How Many Taps on a 5/16 Line

[lharris1]

This has probably been discussed but I do not recall seeing it. How many taps can you put on a 5/16" line before you have to put in a larger main line? On one tank we had 46 taps but most of our field tanks had fewer than 30 taps.

We have 28 on one branch and are thinking of running it down a gentle slope for about 150 yards and picking up around 30-35 more taps over the next 100 yards and then into a field tank to make the pickup location more accessible. Any words of widsom? Thanks.

[brookledge]

I strive to keep it under 10 taps on a 5/16 line. But most of my lines average 5. I used to have some lines that had 50 taps before and definatly noticed the increase in production once I added more mainline.
Another way to look at it is with a roll of 5/16 costing over 50 bucks now it is not that much more to put up mainline and you get better vacuum transfer.
Keith

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Guys,

Before you give too much advice to Larry, he made .4 gallons per tap with this setup last season. He kicks me 10 to 15 taps per lateral line butt all to pieces. He may have so many on them that he is creating a lot of vaccum. :D

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[brookledge]

Try pulling a tap out of the tree on a long 5/16 line at the bottom of a hill when the sap is flowing good. I can tell you what will happen sap will come gushing out.
While the line may create a vacuum on the high end of the line it will create pressure on the low end if it can't get out of the line quick enough.
Just my experience
Keith

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Maybe so, but he was right at a quart per tap this year and I wasn't even close to that and it wasn't a good syrup year at all. :?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

post edited.

[lharris1]

We had the pressure problem on the 46 tap line. Sometimes you could see the bubble traveling up toward lower trees. We solved it by putting the last six or so on a separate line.

As Brandon mentioned, we had a Cinderella first year making 66+ gal on about 170 taps. I mentioned it to a shopper at Brennemans who has about the same number of taps. I've never seen anyone's chin drop as far as his did. He was amazed. May be some of Brandon's sap made it to our tanks :wink: :wink: We canned almost all in glass and, until the last canning you could not tell one from the other on 11 canings.
They were all medium amber.

For another year I was hoping to avoid having to travel a muddy rutted road to collect from 28 taps. I suppose we would have to put in at least a 1/2" line where we start picking up the new 30-35 taps.

[maple flats]

I suggest you watch for the new addition of the North American Maple Producers Manual which should be available within a month or so as I understand it. This will answer all of your questions. From a plumbing stand point if you have very high numbers of taps on a single line you are loosing potential from line friction. My experience with going to a mainline set up is that 3/4" works out better because you have entry fittings that are easier to hook the 5/16 lines into the main that are not to my knowledge offered in 1/2". I use 100 psi black poly pipe and not the expensive type but do understand the official does have it's benifits. Go to a TSC store and get 400' rolls of 3/4" for your mains (their price is better than what a plumbing supplier sells it for). If you want to reduce the temps in the pipe wipe some white paint on the top half of the pipe after hanging it. Suspend it from a very tight wire in season and let off on the tension during the off season.

[treefinder]

if you put more than ten taps per 5/16 buy some vented spouts and use them on all or just your end tree's. that will solve your problem of pressure!

[lharris1]

Thanks for the replay. By "the end taps", do you mean the highest on the run. Also, I imagined we were getting some benifit from vacuum with at sealed system and if I vent it, I would lose that benifit.

[treefinder]

if you think your having trouble at the bottom then put some there instead of at the highest that shouldn't affect the natural vacum right?


_______________________
kevin

4x10 oil fired
1500 on tubing

[Parker]

I dont claim to know much but,,,,,I would never vent any of my tubing,,,I would not want outside air getting into my system that easily,,I would worry about my grade being affected immedatly and worry about my taps drying up due to the bacteria traveling into my taps with that ease ,,personally I think the 5/16 tubing has to have a certin "carring capacity" and once you reach a certin # of taps on a good run the tubing just cannot keep up,,on my systems I try to keep it aroung 5 taps per 5/16 line,,,,,,BUT I made .16 gallons per tap this year ,,,,,

[NH Maplemaker]

Parker is right :!: The last thing you want is away for bacteria to get into your tubbing system, and lowering your grade!! With all the talk on this site about tap hold sanitation that would defeat any atemp to kill bacteria. :oops: Jim L.

[Mike]

Leader has a page in there catalog that says strive for 5-6 taps, not more than 10??? Dont run the 5/16 more than 100 ft......I think theses are the numbers i read........

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Yeah, but Leader also makes and sells a ton of tubing and wants to sell as much as possible. In my opinion, 5 taps per lateral is way too low. Less taps means more tubing, spouts and fittings and more money for manufactures.

I would think 10 would be a good number and 15 is fine, basically it is just what works for you. Larry Harris had some in 2005 season with 30 to 40 on a line and he made .4 per gallon gravity. 8O Wonder what Leader and all the other "experts" have to say about that. 8O

[MASSEY JACK]

A sugarmaker with 15,000 taps all on vacuum told me at a tubing seminar to strive for 5 with no more than 10 on vacuum and strive for 10 with no more than 20 on gravity. These are good guidelines. I also think it will matter if you are tapping 12 inch trees or big ones. The idea of pulling out a tap at the bottom and seeing if you have pressure coming out is a great way to test your set up.

[mcmp]

I agree on the 10 tap guideline. A 5/16 line can flow a given amont of sap. Try to flow more and you will have a slow down. Once the sap slows down, you have more of a chance for the sap to warm and sap quality to go down. Keeping with the 10 tap guideline, the sap will transit the 5/16 to the mainlines quickly. I believe a lot of sap problems are in the tubing and the band aids are UV and air injection. High Quality Sap must be moved from the tree to the holding tanks quickly as possible, with each stage along the way keeping the sap as cool as possible right to the introduction to the evaporator.

Paul

[lharris1]

Related to Westvirginia Mapler's comment: I am pretty much dazed and amazed at our results the first year. I think our max number on a 5/16" line may have been about 28 then.

This is changing the subject, but, in ourt first year (2005) we had no bulk storage. Our storage consisted of about a dozen 30 gal drums and two drums connected together for the feed tank. This avoided cross contamination so that if one durm had bacteria, it did not affect the others. We boiled as soon as we would get 180 or so gallons. All of our production down to the final boil out was identical in appearance in pint jars which was medium amber. Maybe lots of 30 gal drums for storage in a small operation is not a bad idea?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Larry,

If you can keep the sap from intermixing, it will keep the lower quality sap to a minimum and definitely help make a better product in the long run vs 1 big bulk tank. :)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

And what have you been drinking. 8O

[220 maple]

west virginia the maple capital? I have customer who has a winter home in WV and summers in Maine. He buys his Dark Amber from me every year and takes it with him to Maine. He has purchased syrup in all the New England States. All he said was my Dark Amber is the Gold Standard. I hope he is never asked to judge a syrup contest up there. I don't want to lose a customer. I've asked him why he would not buy syrup from the real syrup makers up north, his answer. he could tell mine was real maple.

[PA mapler]

Hi all, I thought I'd resurrect this thread after I read H. Walker's link to an old study (he posted it in the "to vent or not to vent" thread): http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pubs/fls/OCRPDF/FLS-014.pdf
It really made a great case for non-vented lines, but it also blew my belief that the fewer taps per lateral line the better. This is a quote from the Conclusions section on page 16:
"Good natural vacuum in closed maple tubing requires the following conditions: (#3) A fast flow rate, obtained by numerous tapholes per line, vigorous trees, good climatic and weather conditions for sap flow, etc. Within the range tested, vacuum increased with larger numbers of taps; 10 taps per line were too few, while best vacuums were obtained with 50 or more taps."

The study compared lots of variables, like slope, but the gist of the whole thing remained the same: my 10 taps per line max is way too few. They showed the best sap volume per tap at like 50 to 80 taps, on a 10% slope. Yikes!

[Russell Lampron]

The vacuum they are talking about there is natural vacuum created by the volume of sap on a gravity system. If you are using a vacuum pump you want fewer taps to allow a space for the vacuum above the sap. Restrictions like lines that are full of sap reduce the amount of vacuum getting to the taps that are furthest away from the vacuum source.

Russ

[Jim Brown]

Guys here it my two cents worth ;As I 'am not a expert by no means and this will be our first year for vac every thing I have hearld from thoses that do run it is 10 taps max for 100-125 feet of 5/16 lateral.
don't know for sure yet but you just give me three weeks from now and I'll have abetter handle on it!
Jim

[brookledge]

Jim
You got it right about vacuum the fewer taps the better. But if you have no vacuum having more taps will create a natural vacuum so if you don't have vacuum I'd say keep the slope as high as possible and go up to 50 taps per lateral.
The big thin to keep in mind though is to not have a real steep latteral and then flatten out while still picking up taps. You are better off running a seperate lateral for the flatter slope.
What I'm trying to say is that with a steep slope you get a good vacuum pulling down and the if you have taps on a flatter section those will actually have pressure in them.
I have seen setup like this where you pull a tap on the lower section and the sap will gush out like a garden hose. So you know that when the tap is in the tree there is pressure trying to push the sap back into the tree.
I hope I explained this ok.
Just remember that any tap you pull sap should not come gushing out of the line, otherwise you need to make improvements. A little sap would be expected but it should not be under pressure.
Keith

[PA mapler]

Makes sense to have fewer taps/line if you use artificial vacuum. But since I don't have a pump, I just might re-arrange a few laterals. How many taps per line are people using with just natural vacuum?

just saw we posted at the same time, thanks Brookledge!

Another related question, what's about the maximum length for laterals you use?

[brookledge]

I have a few spots where my mainline was a ways away from some trees and rather than run along run of 5/16 I ran 1/2" mainline to get those few that way I get better vacuum transfer to those taps.
Keith

[royalmaple]

I had one spot in the back of my land that had (30) 12-16 inch trees in a clump. I used only 5/16 tubing and it was t'd and y'd all into one final run, it had like 3 runs that all terminated into one final run of 5/16. I think there was 30 taps in all, zero pitch to the land so it was only what I could "make" in the tubing.

And one run of tubing was at least 150 feet long.

I was amazed at how this tubing ran. The bubbles in the line were flowing like you had a vacuum leak on a vacuum system. It was amazing, and it dripped like steady out of the 5/16 line.

It is certainly not a controlled experiment or a rule of thumb, but it was interesting to see.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I have about 40+ taps on new section and 30+ taps on another section and each of these are only on 5/16" tubing. I am going to experiment and see how it works as they both have good slope. I like experimenting with some different, so we'll see. These trees are all woodland trees and won't run that much. It will be interesting to see how the sap and lines respond. If it doesn't work, I will run some 1/2" mainline next year but I have a feeling it will work great. Each of these lines are 600+ feet from beginning unto where they dump into mainline, so another good reason not to run 1200+ feet of mainline for 75 taps.

[PA mapler]

Thanks for the replies! I'm thinking it's definitely worth a little re-plumbing to put more taps on each line. Looks like a little warmup in the weather here in a week maybe, so hopefully I can get a chance before we need to be tapping.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[PA mapler]

So ideally you still need to keep your total lateral length within reason, and avoid long stretches with no taps since you'll "lose" vacuum? And also try to keep the slope of each lateral constant, or perhaps steeper as it goes downhill?

[Dave Puhl]

Some questions...what would be best for a mainline in 5/16 in tubing..semi rigid or regular keeping in mind using some for drops..for the end tree and the start tree my supplier has a connector with a hook on it is this used by hooking a wire to your end/start trees

[scw]

Now if my lines are backing up at my collection tank, that is not going to limit the amount of sap flowing from the trees, right? It is just a matter of getting the sap into the collection container sooner than later. I guess I would be losing some of that natural vacuum too. I have 28 taps on this line and it seems to be backing up where I have the laterals coming in. I think I may reroute a length directly to the collection container tonight.

[woodcutter]

SCW, I wood recommend shortening the lateral. I am on vacuum and try to keep the laterals to 8 taps each, not always possible. I have also found that two laterals entering the mainline across from each other into the same saddle is a bad choice, try to stagger them and use two single saddles.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

OK, I know I may get blasted for this but as I posted earlier, I had a southside bush that had about 95 taps running into a 150 gallon tank and they are smaller woodland hillside trees with very little water access and they never ran much. Well, I added 2 lateral lines aproximately 600 to 800 feet long with 1 line having aprox 35 taps on it and another line have aprox 40 taps on it. These 5/16" "mainlines" are staight and I have several lateral branch lines coming off of each one. Well, needless to say, I have NEVER seen sap run like this in my life. There is quite a bit of slope on each line and I guess I am creating a lot of vaccum because the sap was just pouring. I couldn't justify running 1000 feet of mainline for 75 taps that aren't going to produce that good to start with. I now have aprox 170 taps running into a 150 gallon tank and it overflows with regularity. My plan was even if the 5/16 hindered the sap flow some, it is still more sap that what I was getting with 95 taps, but it is the opposite. The 1/2 mainline with 170 taps on it pours and it has some turbulence coming out of it when the sap it running at its peak. Might have more 5/16" mainlines in the future and less 1/2" for these areas with not a lot of taps. Definitely don't have to worry about any bacteria building up in any very minor sags.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[PA mapler]

I replumbed my lines a few weeks back, so there are now anywhere from 20-50 taps on each lateral. I had gotten my wires crossed, and was going by the rule of thumb of "no more than 10 taps to a line, no longer than 100 feet". Not realizing that was for artificial vacuum. I think that was one reason why my last two seasons were disappointing. It'll be neat to see how much difference it makes. I also replaced all the bits and peices of old, saggy green tubing I could find.

[ebourassa]

alright here a question thats been bugging me, i have swicthed over to 5/16 spiles from 7/16 on tubing, i know i will have 20% less sap, so what i have heard, now by using a health spout why couldnt you just add a extra spile on the bigger trees to help over come that 20% loss, i was just thinking about this and i know the health spouts are better for the tree and close up faster so why not? . is it true that trees only have a certain amount of sap and why would adding a extra spile even benefit the amount of sap you get? any info would be appreciated. thank Erik

[fred]

thats fine if you want to shorten the life of the tree.i assume you went smaller to improve the trees health.i still dont put more than 4 on a tree no matter how big it is. if the tree is 150 years old it may need all it can get. and i still would not put more than 8 drops on a line

[PA mapler]

I use the health spouts. I think I remember hearing that you can add an extra spout to a tree, IF it's healthy and not already overtapped. I know some of mine are overtapped, and I actually eliminated a few taps here and there as I was tapping. I noticed last years' holes did not heal well at all compared to previous years. We have heavy clay soils, and the wet summer last year must have been bad for the trees.

Your also supposed to be able to tap smaller trees, like 8's and 10's, so I've tried a few. They seem to heal OK, not sure how much sap they really give though.

Maybe it's just a tree-by-tree judgement call. I have one huge, ugly old thing I put 5 taps on, two of them the old 7/16s still. It heals up tight, every hole, every year, and always has a vigorous crown in the summer.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Beth,

Let me know how the tubing runs with 20 to 50 taps per lateral line. I can't believe the difference it made for me, hopefully it will help you a lot too. One thing I have going for me is plenty of slope.

[PA mapler]

I average about 15-20% slope, and just one lateral was close enough that I had to get out the 4-foot level out to tweak it. It helped alot to install those new end-tree connections, so the lines all are nice and tight, no sags. When I first started, I used strips of old inner-tubes to hold up that nasty green tubing that always sagged and stretched.

I'll let you know how I make out. If it works as well as I hope, I might be regretting the extra 50 taps I put on this year!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Beth,

I have 500 on a 2x8, so you can do 300 on a 2x6.

[PA mapler]

Hi Brandon

Wow, that's alot of taps! What kind of evaporation rates are you getting? I made a pre-heater last year that got my sap up to about 170 degrees, which helped some, and I boil off between 22 and 29 gallons per hour (depending on the weather). If I get a monster run on 300 taps, say 500 gallons, I might be boiling 20 hours.

For this year, I added two more lengths of copper pipe to my pre-heater, maybe get the sap up closer to 200, and a blower in the ash-door, so maybe I'll get my evap. rate even higher.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Beth,

I am getting between 50 and 55 gph including startup and shutdown.

[PA mapler]

Brandon- I think I did the right thing when I re-plumbed my laterals from 10 taps to up to 30 per line. It DEFINITELY didn't hurt things, anyway. It was a poor year here, so it's hard to compare, but I still got a few sap flows into the tank at about 30 gallons per hour.

I also increased my evaporation rate, up to about 34 gallons per hour as best as I can tell. I read here somewhere that someone was putting in a water meter to measure flow into the evaporator. How well would that work?

[Sugarmaker]

Beth,
Let me know what type of end fittings you used. I want to tighten the lines more next year.

FYI I had 16 taps on several lines and really did not see much reduction in sap with the 5/16 spouts, and tubing compared to buckets on 7/16 spiles. I like the idea that the tree will heal quicker too.
Thanks,
Chris

[PA mapler]

Hi Chris- I use the "End Ring" fitting (p.21 this year's Leader catalog). I'm not exactly sure if I'm doing it right, but I use a junk straight-connector with a junk peice of tubing (no sap will be in this piece) to make a ring around the end tree. I slip the "O" part of the end ring onto this tubing, making sure it's on the right way, with the plug-part of the fitting facing down. This way you can attach your lateral to the connector-part that sticks out, and the dropline to the connector-part that sticks up, and pull everything as tight as you need to. Works great. I used to have all sorts of clapped-up things going on at the end trees before I found these connectors. With these, and the 4-seasons tubing, there are (almost!) no sags in my lines.

I'm glad you haven't had much difference in sap between the two tap sizes. I still worry about that after I went to the 5/16. But my trees heal alot faster with them, and the drill batteries last alot longer too. I can drill 40-50 holes per battery now.

[mountainvan]

There are t's that are green that have one side open and one solid for use with the end it ring. Lateral, with end it ring slide over, goes into open end, tubing around tree goes on closed end to end it ring, and drop goes on top of t. Works very well.

[Sugarmaker]

Beth and Mountainvan,
Thanks for the info on the end fittings. Beth mentioned a leading supplier of fittings but Mountainvan you didn't. When I asked the folks that Beth mentioned they said another supplier had a better system than they did for end trees. Maybe its the green ring mentioned by Mountainvan?? If you guys want you can PM me on this too?

I do want to get something that I can adjust quickly as needed during the season. I had some saggy droopy lines that ran OK but probably would have done better if I could have tightened them easily.

We have plenty of extra tubing that I can use on end trees. I do like the idea that there is not sap in the tube going around the tree.

This year we used a splice connector fitting with a hole in it and screwing it to each tree with a dry wall screw. It held in place well but was not easy to adjust.

Suragmaker

[Dave Puhl]

I just used some small rope looped around a tee and then around the tree left the tee aways from the tree and had room to cinch it tighter when it sagged

[220 maple]

What type of tubing are you using that sags during the season, The tubing brand that I use never sags, I hook it to the main line and pull it to the last tree and tack it fast with a small nail thru one of the tees. The reason I ask is because one of the dealers I buy supplies from has talked me into trying two different kinds in the past. Neither brands is as good as my prefered brand. However,Both of those brands had some things about them that was good. My other dealer has already had complains about the new all-flex tubing. My guess it's a complaint from a producer that in the past was using the tubing like I prefer, and he is spoiled like me. I visited my pa. dealer recently, I'd heard a rumor he was not selling my prefered brand anymore.
His answer to me. Why would I quit selling the best? He sells several skid loads a year. He has the other stuff also that sags and pops off the fittings, It cost less and that my fellow traders is the bottom line.
mark 220 Maple

[H. Walker]

220 Maple ; I want to try and hang some line for next year, SO what is your prefered type of tube for laterals??

[Sugarmaker]

Yep sagging and popping off the fittings sounds about right. I put this U flex tubing up when it was very cold outside and it seemed to relax as the weather got warmer. I wasn't very happy. I wanted this to be as straight and tight as possible. I was looking for a tubing that was flexible enough that I could roll it up each season and store it, since I have to take it down. I am switching to a stiffer tubing for the main flow line (still 5/16). I have found that the next stiffer version ("L Brand" 30P) seems to work better with less sags and no coming off the fittings. ( I had also made a installation error in using hot water to installed the fittings and this just does not work with this type of tubing.
I know there is more rigid tubing out there but not sure it will be easy to handle when I need to take it down? I will use the more flexible (L brand)Ultra flex for the drops.
I am just going to about 4 trees in a line along the road with approx 16 taps per line to a 40 gallon tote. There fore I want the ability to re stretch the tubing if it does sag. Also keep in mind this was my first attempt at tubing so I have probably made all the classic mistakes that others using tubing for years know to avoid.

Thanks for all the advice and support.

Sugarmaker

[Mike]

If you buy any of the blue spouts be careful...I bought a bag of them and am finding air leaks in my lines.Looks like the problem is when they made them the mold left a line of plastic from the tree end up to the top of the tap....Not a big line of plastic but unough to prevent the taps drom sealing 100% ....I may try to sand them smoth and retry, if not ill return them for a new spout....

[Sugarmaker]

I havent gotten into any of the blue spouts but have a small pet peeve on the black spouts that I have used. This may sound petty but these have a sharp plastic protrusion from the injection sprue break off point. Just happens to be at the same location that you will push on with your hand. This minor defect really irritates and gouges in to your palm when trying to install these into the cup on the tee fitting. I sanded these off to make it easier on the hand. During cleaning and removal from the tree this is a annoying issue And If I am going to have these around for 15 years It needed to be corrected..

Probably no one else has noticed this. Maybe just my soft office hands!;)

Sugarmaker

[PA mapler]

I've been using 4-season Waterloo tubing, some of it is light blue and some is light purple. I can get it nice and tight, even when the temps get higher it sags very little. Basically there is NO problem with fittings coming off, maybe once a year before the season when I'm fixing lines I'll have something come apart. I bought a pile of it a number of years ago from my supplier, and haven't had to buy any since, so I don't know if they still sell the same stuff.

[HanginAround]

From what I can see, the Lapierre rigid is very good, but kinda stiff if you want to take it down and handle it. I've rarely seen it pull off a fitting, and even when the moose walk through the lats, the tubing itself will fail before it comes off a fitting. Some people have even gone to using semi-rigid for lats with good luck as far as strectching or sagging.