Need help

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Here's what I have. I have 3 sugarbushes and the collecting of the one bush is a major problem. Due to the area being very wet and swampy, it is more like impossible getting thru it. I have a very good tubing system to the area and I have aprox 145 to 150 taps. There is a fence that goes thru the middle and the trees are on property belonging to two different people one of which is a family member. Nearly all of the trees are well spaced and young healthy fast growing sugars between 10 and 20 inches. I scoped out the area and there is another aprox 50 to 60 taps I can add for next year as I have been too busy and put off adding them in the past.

Here is what I have in mind and I need some opinions. I am planning to run about 1600' of 3/4" pipe underground aproximately 12 to 18 inches deep which is below frostline here. Here is where there are some issues--there would be a little slope on the entire line, but there is only 6 to 8 feet of drop for the entire 1600'. To me, this won't be a problem as the trees are 10 to 100 feet above the end of the mainline, so they should provide plenty of head pressure to push the sap down. The good thing is that the temp underground would be very cool and no sun can hit the mainline so the sap should stay cool. Will this work?? If so, should I vent the mainline next the the end with a vent pipe about 10 to 15 feet above the mainline??

If this doesn't work, I can set two tanks in the woods and pump the sap down to the road. I have a small Tanaka and it only weighs about 10 lbs, so to me, it would still be a ton better to pump it down to the road thru this pipe vs dealing with what I have been.

Ideas and opinions appreciated. :D

[ennismaple]

The cooling effect would be a definite plus but washing it and blowing out the line after the season would be a bit of a pain. I'd recommend you put is above ground and use your transfer pump from you tank in the swamp. This way you can get some more fall on the line (8ft over 1600 is only 0.5% average fall). Since the sap will spend very little time in this transfer line the temperature effect will be negligible.

Just my $0.02 (Cdn of course!)

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Help he asked for- I would have the mainline running in the air from the bottom of the hill/road to a tank placed at the lowest taps on the hillsides mainline end.Now put the mainline going downhill to the road so that it is sucking at the bottom of the tank(might have to just barely tilt the tank so you get it all) and use your tanaka with a quick connect at the road for suction to lift the sap up over the tanks edge and then its all down hill from there with your days run all pumped into your tractors bulk tank-(You'll then know when that tank up in the woods is pumped dry). Undergorund without any pitch is bad=spots for sap to settle as you would spend weeks otherwise getting the grade right.

If you was thinking about the underground mainlines like Thompson's in Orford, N.H. i'd guess it close to 10% most of the way and some spots 20% about on your hands and knees near the top of the Mtn.

[Russell Lampron]

Brandon I would run the pipe above ground. If you have a leak or blockage under ground it would be difficult to find or fix. You wouldn't want to have dig up a 1600' pipe in the middle of sugaring season to fix a problem when you don't have much time as it is.

Russ

[royalmaple]

Brandon-

One thing that comes to mind is not necessarily maple related but digging the 1600 foot trench could be a job in itself. I am pretty effecient with an excavator and trying to set grade in a trench that long could be pretty difficult but even if you get this done. I see a problem when you back fill. You never know what you are going to come across when digging and you would have to watch for rocks etc etc that would cause mini sags bumps in the line that you would never see once it is done. Even if you took the time to haul in yards and yards of fresh sand, you may still run into the same ordeal. Then you drive across the trench with your tractor or excavator and compact a spot and who knows what underground looks like.

If you were running a power line or water line it would be much more forgiving. But I guess you could run conduit, at least that would be much more rigid. It should run about 3-4 bucks for a 10 foot stick.

I am certainly far from an expert on sap, but just something to consider.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Kevin,

Would the Tanaka pull suction 1600' away??

[royalmaple]

Brandon-

I was also thinking if you did go with the underground main line, you can rent a ditch witch for your tractor and just cut a trench pretty easily with that. I would recommend using the one that will attach to your three point hitch and pto driven. The units you can rent that you walk behind do work but hold on, if you hit something they can really beat the hell out of you.

Just a thought.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Matt,

Really good idea, I didn't know they made something like that. Haven't decided yet what to do, waiting on more input. :?

[royalmaple]

The ditch witch can be rented at most any rental company, at least up here. Home depot has the walk behind in their tool rental section. Personally I'd try to get the pto attachment for the tractor.

Just like a big chain saw to cut the ground, very aggressive.

Alot of people use them for irrigation work also.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Brandon- Now that i got a few minutes to monkey with today-i can post something back to your? now that i've tune into the trader today. Not really knowing/but a good educated answer(99.9%) is i believe it will. Most sap transfer pumps i would imagine have a 20'+ lift if primed well? so i would say it should be able to do that task of lifting sap up say 2' above the rim of the tank and when you get the siphon going you wouldn't need the pump then-But i would still let the pump do the work.

Going back to the big straw/little straw theory=I'll give you an idea of this test someone should try and it will tell you if it will do it?
Hook (3) 500' coils of 3/4" pipe together stacked upon each other(Which will be about 3' high) off the end of the top coil run a peice of hose into a pail of water on the floor 8-12" deep of water. Now on the bottom coils end hook it up to your pump and prime the pump good. Start the pump up and if it draws the water up out of the pail you know it will work.

You may want to try the coils up about a foot or two off the floor that way if it does the 5' lift it will certainly do the 2' or so you need in real lift. I have the coils to do the test with but my tanaka is a TCP-381 which is the 1 1/2" pump and i would guess you have the TCP-210 1" tanaka?? Maybe Parker can do the test as he had a 1" pump/don't know if he had 3 coils left or not?
If you have the 1/2" pipe around you could try it with that.(Might have to use your mainline already in the woods?).

Another story i could tell you/But to keep this shorter i would add a valve on the bottom end of that suction mainline at the road as i had a simular experience where i lost about 100 gals. of sap on the sugarhouse floor one day because of the sap falling into the tank from the releaser caused the sap to "Jump Rim" and flow out my sight tube which was drooped up over the tanks edge and into the sap inside the tank. Now this was beyond the closed valve at the tanks outlet and out the other end that i had disconnected from my head tank pump-so it wasn't a closed system.

[Fred Henderson]

When I built my house I had a little Homelite pump 2 stroke that I pumped water out of the creek with. Even though I was not pumping vertical I had over 100 of 1" hooked to it and the suction lift was less than 2 feet. If I figured the vertical lift it would have been over 50 ft. At 100 ft I had a garden hose hooked to it with all kinds of pressure, but I have no idea what my GPM/H's were.

[SUGARSMITH]

I have to agree on the nightmare of getting the perfect slope, with a backhoe, shovel or ditchwitchy. Pipes always move whaen backfilled too.

Is there a posibility of burying or stringing electricity out to there ? Is so how about a collection tank with sumppump ? You could bury the main tank 2/3 9 keeping the sap fresh, and push the sap however high you need and let gravity take over with a steep slope. With the steep slope, the line would evacuate comepletely.

The only possible issue migh be voltage line drop for 1600 feet. Or maybe it would be a small fortune. Just another way to look at it.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

The biggest concern is that there will be sags in the pipe that sap will lay in and go bad. Guess I had better look into something else. I am thinking about pumping up a hill right bedside my tank and unrolling a line on top of the ground and letting gravity push it down the hill to the tractor and then roll it up at the end of the year. Either that, or run 1600' of pipe in the air. :?