Strive for 5

[argohauler]

In that rule for vacuum, how long or what is the ideal length that you want your laterals? Would you want more mains running parallel or T mains coming off the main, main?

Also what is too long for a main line to be? Never run vac at all, but thinking.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

It's all about getting 25" of vacuum at the tap -- keep that in mind as you figure things out. We just switched from 2,300 buckets to vacuum this year and as we pulled our taps over the last two days a lot of things jelled. First, you can run a lat 100' if you have a lot of slope, We kept ours to a max of 5 but some longer lats without much slope were plugged with sap. we will shorten those to no more than 50' this summer. We will also get rid of all double saddles and go to singles (you can watch them not run). Due to $ and time we didn't get the upper dry line run on about half of our bush -- will fix that this summer also as you can tell the difference at the tap. We ended some of our main's about 100' from the end of the woods (mistake) they will be extended also to shorten the lats. We will also add some additional main lines between two existing ones to shorten the lats, all our mains are 1" (no 3/4") and most have less than 200 taps on them -- that did work well.

We were only tapped 17 days and ended with 4.5 taps per gallon, would likke to cut that in half for next year.

Good luck!

[PerryW]

so I'm guessing nobody uses the 6-way connecters for vacuum (instead of the saddles?)

[argohauler]

I was going to ask that question as well. I use 6 way and 3 way stars in my gravity set up. Are they bad for vacuum? There are a lot of places where I can put five or 6 lateral runs out from one place and with the strive for 5 that will mean way more manifolds. When I setup my gravity I went by my uncles who also is gravity. At that time in 88 and 89 he was told to strive for 10 taps per lateral.

I was also thinking you can use up a lot of rolls of lateral tubing with long lats.

If you have a lot of mains or T's on mains how much will the vacuum be reduced?

[Bruce L]

We use the 6 way,4 way and 3 way stars on our system,however when bruce from Leader was here last summer he kind of suggested that was not the best set-up.He is coming sometime before open houses to walk through our set-up for suggesting improvements

[sapman]

One real nice (and essential) feature of the single entry fitting is the loop you make on the mainline wire. Helps to find which lines have vacuum leaks. From my experience, I wouldn't set it up any other way.

[sjdoyon]

If you can buy all your equipment from Leader, they will come out and advise you. Our dry/wet lines are 2 inches and one inch mainlines are no longer than 1,000 feet (no 3/4). You start to drop pressure if you go longer. We average around 300 trees per one inch line and use the strive for five guidance. We probably average 3.5 trees per line. We do have a few 5/16 lateral lines that are closer to 100 feet but none longer since our grade is 25-30%. 4.5 taper per gallon and higher is what you should strive for. We went with a dealer who has 10,000 taps and his long term average is 5.3 per tap. We consistently are getting 26lbs of pressure on the system. Spend your money setting up your sugarbush. You'll end up using a lot more tubing/saddles/etc but you'll make it up in production.


It's all about getting 25" of vacuum at the tap -- keep that in mind as you figure things out. We just switched from 2,300 buckets to vacuum this year and as we pulled our taps over the last two days a lot of things jelled. First, you can run a lat 100' if you have a lot of slope, We kept ours to a max of 5 but some longer lats without much slope were plugged with sap. we will shorten those to no more than 50' this summer. We will also get rid of all double saddles and go to singles (you can watch them not run). Due to $ and time we didn't get the upper dry line run on about half of our bush -- will fix that this summer also as you can tell the difference at the tap. We ended some of our main's about 100' from the end of the woods (mistake) they will be extended also to shorten the lats. We will also add some additional main lines between two existing ones to shorten the lats, all our mains are 1" (no 3/4") and most have less than 200 taps on them -- that did work well.

We were only tapped 17 days and ended with 4.5 taps per gallon, would likke to cut that in half for next year.

Good luck!

[PerryW]

Regarding using TEE's in the mainline, I too had the same question. Here are two possible way to run the mainline in a typical bush. Is is better to use Mainline TEE's and create several branch lines (Example A) Or use a single mainline and snake back and forth (Example B) ?

5691

(Sorry for the HIJACK, but I think we are asking the same questions.)

[sjdoyon]

We set up three sugarbushes on our 209 acre lot using diagram A. We also put shut-off valves on each branch line and pressure gauges so we can isolate problems and continue producing. We have 32 branch lines (1inch tubing). Worked well for us since our grade is around 25%.


Regarding using TEE's in the mainline, I too had the same question. Here are two possible way to run the mainline in a typical bush. Is is better to use Mainline TEE's and create several branch lines (Example A) Or use a single mainline and snake back and forth (Example B) ?

5691

(Sorry for the HIJACK, but I think we are asking the same questions.)

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Avoid the stars for entry. You are trying to put too much sap (and vacuum) through too small a hole and it will cause turbulence. You want a smooth, steady flow of sap. Set up a main "trunk line" and run lots of main lines off of that. Connect to trunk line with Y's not T's to avoid turbulence. Use a dry line with your trunk line. Each side main should be valved where it enters the trunk to assist in leak patrol. I average about 3 taps on a lateral and try to keep all laterals under 30 feet. Do I always follow these rules? Heck no, there are always some places that the only way to get the trees is by breaking them but you are trying to maintain high vacuum at the tree so don't think you are saving money by using smaller lines or less fittings. Do it right the first time and it will pay you back!!!!! Now my plans for this year are to go back and fix some of the stuff where I "saved" money:emb:

[Hop Kiln Road]

This year I replaced most of my laterals in a 60 tap gravity bush with 1/2" and cut the number of taps per lateral from 12 to 4 and got a 20% increase over the other bushes, which have been historically pretty close. And Perry you're going to like this....For next year I have two twenty tap lines that I'm to segregate and redo with ONLY 1/2" line, no tubing, and use stainless taps. So this system will be completely vented. I want to see if I can get bucket production out of a gravity system. Bruce

[PerryW]

Use a dry line with your trunk line.

How many taps would you put on a mainline before figuring you needed to go with a wet line/dry line vacuum system? If you had only 400-500 taps total on a steep slope, would you bother with Dry Line?

I have access to 1" 100PSI black plastic waterpipe real cheap? DO you still use that?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I use the black plastic. I would use a dry line if there were 4-500 taps. Remember it is all about getting vacuum to the tree and as the line fills with sap, the space for vacuum transfer diminishes. I might go with a single main and use 1 and 1/4, but I would prefer the 2 line system.

[PerryW]

I use the black plastic.

Good because I just dumped off over 2000' of 1" and 3/4" at the sugarbush I got cheap. Only used once to pipe waste oil to an underground tank. just kidding, used for a temporary waterline running town water to a couple houses last summer.

Here's my current 18 acre sugarbush w/ Mainlines in RED. All 3/4" BLack Plastic installed in 1989. 300 taps on the left hand pipe, 200 taps on the middle pipe and 100 taps on the right hand pipe. Laterals go hundreds of feet from the mainline to the upper property line.

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[Brent]

We've been on vac for 3 years and have come to think the finding leaks and tightening up the system is VERY important.

One of the hardest leaks to detect is at the saddle fitting on the mainline. This summer we are going to be doing some re-running
and when I put the saddles on, I'm going to drill them in from the BOTTOM UP, so they will make a bubble stream on the ones that leak.
The traditional entry at about the 2:00 o'clock position does not make a bubble stream.

[argohauler]

So you guys like to "Y" a feeder main onto the Trunk line. It looks like I could have a lot of Y's.

So I was looking at the end of where the Trunk line would go and there are 5 laterals that will come off the end. With these new fandangled cut in manifolds, how far apart would you install them. I hear that they should all be singles for proper vacuum.

[argohauler]

I also would like to know from you guys that tap the 8" trees with health spiles, what is the tree diameter of a 2 tap tree and so on. The NAMSPM says after 15 inches in diameter to tap 2 taps. Or do you stick to the guideline on that?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I also would like to know from you guys that tap the 8" trees with health spiles, what is the tree diameter of a 2 tap tree and so on. The NAMSPM says after 15 inches in diameter to tap 2 taps. Or do you stick to the guideline on that?

I only go to 2 taps when I can't reach around the tree and have my hands touch. About 20 inch diameter. Research showed about a 65% increase in sap per tree on 19" trees with 2 taps. 16" trees only showed a 45% increase.

[ennismaple]

So you guys like to "Y" a feeder main onto the Trunk line. It looks like I could have a lot of Y's.

So I was looking at the end of where the Trunk line would go and there are 5 laterals that will come off the end. With these new fandangled cut in manifolds, how far apart would you install them. I hear that they should all be singles for proper vacuum.

We have single saddle manifolds 12" apart and they function fine.

[argohauler]

How do the nipples hold up when you come off at different angles?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

use a hook connector or a slip hook connector and attach your lateral to the wire holding the mainline. Then loop from there to the saddle. No stress on the nipple as it would cause a leak.

[brookledge]

I feel the reason the multi number manifolds are not used as much isbecause you need to run so much more mainline then previously. I can remember when 5/16 laterals were 100's of feet long with tons of taps on them and running many of them to one location was the norm, so having 4 or 6 laterals coming to gether in one location happened alot
Also I prefer to use hollow core nylon rope at the mainline instead of a hook conector. The lateral can be tightened up at any time with the hollow core nylon whereas the hook conector can't
Keith

[markcasper]

ok i am i missing the point here?....how are you guys using a y at the manifold of a wet/dry?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Also I prefer to use hollow core nylon rope at the mainline instead of a hook conector. The lateral can be tightened up at any time with the hollow core nylon whereas the hook conector can't
Keith[/QUOTE]

That is why I use the slip hook connectors, they can be tightened at any time.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

The trunk wet "Y's" to the main and the trunk dry "T's" into a loop about 3 to 4 feet high that goes into the main (either with a "T" or a "Y") about 6 or 8 feet from the "Y". Put a valve and a vacuum gage after the point where the dry joins the main.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

ok i am i missing the point here?....how are you guys using a y at the manifold of a wet/dry?

I don't use a manifold. Look at Jason Grossman's pics of his wet/dry set up. Simple, quick and works well.

[markcasper]

Is there a spot to view some pics, sounds like alot less bs with this configuration. i am laying out my woods that got thinned a few months ago any advice is appreciated.

[Bruce L]

Bruce from Leader Evaporator was here walking the bush for five hours on Tuesday,gave me alot of ideas for improving flow,vacuum etc.He said he doesn't like our 6 way,3 way ,etc stars.I asked him why and he explained it to me in layman's terms,which I easily understood as we milked cows until 1999.He told me that if one of the lines is leaking coming into a star,the other lines therefore have a negative vacuum running back against them as when a liner would slip on a cow,the other three teats didn't have vacuum going to them.I should therefore either put in alot more manifolds and stars singly,or go with saddle connectors.I am just not sure how to have only one lateral coming off a star or from a saddle fitting without either breaking the fitting,or having extra stress to the connection to cause a leak.He told me to use hook connectors,could someone please post a picture of these how you hook them to your mainline wire and the 5/16" fitting?
Thanks,Bruce

[mapleack]

Bruce, you want your lateral lines to meet the mainline at close to a 90 deg angle, stretch the lateral tight, cut it just short of the mainline, insert the hook connector, hook it on the mainline wire. Next add a 12" or so piece of lateral line to the hook, making a loop to the saddle fitting. This loop creates the best leak checking system, in that sap will lay in the loop or move slowly if there's no leak on that lateral, if there's a leak you'll see air / sap shooting through the loop. He recommended the hook fittings since that's what they sell, and the hooks are fine, but I prefer slide tensioners instead because you can adjust tension on the lateral any time you want instead of being locked into where you put the cut in hook. Getting away from star fittings will save you tubing as well, since you'll usually use extra tubing trying to get to an existing star. I did the math on it once and forget the exact number, but it doesn't take much extra tubing to exceed the price of buying another saddle fitting.

[PerryW]

I'm dumb about vacuum, but ....

Can't you just twist the lateral between your finger and thumb(to temporarily create a small sag in the line) to see the bubble stream? (That's what I do to check for natural vacuum leaks.) You can do that test anywhere along the lateral to home in on the vacuum leak.

[mapleack]

Yes Perry you can, and that's how most isolate where a leak is on a lateral. By having the loops at the mainline it takes stress off the saddle and allows for a visual check without stopping and making the dip manually. When I'm hunting a leak I can walk a a fast pace up the mainline glancing at each saddle without slowing down until I get to one that has a leak, it saves a lot of time.