Calling all Waterguy RO users

[backyardsugarer]

What pressure does everyone run their RO at while they are washing the membranes. I have been running it about 100 psi and waiting for the water to get up to about 110. I then let it soak overnight and rinse the following day. Seems to be working all right but I want to make sure. For anyone else running NF270 4040 membranes let me know what works for you. These machines do not have a wash cycle like other RO's so it all has to be done manually. The manufacturer has been less that helpful with his cleaning advice. I don' think Bill know's too much about maple.

Chris

[jimandchuck]

I run at 125 psi. But I haven't gotten temps as high as you. Only about 95. Agree with the last comment. Nor the patience to deal with questions. I don't soak it overnight. Just for an hour or so after working her. Seems to be ok. I don't think longer is bad just as long as you rinse with the permeate when done. Actually, some of the other units which cost alot more do soak overnight. The waterguys ro doesn't mention this does it? Do you use citric acid down to 2-3 PH ?
All in all, I am happy not spending the time boiling. jj

[Brent]

The instructions on my RO are totally hopeless. So much so that the instructions for washing don't even tell you to start the pump, let alone one pump or both pumps or what pressure, if any.

So this is my totally un-professional opinion.

You're not trying to make permate. You're only trying to get the maximum flow over the concentrate side of the membranes to flush off the bio-film, so I think, and it seemed to work well for me for the last two seasons, that you should run both pumps but with the
high pressure valve wide open ... ie minimum pressure and maximum flow.

If anyone has better advice, I need it too.

[wiam]

The instructions on my RO are totally hopeless. So much so that the instructions for washing don't even tell you to start the pump, let alone one pump or both pumps or what pressure, if any.

So this is my totally un-professional opinion.

You're not trying to make permate. You're only trying to get the maximum flow over the concentrate side of the membranes to flush off the bio-film, so I think, and it seemed to work well for me for the last two seasons, that you should run both pumps but with the
high pressure valve wide open ... ie minimum pressure and maximum flow.

If anyone has better advice, I need it too.

That is what directions printed on my old memtek says. Works for me.

[gmcooper]

I have a waterguy and had to guess on washing like most everyone else. To get temp up I had to run pressure up over 125. I am going to use a heater this year to get temp up with out that much pressure. Some days I soaked over night and some I had to rinse after a couple hours of soaking.

[backyardsugarer]

So the consensus seems to be run it at a PH around 11 up to 105 with a PSI of 125-150. Then rinse with the concentrate valve wide open under low pressure. On a side note the waterguys unit is not a bad RO but the instructions for care did not exist and the customer service is poor. With all of the other alternatives available (H2O solutions) I would go elsewhere if I had to do it again.

Chris

[Brent]

Keep in mind that while the wash goes on, some of the basic ingredients will get neutralized as they react with the bio-film and your
11 that you start with can drift back to maybe 8 or 9. Monitor it and add more powder if needed.

[farmermike]

Hi, I got a waterguy 5000. I was cleaning it up and was wondering how to get the PH down? How much citric acid do you use to get the PH Down to 2-3 ph from 10??

[Brent]

Hi, I got a waterguy 5000. I was cleaning it up and was wondering how to get the PH down? How much citric acid do you use to get the PH Down to 2-3 ph from 10??

How long have you had it? Normally you don't get enough mineral build up during the season to need an acid bath until the season is done. Then you do alternating basic / acid / basic / acid baths until the membranes are clean.

[mountain man maple]

You should be monitoring your acid and soap washing ph levels -(use ph strips)
your start reading should be about 7 or 8-- for citric acid wash- drain the ENTIRE ro system---heat up about 5 gallons of water to 100 degrees---start recirculating water through system slowly adding acid until ph reaches 2-3---then recirculate for 20 min--let soak for 20 min---recirculate for 20 min and then drain ENTIRE ro system completely-- completely--now run wash solution through ro for 20 minutes - let soak for 20 minutes- then drain soap soltion- now flush system with pure water to drains for 20 minutes-then change pre-filter with new one and run another 20 minute flush with pure water to drains----
If your membranes are really fouled out a more drastic and potentially harmful to your membrane wash can performed
for muriatic acid wash- drain the ENTIRE ro system---heat up about 5 gallons of water to 100 degrees---start recirculating water through system slowly adding acid until ph reaches 2-3---then recirculate for 20 min--let soak for 20 min---recirculate for 20 min and then drain ENTIRE ro system completely-- completely--now flush system with pure water to drains for 20 minutes-then change pre-filter with new one and run another 20 minute flush with pure water to drains----

This is all the information I could get out of Bill last year on cleaning membranes. After sending membranes to leader after last maple season I had clean membranes to start the year. Now this year problems with low pressure pump... Bill sent me a new 220 volt pump to replace my 110 volt pump which he told me was the wrong pump for a 5000. Turns out mine was only 5000 ever built with that pump. I ran 7500 gallons through it last year with other pump and plumbed to his specs and when problems started this year he told me it was plumbed wrong. Now he tells me that by trying to recirculate sap to "high concentration" of over 10 brix I'm causing the problems. I also now know that for what I need out of a RO to buy a maple dealer RO would have been better. From what I have been told from Bill it seems like he is learning through our problems with the systems what the problems of these systems are and what they are capable of.

[wiam]

So...... you guys bought the prototypes?

[farmermike]

Thanks for the information, guess I was doing it wrong.
Mike

[backyardsugarer]

They were not prototypes. They are very basic units with limited capabilities built by a guy who has no maple backgorund or knowledge (just found that one out). It's funny he told you 10% was causing the problem because he told me at 8% I was the reason I was having problems. Bottom Line:
Good machine for small producers that like to RO sap between 6% and 7%
I paid $2800 for my unit shipped 2 years ago. It has helped me make 4 times the amount of syrup that I could without it so it more than paid for itself the first two weeks last year.

I am simply not satisfied with Bill and his answers. It always seems to be my fault/problem and more importantly expense when I follow the manufatureres advice on cleaning and maitenance and have a problem.

I will be looking to sell mine after this year to someone that wants a small simple RO to make about 100 gallons to 150 gallons of syrup with. I want to make 300 gallons plus per year so I need to pay for a real maple RO now.

Chris

[jimandchuck]

Agreed / Bill is limited and he would tell you he started making these units to help out some friends. IMHO the support is weak but the unit I have, a 5000 works good. Had to figure out some of the wiring etc but she works ok. Saving me alot of wood which equals work and time.
I do have a wash question. Initial wash is alkaline, then the manual doesn't really say if or when an acid wash with citric acid should be done. I figure the end of the season or when the membranes start to run over 200 + psi. What do you do?

[mountain man maple]

ok I have a question on the ro system. The solenoid switch before high pressure pump what is the purpose it in? I also want to put a low pressure cutout switch on the feed pump so when tank is empty it shuts itself off. Does anyone know what type of switch to get for this?

[gmcooper]

For the lowpressure shut off swtch you are looking for I do not have the part number here but if you talk with a plumbing suppy company and tell them what you need the switch to do they can tell you the switch. It might be the exact switch that controls the high pressure pump.
Mark

[danno]

ok I have a question on the ro system. The solenoid switch before high pressure pump what is the purpose it in? I also want to put a low pressure cutout switch on the feed pump so when tank is empty it shuts itself off. Does anyone know what type of switch to get for this?

You want a REVERSE pressure switch like the one in this link - http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/SQUARE-D-Pressure-Switch-2PXW2?Pid=search

Standard pressure switches are set to switch on (turn pumps on) when pressure drops. Reverse action switches off (turns pumps off) when pressures drop. There is a small hose (1/4" maybe) that comes out the back of the switch that you plumb into your sap line. Best place to install it is between your prefilter and high pressure pump (I'm assuming your prefilter is between your high pressure pump and feed pump). If you plumb the 1/4" hose before your prefilter and your prefilter clogs, there is still pressure on the switch and thus pumps won't kick off even though HP pump is running dry.

Both pumps should be wired into the reverse pressure switch. Your feed pump will have to deliver enough PSI to engage the pressure switch and keep it on (min 25 psi, 50 is much better). The manu RO's also come with a timer installed - the way this works - if pressure drops in your system so the reverse pressure switch will kick off your system, the timer builds in an automatic delay (can be set between 1-10 seconds) in the event the pressure drop was just a low spike, the pumps won't kick off.

[Brent]

You should be monitoring your acid and soap washing ph levels -(use ph strips)
your start reading should be about 7 or 8-- for citric acid wash- drain the ENTIRE ro system---heat up about 5 gallons of water to 100 degrees---start recirculating water through system slowly adding acid until ph reaches 2-3---then recirculate for 20 min--let soak for 20 min---recirculate for 20 min and then drain ENTIRE ro system completely-- completely--now run wash solution through ro for 20 minutes - let soak for 20 minutes- then drain soap soltion- now flush system with pure water to drains for 20 minutes-then change pre-filter with new one and run another 20 minute flush with pure water to drains----
If your membranes are really fouled out a more drastic and potentially harmful to your membrane wash can performed
for muriatic acid wash- drain the ENTIRE ro system---heat up about 5 gallons of water to 100 degrees---start recirculating water through system slowly adding acid until ph reaches 2-3---then recirculate for 20 min--let soak for 20 min---recirculate for 20 min and then drain ENTIRE ro system completely-- completely--now flush system with pure water to drains for 20 minutes-then change pre-filter with new one and run another 20 minute flush with pure water to drains----

This is all the information I could get out of Bill last year on cleaning membranes. After sending membranes to leader after last maple season I had clean membranes to start the year. Now this year problems with low pressure pump... Bill sent me a new 220 volt pump to replace my 110 volt pump which he told me was the wrong pump for a 5000. Turns out mine was only 5000 ever built with that pump. I ran 7500 gallons through it last year with other pump and plumbed to his specs and when problems started this year he told me it was plumbed wrong. Now he tells me that by trying to recirculate sap to "high concentration" of over 10 brix I'm causing the problems. I also now know that for what I need out of a RO to buy a maple dealer RO would have been better. From what I have been told from Bill it seems like he is learning through our problems with the systems what the problems of these systems are and what they are capable of.

There arer some suggestions here about adding preheated water that are contrary to the DOW web site about avoiding thermal shock.
We run sap through at 40 ish degrees then add 100 deg pre-heated water. Not a good idea. Furthermore it is quite surprising what DOW says about increasing the pressure on your membranes, we should be taking many minutes to crank up the pressure. I don't thing this is common practice in sap shacks.

Furthermore, more maple RO systems get fouled with bio-film that requires only basic, not acidic washes. An acid wash or two should normally only be done at the end of the season, to get rid of the mineral build up.