anyone else use a D&G 18x63?

[royalmaple]

Anyone else using the "sportsman" evaporator?

I have been having some difficulty with the thermometer reading correctly. I got a d&g 12inch 0-50 thermometer and have it screwed in hand tight (more threads are showing but doesn't want to go anymore and is not bottomed out on the pan). I get a better reading on the thermometer if I am running about 1.5+ inches deep.

Tonight I was trying to run as low as I could, I had the flue pan rolling boil and just over the flues keeping them wet but rolling. This made the front pan say 3/4 or less deep. Problem was the thermometer was not reading correctly at this depth. I used the hydrometer and checked and I was at 55ish and thermometer was reading well under 0.

Then I tried something else where I plugged the flue pan off from the front pan and let the front pan get lower and lower. I was constantly drawing off and using my hydrometer and when I got it very close I started a slow draw off into my container and then I cracked the seal on the flue pan to flood the front pan and push the syrup out. When I did the flooding it got the thermometer deep enough in the syrup to read 7 or 8 so it was right. I guess I don't know what the happy medium or trick is?

I should be able to just set the depth and let her rip and not be plugging / unplugging and still get syrup, but at 1.5 - 2 inches deep I would have say gallon or more of syrup waiting in the front pan before I can get any out.

Seems like I am missing something. :roll:

[SteveD]

Royal ...I have a similar sized evaorator with a similar setup of the pans.

Also similar problems...requiring at least 1.5 inches in the frontpan to have the thermometer work correctly...

My manufacturer says I should run at least 2'' all across the evaporator...when close...plug off the front pan and take it to draw off temp. Then he says draw off about an inch....remove plug and flood back to 2" ...and repeat process over and over.

That does work..and you can use the thermometer that way. However, I'm not giving up on trying to set up the "fabled" gradient and constant drizzle drawoff without the use of the plugs.

Keep me posted if you find any solutions..... :?

Steve

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Seems like both of you could bend the lip or the thermometer a touch to get with close to the bottom of the pans. On my evaporator, the therememoter mounts parrallel with the bottom of the pan about 1/4 from the bottom and goes across the entire outside compartments. :?

[royalmaple]

Steve-

Essentially that is what I did last night, and it did work. Luckily the fire was dying out and I could "play" with it more easily.

I am gonna screw around with somethings today and see if I can come up with anything worth mentioning.

I guess relocating the thermometer wouldn't be a bad idea like brandon's set up.

we'll get it sooner or later. Then we can pattent the method and sell back to the big 3. 8O 8O 8O

You would think that the manufacturers would have worked out the bugs on all sizes of evaporators and run into these types of situations and worked them out. Guess I am thinking too much again.

[SteveD]

Tonight we did some experimenting....we boiled as hot as we could...running at about 13 GPH with a stack temp of about 500 to 550 degrees. We boiled for about 4 hours and couldn't move the temp in the syrup pan above BPW+3. We did a very unscientific hydrometer test of the concentrating sap in the flue pan and compared it to the concentrated sap in the front pan. We found VERY little difference between them.

Now our flue pan has no real baffles or channels...only the separation between the float box and the rest of the flue pan. So...with the flue pan and the front pan unplugged...they both were acting like one big open pan concentrating slowly as it accepted new sap and boiled off the water vapor. Since, at a level of about 2 inches, those two pans would hold approximately 8 gallons of liguid, if I'm not mistaken (and I readily admit that I could be...) it can be reasoned that it would take the boiling of approximately 400 gallons of 2% sap to get the two pan's load up to 7.1 degrees above BPW. In other words...if no gradient is created...the whole thing would slowly creep up to BPW+7.1 ...and would be drawn off all together after approximately 31 hours of boiling at 13gph.

I don't see how a flue pan without baffles or channels can create a gradient....and so I am reluctantly beginning to believe the evaporator's manufacturer's instructions of having to use the plug to concentrate in the syrup pan..draw off...flood...and plug again.

Indeed, we did that for 3 hours after the first 4 hours mentioned above, and found that we could create and draw off appox. one quart every 45 to 50 minutes. From anything we could see...it looked as though we could do that indefinitely.

Does the D&G evaporator have channels in the flue pan? It seems like I remember it did...

If so...perhaps it could develop a gradient where mine does not appear able to.

....or maybe ....I just am way too impatient. :?

One way or another...we are getting great tasting syrup...

Steve

[royalmaple]

Steve-

My back pan has one divider creating two compartments, and one elbow pipe connecting the flue pan to the syrup pan, which also has one divider in it.

After more boiling today I tried a few things, one was I had that sucker roaring, I have been burning mostly pallet wood so I don't think you can get much hotter. Also I do not have a blower installed "yet" but i do have a damper, which I just barely crack on so it does slow it down just a bit.

I set the flowbox to about 1/2 -3/4 inch deep in the back pan, or so when I looked at the inlet tube it was about 1/2 full and so was the tube connecting the front pan. I got the back pan to roll like a wave from the front of the flue pan to the back of the pan, the wave was almost constant to the very back of the pan in both compartments.(flowing away from the syrup pan)

Because of the hard boil it was not truely allowing the float to keep the depth at where I set it, so it was running a bit more shallow. at times you could see the bottom of the pan, but was quickly covered as the boiling went across, so wasn't dry.

Ran and ran like this for a while and got the syrup pans hotter maybe 215. but honeslty I don't think you can run this set up any lower. I still had to plug the flue pan to get the syrup pan to get even a bit lower. Syrup pan seemed to run the depth of the lead in the bottom of my hydrometer, slightly below. I was using the hydrometer as a stick to make sure I wasn't going to fry the syrup pan. At about 1/2 the depth of my lead in the hydrometer I was getting to 219, really small syrup bubbles in the first compartment and larger bubbles in the other compartment. With the flue pan plugged I could bring the front pan to between 220-221(8-9) which was testing on the hydrometer as syrup or darn close.

THat is what I had to do, and since the fire box is pretty small and I was alone, while friggin with all this low levels the fire would die down a bit and probably for the best. I was able to crack the drawoff valve and start a trickle. I didn't unplug the flue pan yet, I got a good amount out at the 220 degrees, then kept sticking the pan to make sure it was ok, still ran about 1/2 inch. Then I would quickly unplug and re plug the back, just giving a shot of new hot sap to the pan. Gave the syrup a good push, but didn't kill the temp. did that a few times till the temp really went down and unplugged and let it rip for a while.

Allowed me larger draws of about 1/2 gallon but fewer during the day.

Before I tried this, I said to myself this morning I was just gonna feed sap and wood and wait till it said syrup, and after 4 hours of nothing I retreated to the plug method to get something out.

I'm 1/2 tempted to replace the elbow with couple of threaded couplings, nipples and 90's make my own connection with a large ball valve in the middle to really set my own levels in the front pan and not screw with the plugs.

Then you can run the flue pan at a safe reasonable level and play with the syrup pan.

[royalmaple]

Steve-

Take a look at my pictures link and you can see my evaporator pictures.

I looked at yours and I think if you could add some dividers to make even two compartments in your flue pan and two in your syrup pan you would see more changes and less mixing in your rig.

I do see pretty good separation in mine, but I can see that yours may tend to mix a bit more and not really flow to the syrup pan as efficiently.

Wouldn't be too hard to tack in a piece of ss sheet metal to get you two compartments in each pan.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Wow, guys. Never had to do this with my D&G 2 x 6 with the 45 degree thremometer fitting. Maybe it's the design of the smaller evaporator. Always drew off at 221-222 degrees (9-10 over boiling) and made good syrup. I ran my evaporator at about 1-1/2" deep and set my thermometer by holding it in the back pan. I do the same with my new 3 x 10 D&G.

I'm sure others can explain how the gradient situation works, but it is there if you fire evenly. It is all based on an even inlet flow of new sap. In the end, it comes down to keeping the fire at an even temperature. This usually requires setting a timer so that you add wood consistently. It also reqires keeping the front door open the minimum amout of time while firing (literally 2 seconds or less) to keep the front pan from cooling. If you don't keep the fire to an even level (temperature, amount of wood, etc), it will affect the float by making it surge on an off, and therefore lessen the gradient, the temp will drop, and cause you to take forever to make syrup.

As this was explained to me (from Leader and also my dealer), the smaller evaporators are the most difficult to keep a gradient. It is very difficult to "trickle" syrup in a steady stream. You usually draw off in batches. My 3 x 10 is much easier to fire than my 2 x 6 because the front pan seemed to cool so quickly when I opened the doors.

Hope this helps in some way. I am still learning, that's for sure.

[sweetwoodmaple]

P.S. I just looked at your pics of the evaporator and see why you may have trouble with the inlet float and therefore the gradient.

Is there only one connection between the float box and the evaporator? That might make it difficult to regulate the incoming sap. The 2 x 6's have two inlets to the float box. One that simply let's in sap to the pan under the float valve, and another that is directly under the float (senses the level in the evaporator). This connection that is under the float has a shield that helps protect the float from seeing surges from boiling and therefore has more even control.

Plus, with 300 taps, maybe time to upgrade to a 2 x 6? :wink:

[royalmaple]

sweetwood,

I agree, open and close the doors as fast as you can helps. even throwing in a couple of sticks and slamming the door shut like a pit stop still allows for several degrees to fall. but with enough heat, I can get it to come right back pretty well if I didn't run too low on wood prior and need a bunch of wood to fill back up. then it takes longer.

I guess for me with all the talk about light syrup and trying to get everything off the evaporator as soon as you can I get a bit excited / nervous when nothing is happening for hours and hours and hours.

feels like I am just cooking syrup.

I was tempted to just let it run until it showed syrup, however long it took. but I was a bit nervous thinking it would take two days of boiling and when it read syrup I would have tar instead of syrup.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Matt,

I know what you mean. Seem like it takes forever, but trust me, you're syrup will be fine. Be patient. You'll make light syrup too. Plus, it's not a crime to make medium syrup, for Pete's sake. :wink: :D

The falling of temperature messes up the gradient. You may not be able to avoid it with such a small evaporator. Maybe that's why they recommend plugging the pans.

Have you been able to pick up a Department of Ag. Sirip Manual? Has some great info in there.

Did you get the evaporator from a dealer? If so, where is he/she in all of this? They should be giving you some help and pointers.

Just my opinion, don't get too crazy with running the evaporator at a low level. Better to make a slightly lesser grade of syrup than have burnt syrup and a warped pan.

Brian

[royalmaple]

I bought the manual from a link someone posted from an off site. 16ish dollars. Bought it last week sometime but don't have it yet.

Yeah as far as the grade thing goes, I really could care less. In fact I tested a jar full of the stuff that I had been boiling for what seemed like eternity, which I did my trick to draw off a coupe of gallons I think on Friday and saturday and it was just barely over the med amber in the kit but not dark as the dark in the kit. But tasted like a million bucks to me, regardless of color.

I did buy the evaporator from a dealer, and I got a different spin from him. In his defence I think he was quoting published ratings etc from D&G but he told me at first start up run it for couple of hours all sap, draw off 1 quart and throw into the flue pan, run another hour, draw quart and throw into flue pan, etc for three times I think and then I would be drawing a quart of syrup off each hour.

Well that is nice and rosey but guess what didn't happen.
Then I thought I was doing something wrong, I saw him make syrup on his and it worked like clock work, but now realizing can't compare apples and oranges.

I honestly find better more fair answers here.

maybe I should just run the thing silly until it does read syrup at 1 inch deep or 1 1/2 deep. should happen just a matter of time and sap boiled and it has to be forming syrup in there.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Matt - something to try...

I see you have a valve above your float that allows you to add sap. I would try using that as my primary way of adding sap once the evaporator is up and running. Set the float to a low level so it is used as a back up in case your boiling rate is higher than your other manual valve can add sap.

This will keep adding sap despite the rate of boiling. It may help your gradient situation.

Another thing (sorry if you already do this), when you shut down, do you draw off some partially finished syrup? If not, try drawing off three gallons or so into a bucket. Before you start up the next time, plug the pans and drain the front and dump into the back pan. Then, add your three gallons of partially finished syrup in the bucket to the front pan. When you get the rig up and boiling (including the float or valve adding fresh sap), unplug the pans. You should have a jump start in the gradient this way.

Take Care - Brian

[royalmaple]

Brian-

The extra valve was my Holy SH*T valve, just to CMA.

I can try that, just crack that valve open (steady trickle) and leave the float at say 1 inch level?

Also when i shut down I just shut down, I don't draw anything off. I have flooded the pans before and then trapped the front pans more dense fluid in there with the plug. If I don't I do see more mixing between pans as they are left alone, but does come out of it once the boiling gets going next time.

I can try drawing off some material and saving till next time.
Would you just run it till it showed syrup or would you mess with the plugs like I have done?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Guys,

I think you can draw off syrup on either of these evaporators. I don't mean any harm, but I think both of you are a little impatient. Both of your syrup pans hold probably at least 2.5 to 3 gallon at a 1 inch level. This means you need to boil off probably for 8 to 10 hours or more to get it to the proper gradient. Trust me, it will get to syrup even though it may take longer than you think. It has to go somewhere and if you boil long enough, you should be able to start drawing off a little syrup quite often. :?

[sweetwoodmaple]

Matt - I would run it until it shows syrup. The only draw back may be getting a little bit of niter in the flues if the gradient doesn't work out as well. I use diluted lemon juice to loosen up the niter between boils.

Otherwise, you are risking burning the pans by plugging and drawing off. Yes, I have had to do this in the past with a flat pan, but why do it now when you have the convenience of a float valve?

If you really get addicted to syrup, I would upgrade to a 2 x 6 minimum. They run much better and have a better boiling rate.

Brian

[royalmaple]

Brian-

Thanks, all things to consider. Still gonna plug away, enjoying it anyway.

I got opportunity to add several hundred more taps if I wish next year, may be worth the upgrade but playing it by ear for now.

Also don't want to give anyone the wrong idea if they are looking to purchase one of these units. They do work, just may have to get creative. I'm sure other will say that NO set up is bullet proof. But depending on your budget you can pay to get rid of some of the bugs.

Hell of a lot better than what I was playing with last year, started with a flat 18x22 pan, recessed in a stove, scorched the sides like coal. Still made syrup, but certainly earned every ounce.

[royalmaple]

Brandon-

Think you are right too, yes, those front pans will hold about 3 gallons of liquid at roughly 1 inch, and certainly 4-5 if I am running 1.5 - 2 inches deep per mfg recommendation. So yeah, do the math on the "potential" syrup in the front pan, it is gonna take some boiled off sap to get there.

Also yeah, the syrup has to go somewhere, doesn't evaporate.

I think tomorrow night I'll bring the capt.(morgan) in the shack with me and take the edge off... :lol: :lol: :lol: Just feed wood and sap and wait patiently, like a good young grasshopper.

[SteveD]

Brandon...I'm sure you are right...I know I'm too impatient.

To be honest...I've kind of gotten used to the routine of plugging the syrup pan...boiling down to about BPW+9 degrees.....drawing off till I get down to about BPW+4 or 5... flooding....and then plugging and doing it all over again. I get a little over a quart an hour on each draw off...and I can accomplish other things around the sugar house in between draw offs and loading wood.

If I was to actually wait the 8 to 30 hours it might take to get to where I would have a gadient and a constant drizzle...I would have to stay glued to the evaporator's side thereafter. So...at least for now...I'm willing to stick to the manufacturer's routine. :)

Steve

[royalmaple]

Steve-

I called D&G yesterday and I realize yours isn't exactly like mine but they pointed out that I may want to try standing two firebricks on end inside the firebox to create some turbulence inside and that may cause some heat to be pushed to the front of the pans then work its way out with the draft.

I think if you look at Johnny Cuervos rig, he ran into something similar with his homemade rig and he did something creative on his to get the similar effect.

I am gonna try today to see if it helps any, I'll let you know how it goes.

[royalmaple]

Steve or anyone else with a rig like ours. Got some pointers.


Take a couple of fire bricks, I use the double thickness ones so they stand on end better, stack two ontop of each other and sideways and then put one on end next to these two. Put them as far back in your firebox as your flues allow. Essentially making a back to your fire box. This still leaves a few inches before the bottom of the pans.

Fill with wood and wait till you see the difference in the boil.

Just scoffed down dinner and going back out. Much Much Much better boil in the syrup pans and much better gph. You won't believe the difference, totally night and day.

[SteveD]

Matt....

I guess I didn't realize you were not happy with the degree of boil you achieved.

Maybe its just because I don't know any better ....but I think mine is boiling fine. We went to several sugarhouses last weekend for Vermont's Open House Weekend, and....taking into account the size differences.....I think our boil looks pretty appropriate.

When I spoke to the manufacturer of my evaporator...he told me to fire brick up the end of my firebox in a manner similar to what you are talking about I think. He also told me to fill in behind that "wall" with sand all the way back to the stack..leaving 4 to 5 inches below the flue bottoms to help channel the flames past the flues. If you look in the photo titled "Drop Flue Evaporator Pan" in my photos at the URL below...you can just see the firebrick wall I built and the sand bed behind it.

I will try to upload a better photo of it to the photo album at that URL, so you can see better.

Is this similar to what you are talking about?

Steve

[SteveD]

Matt.....I did get the other photo uploaded...its titled "Arch Interior".

Steve

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Steve,

Did you firebrick the entire arch?? It appears you don't have any firebrick in it or maybe I am seeing wrong. The entire arch needs to be firebricked and the floor underneath the flues and this will take care of a lot of your problem. It will also extend the life of the arch a long time.

If I am wrong, forgive me for being stupid. :oops:

[royalmaple]

Steve-

My arch is already firebricked so I have about 5 inches between brick and bottom of flues all the way up. Just added loose brick as I stated earlier to make a "back" to the fire box with fire brick.

Boiling like mad now, front pan really makes the syrup bubbles and foams before I draw off.

:lol: :lol:

[Jim Brown]

I used a new D&G 18X66 last year( drop flue) we were instructed by our dealer to brick the arch and the sides completly from the fire box to the stack. The total number of brick if I remember right was around 65. That included the stack base. when we set the pan on it the brick were only about 1/4 in from the flues in the back.The flames and heat had to go through the flues to get out the the stack not under.
Hope this helps
We now have a new 2x6 raised flue and the brick are up level with the angle sides and the fire has to go UP and throught the flues to get out the back.
P.S. this took 120 brick and 6 five gallon buckets of sand

[SteveD]

Brandon...

Yes my entire arch is firebricked....The reason it does not look like it..is because when I was firebricking it I had no instructions on how to do it..(and I had not yet found the Mapletrader)....So, in my usual way of doing things .....where if a little is good... then alot MUST be better.... I not only smeared the backs and edges of the brick with cement ....I "iced" the whole dang arch with cement after the bricks were in place!!!

I now of course realize that I have the one and only maple sugaring arch in North America where you can't actually see the fire bricks that are under about 3/16 inch of refractory cement. I don't know if doing that was harmful...so far I haven't seen any evidence that it was. Perhaps time will tell.

All I know is that the whole set up seems to work very well, and pretty much exactly like the manufacturer said it would. So far, in what essentially has been a "one week" season (its now too hot here so the sap has stopped)...we have made 4 gallons of Vermont Fancy, 8 gallons of Medium Amber and we have about 200 gallons of sap left to boil with that little evaporator...and we are tickled pink.

I guess sometimes....ignorance really is bliss.

Steve :)

[royalmaple]

Steve-

You didn't hurt anything with the refractory cement. Just have it sealed up really well.

[SteveD]

Matt...

I'll say !!!!

I will try your loose firebrick idea tomorrow and see what happens...

Thanks.

Steve

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Don't worry, my dad is a mason and works in boilers from time to time where he works and they use extremely high temp firebrick and when he helped me brick mine, he iced them also. Looks fine to me, it doesn't matter what someone else thinks. :lol:

You really only need about 1/2 to 1 inch of firespace between flues and firebrick. 5 inches is way to much and might want to shut off that space. :?

[Banjo]

Steve or anyone else with a rig like ours. Got some pointers.


Take a couple of fire bricks, I use the double thickness ones so they stand on end better, stack two ontop of each other and sideways and then put one on end next to these two. Put them as far back in your firebox as your flues allow. Essentially making a back to your fire box. This still leaves a few inches before the bottom of the pans.

Matt, I'm probably just being "thick" here ... are you putting these bricks in the "firebox" area or in the raised "flu" area that's under the pan? If I've got this right, their function is to stir up the hot gasses as they pass under the pans to give better heat transfer. Is it?

A picture would really help. Just thinking about what I want to do for next year and trying to get a sound understanding of the principles going on inside a well working evaporator.

thanks in advance, cheers, Andrew

[royalmaple]

Banjo-

No problem asking a question. I am putting the bricks inside the firebox (in the arch) as far into the fire box as they will go up to the flue pan.

Exactly, it causes disruption in the flow of gases and gets them moving toward the front of the evaporator then over the top and out the stack. It does not effect the flue pan at all, still violent boil back there too, but certainly helps the syrup pan. Here is an "after" pic of the boil from the other day.

http://www.diecastwarehouse.com/33120051.jpg

Flue pan-Still working....
http://www.diecastwarehouse.com/3312005.jpg
I can take a pic of the brick later and post.

[Banjo]

Matt,
thanks for the reply. A picture of the bricks would be great, but there's no rush.

thanks again, Andrew