, thats why i am posting. I do not want to go with anything other than white due to the fact this is going to be laying out in the full sun. Any advice or changes are appreciated!! or completely different ideas.

maple flats
03-28-2012, 06:12 AM
I have a similar situation, but it is not on the ground. At one bush I go across a friendle neighbor for 800' to the road. The line is 1" and I have no tank at the road. I must pump as I want the sap. The lines froze often and took sometimes 36 hrs after a hard freeze to thaw but I never overflowed at tank. Mine does however run thru a woods and lots of shade, but it worked. I think you should be good since you will have a tank and vac at the road. When the woods start running you should get flow soon after in the hose (unless it is buried under 2' of snow). Because of the snow I'd run posts in the field but no wire.

driske
03-28-2012, 06:14 AM
Mark,
You state you are not ready for an under ground line. Yet the situation you describe is untenable. Get quotes from at least 3 different contractors and see what the project might cost. Go with at least 1 1/4" diameter line. Preferably a single length on a spool....no splices.
Your time is your most valuable asset as a sugarmaker. Go directly to a long term solution. Skip the sidewise steps in the middle and in the long run your pocket book will thank you for it.

Vermonner
03-28-2012, 08:09 AM
With that gentle slope across the field would it be feasible to actively pump your sap across (I think a "pulling" situation would be more efficient downhill)? It would probably be additional pump and tank or maybe just a pump depending on setup, but you could have your carrier line empty by pumping rather than sitting around freezing. It might be worth the peace of mind if it can be done without too much headache. Just one thought.

RollinsOrchards
03-28-2012, 08:39 AM
Underground across a farm field is a lot easier than through the woods. There must be some outfits that do field drainage tile with either a trencher that looks like a big chain saw or pipe layer behind a dozer or farm tractor. Those pipe layers are slick where they just slice through the ground and leave the pipe behind. Perhaps you could rent one to use behind your crawler.

Consider if your parents or neighbors need any field drain tile laid at the same time. Bigger projects can attract a better offer perhaps. Or rent the equipment and get paid to use it for someone else to get your own use for free.

Now while you are at it, is there any advantage to putting two lines, wet and dry, and running all your vacuum out where there is electricity? How far is it all the way to the sugarhouse? 2500 feet to the road is nice but 3500 feet direct to the sugarhouse would make your life a lot easier. I personally can't wait for the day when I get everything on vacuum pipeline, and can light the fire as it starts running for the day, putting the freshest sap right into the evaporator, but thats a long way off for me.

mountainvan
03-28-2012, 10:56 AM
I have somewhat the same thing. I just put in steel fence posts and hang the mainline from there. a little more time putting up and taking down, but when there is 3 ft of snow I don't have to dig it out.

Amber Gold
03-28-2012, 11:26 AM
My thought, do it right the first time and it'll save you time during the season. I think laying on the ground is just going to be full of freezing issues. Time is money during maple season and you need to minimize as many issues as you can.

I would go with RollinsOrchards idea and use a Ditchwitch type of machine (I have no experience with field drain tiles). I used to install residential irrigation systems and these machines are great for installing poly pipe underground. The one we used only had a blade deep enough to bury the pipe ~18", but I'm sure you can rent a bigger one which will go down 4' to get below the frost...although being in a field, maybe you want to go deeper because of a deeper frost??. Bury the pipe, then install a deep well pump w/ a generator in the woods tank...start the gen. with a float switch so it shuts off when the tank's empty.

Is it 2000' of field crossing? If it's say only 500', another option, would be to install heavy duty metal fence posts every 25' across the field and run that section of mainline with no wire. It wouldn't take too long to hammer in the fence posts every fall when the ground's not frozen and run the mainline then. For the 2013 season, I'm going to cross 250-300' of field to get another 100 taps that I can't get now.

I agree, for that volume of sap and the distance, you'd need at least a 1" mainline, but a 1.25" would be better. Friction loss of 2000' of 3/4" pipe would be significant.

My 2 cents.

markcasper
03-30-2012, 12:05 AM
Mark,
You state you are not ready for an under ground line. Yet the situation you describe is untenable. Get quotes from at least 3 different contractors and see what the project might cost. Go with at least 1 1/4" diameter line. Preferably a single length on a spool....no splices.
Your time is your most valuable asset as a sugarmaker. Go directly to a long term solution. Skip the sidewise steps in the middle and in the long run your pocket book will thank you for it.

Thanks guys for all of your thoughts. I have decided.....I contacted Grossman to come out and take a look at this situation. I think I am going to go with an underground line right off the bat, don't know where I'll get the money yet, but I will save alot by just getting black pipe. The sap will be alot cooler, and no touching or rolling mainline up. There is too many taps involved to be taking chances.

On a different note, I have another woods of my uncles where I'd like to tap the north side. I am already tapping the south side. I can run a vacuum line for a releaser off my existing pump. I am only talking 120, 150 taps max. I have another bad situation, 1200 feet of field to cross before reaching the road. I was going to work at it this season, hoping to tap, well the season ended early as we all know. I set up a small dump tank where the releaser was to be, put 30 gallons of water in it and then strung 1,000 feet of 5/16 down the 1% grade to the road.

I sat with a gallon jug at the end and it took 7 minutes to fill, or about 8 gallons an hour flow rate, not big enough. Question before next year.......will a 1/2" work and does any body know what the flow rate will be on 1/2", when you already know what the flow rate is on 5/16"??

I do not want to go any bigger if I don't have to because of north side #1 and longer line freeze up times laying on the ground #2. Just to note, I will probably move a 200 gallon bulk tank to the releaser spot, to be able to hold sap for when the field line is froze.

markcasper
03-30-2012, 12:09 AM
My thought, do it right the first time and it'll save you time during the season. I think laying on the ground is just going to be full of freezing issues. Time is money during maple season and you need to minimize as many issues as you can.. Good advice!

In regard to under ground sap line, how does one keep the area where it enters and exits the ground free, and from freezing? without having a dug out manhole? looking for easiness.

Amber Gold
03-30-2012, 08:41 AM
Good question...let me think about it.

Amber Gold
04-02-2012, 12:06 PM
Mark,

Here's my thoughts on your comment about entering/exiting the ground and how to deal with freezing. For one, have enough pitch on this section of the line to make sure no sap will freeze there...run it at 6% or something then when you get underground you can run it at 2%. Since you're only using this as a pump line, these two sections of line should drain completely and are mostly being used when temps are above freezing. As a safety backup, I'd run 50' of heat tape on each end where it enters/exits the ground. If you do have a problem with the pump line, it will likely be here. You can buy portable generators small enough to easily carry around, but should have enough juice to run some heat tape. We have this type of generator on the fire dept. If you do have a problem, you should be able to get it thawed out enough to get some flow through the pipe when under pressure. As some sap starts to move through, it'll thaw out any remaining ice pretty quickly. Good luck

Revi
04-02-2012, 02:09 PM
Here's an enormous operation up in New Brunswick where they pump the sap a mile or two underground. It is sugaring on a gigantic scale. 120,000 taps or so. The sap goes 3 miles over 2 rivers and ends up at the sugarhouse. Pretty cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BD3QiedrRA&feature=related