Front Pan Losing Heat

[royalmaple]

Hello-

I just got my 18X66 D&G set up and rolling. I have been burning pallets and ripping right through them and it has been getting really hot. Back drop flue pan is running like mad, first compartment off that in the syrup pan does boil well also, but seems the front section has some trouble keepking the boil. I got it to do well last night, but when I went outside I looked up and I was shooting flames out the stack, which is 12 feet stock stack that came with the unit.

Would it help to add a damper? One didn't come with the rig but I can add one pretty easily if this will help keep the front of the pan hotter.

I don't think it was the fires problem, could hardly stand infront of the arch too long before my pants felt like they were melting.

[markcasper]

Did you try cutting the draft down? (closing draft door) If you had flames coming out the chimmney, then you had so much draft that it was just pulling it right from the front of your pan.

When I had a 2x6 years ago, I found it sometimes hard to keep the pans boiling properly. I fiddled and faddled with the wood and basically have found out that a larger evaporator is a breeze to run compared to a smaller one. I have a 4x12 now.

If your burning soft wood pallets, they are bone dry and creatre an amazingly hot fire, the more heat, the more draft you will get-naturally, which is pulling your flames right out from under the front pan. A damper in your case, would be a good idea I believe. It sure wouldn't hurt and if it doesn;t help, then just leave it open. Mark

[royalmaple]

Mark-

Yes, pallets are bone dry, and just really rip.

It is very very hot, but I think you are right and it is just pulling flames right up the stack.

I did try closing the draft doors but with an open ash pit design, it really doesn't shut the air off completely, seems just about as much air comes from under the ash pit. Maybe slightly less but still roars.

I'll pick up a damper and see what this does tonight.

[markcasper]

Royal maple, Now that i have thought about it. One time I had a neighbor firing for me on my current 4x12 while i was out back unloading sap or washing tanks. I heard this amzing roar and realized that I had flames comiing out of my 25 foot tall stack!! For some reason he fired with ALL small bone dry box elder. I guess he didn't know not to do this for as I always mix some small and some large. Well my front pan wwasn't boiling that well that time either. It seems that if your using small wood such as pallets, its best to mix them in with some coarser stuff to avoid getting a rip-roaring fire such as what you do.

It seems there gets to be a secondary flow of heat going on, kind of like a jet stream and is avoiding the pan all together. I think a damper would be very good thing to buy. Mark

[royalmaple]

I also have slabs that are not 100% dry and some are from more green wood freshly sawn timber.

I know that trying to burn them didn't result in quite the fire but I may mix some in and add the damper and see what happens.

I also found that splitting the slabs helps. Seems they are just too wide and cover too much surface area and block the heat from coming up. Just a pain in the A$$ splitting slabs.

See what happens tonight. Finally getting some sweet stuff in the front pan last night, took about 8 hours or so to really see some "close to syrup" stuff in the front.

I was drawing off and dumping in the flue section to keep it moving and create a separation in the pans.

[markcasper]

Matt, I'll have to say that a larger evaporator is a bit more forgiving than a small one. Throw in a piece of dripping wet wood in a large evaporator and youd' never know it. Throw it in a small one and it'll be another hour to your boiling time. Have you tried putting your slabs in vertically? I fnd this to help much better and may cut down on the splitting that you are doing. If you stack the slabs in like bricks, you will not get air to the wood and will result in a slow boil. Better to put small amounts of wood in more often, rather than large amounts less often. Mark

[royalmaple]

I'll try standing them up. Just have to mix something in to keep them upright.

I have been putting in wood quite frequently and not as much when I do put wood in. Seems to keep the heat more constant.

Well see how this year goes and perhaps bigger for next year. I am just happy to have a rig operating. Fine tuning is one thing, when at least you have the basics happening.

This rig is only 1 week old so, hopefully get it fine tuned this year and take it from there.

I see what you mean about the larger rigs, larger firebox, taller so you are not on your hands and knees loading it etc.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Matt,

Get you a piece of metal and stand it in front of the ash pit or use it to adjust draft and see if this helps. With rocket fuel like that, you don't need a lot of draft. :)

[MASSEY JACK]

I am tall so I hate getting on my knees to feed the firebox. I made a skid out of 6 inch channel iron so I can move my evaporator with a forklift. I also put it up on 2 inch patio blocks with sand under them to level it.( I am boiling in a makeshift shelter because I have no sugarhouse yet). The result is a taller evaporator. I thought it might be too high but I have found it easier to fire. When I build my sugarhouse I will put in the traditional pit in front of the firebox for ease of loading wood. You may want to jack up your evaporator and you can use sand or the old ashes to seal off the openings under your arch for now to slow down your draft.

[Lance]

After watching a guy boiling on a 5x14 the other day, I was amazed at how easy and smooth it was compared to our 2x6! He'd leave the firing doors open for 30 sec. or more when he fired and that thing would get back to a high boil almost immediately when he shut the doors. He started dawing off a light golden brown liquid that was lighter than our sap coming out of the flue pan!! I couldn't believe it was syrup 'til I looked at the hydrometer myself. Beautiful fancy syrup! How big does the evap have to be before it becomes so much easier and more forgiving? Is a 3x8 as easy and smooth as that 5x14? or do you have to get up into 4x, etc.?

[brookledge]

One thing to keep in mind is that you don't want to block off the air coming into the draft door to much because your grates need the cool air coming in to prevent them from warping. also keep the ashes cleaned out underneath.
As far as making light syrup large evaporators do make it easier. But a small one with a R.O. will make light syrup also. The bottom line is how long the sap is in the evaporator boiling. Small units just can't boil it fast enough to make as light as you could on a larger one.
Keith

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

The biggest key is to get the sap thru the evap asap. I have a 2x8 and have no trouble making light syrup. It takes about 20 gallon to fill it to the 1" level and I can run 50 to 60 gph thru it when it is hot with the inferno arch.

[royalmaple]

Just had a close call. Uploaded some new pics so people can see my current set up.

If you notice the outside bulk tank that I gravity feed into my flowbox. Well tonight I was cranking through the sap and I noticed my levels were going down in a hurry, but my bulk tank was full. So I checked the float and it was not stuck and nothing coming out, so I grabbed the torch and warmed up the line but the line was not frozen. The Whole bulk tank was frozen solid. Glad I had some sap in the bottom holding tank and the fire was not on crank, so I got it under control and just let it die out and hopefully thaw tomorrow. Gives you an idea of how cold it is up here tonight.

I just pumped to the tank not 1/2 hour before.

Anyway, I noticed a couple of things tonight and wanted to see if anyone had any input. I got a 0-50 dial thermometer and set it up in boiling water and so on first, but I notice it takes an act of god to get to boiling water when I can see the sap / syrup is boiling. For example. Here is what the sap looked like in the first compartment from the drawoff:
http://www.diecastwarehouse.com/fp1.jpg

And at the same time I shot the temp guage:
http://www.diecastwarehouse.com/fp2.jpg

I had previously tested the solution and it was not holding the hydrometer off the bottom of the cup, so I know it was not ready yet, but isn't boiling sap, boiling sap? Highest I have ever been able to get this up to is 215 on this guage, so it does get above zero, but not for long

I noticed that if the wind blew the guage was effected, granted it feels like 500 below tonight so that could have something to do with it, but shouldn't this read 0 when I see bubbles in the pan?

I have the sap about 1 inch deep. Also I noticed that I may have to readjust the level of the evaporator. Seems to be leaning back and to the right hand side a bit, I wonder if this is where my syrup is going? I have not been able to draw anything off yet and I have gone through about 125-150 gallons of sap. There has got to be some syrup somewhere in there.

I tested some sap today and seems I am getting 1.5. Anyone else in the same boat? At this % wouldn't I have to boil 57+ gallons to get 1 gallon of syrup? 86 / 1.5.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Matt,

Is your D&G have the thermometer full submerged or does it go in the sap at a 45 degree angle?

If it goes in at a 45 degree angle, expect go draw off at about 10 degrees above boiling, not 7 degrees since the stem of the thermometer will be steam heated. Also, wind will affect this setup as well.

Just boiled 450 gallons of 1.5, so don't feel bad... :wink:

Brian

[royalmaple]

Yes, guage goes in at 45 degree angle. I put the guage in hand tight, even though there are more threads it seems that it will not go in anymore, so I didn't force it. And at the same time it is not bottoming out in the pan either. I would say it is strong 1/4 - 3/8 above the bottom of the pan. So when I run at roughly 1 inch deep it is immersed in the syrup, but does not take much to have it barely touch the syrup.

I wanted to get it deeper in the syrup, but seems that it just can't. And at 70.00 for the guage, I didn't want to break it.

It is 1/4 thread x 12 inches long.

[royalmaple]

Also for this year I am setting up shop in my old ice shack. Leaves much to be desired but heck of a lot better than being outside. Especially on a night like last night.

I took some boards off the sides to get some air flow, but I wonder if I am cooling off the shack too much and also cooling off the outside of the evaporator as well. For the roof we used 3 sheets of metal roofing, and I unscrewed the center section and slid it to the side when I boil to give the steam somewhere to go. I wonder if I have too much open area and I am cooling off everything too much.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Matt,

Might hurt a little, but not much. I boiled in a building with one side completely open for years and I can't notice hardly any difference this year. :?

[royalmaple]

Thanks, maybe it would be better to boil a bit deeper to get a better reading on the guage?

Also I think I have to relevel the rig, If it is out of level wouldn't my syrup head down hill in this case to the fue pans?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Really ought to check the level. If the evaporator is off much, syrup is not going to flow thru it properly and you may start making syrup in the wrong place on your front pan and then you have problems. :?

[NH Maplemaker]

Matt, If you are boiling with a dirt floor, you should check your level before every boil and every now and then while you are boiling!! If the heat fron evaporater should thaw the ground under it while you are boiling,you will have a real problem in a hurry!! Been there, done that!! I don't miss that problem.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Wind doesn't make a difference if your thermometer is full submerged (i.e. Leader evap).

It might if you have a D&G with no steam hood. My thermometer is always only hand tight.

Definately a disadvantage with this design. The advantage is that i can unscrew my thermometer any time and recalibrate in the rear pan if the barometric pressure is changing.

[royalmaple]

My shack does have a wood floor but I am just on some sand / mud and even though I had it level with freeze thaw going on, the whole shack moves I am sure during the course of the day or days.

I just got it level again, It was off a bit left - right but was probably 1/4 inch favoring the back. So I would have to say that the more dense material would flow back into the flue pan at least once the fire died out and gravity took over.

Sap is frozen solid in my holding tank and overhead tank so no boiling tonight.

I can't believe even on a day like today with highs in the very low 30's the trees did kick out some small amounts of sap. I bet the next warm day we have should allow the trees to explode. They want to run pretty bad.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Matt,

Might would to put some heating tape on the overhead tank if it has any valves coming out of it. Those valves will sure freeze and bust. I have a 320 gallon Lappiere feed tank 6' in the air and I have about 20' of heat tape all over the underside and the valve. I didn't keep sap in it at all this year as I now have a 625 gallon milk tank right beside it. If that valve freezes and busts will a full tank of sap overnight, you have big problems. The tanks will always freeze around the outside, so with the heating tape on it, it will keep the sap thawed out where it will run out the valve so you can boil. It is amazing how good it works! :D

[royalmaple]

Thanks, can I just get this tape at home depot for example? And wrap the tank itself or just the copper pipe feeding the flow box?

When you shut down for the night, do your pans stay separated? So you still have pretty much distinct separations between pans / compartments?

I was thinking I should plug the holes up with the plugs so that the syrup or close to syrup would stay in the front pan. maybe since I have it level now it will stay better, but seems like it is pretty well mixed now.

Also when I start up say tomorrow, will I need to do anything special to get the more dense syrup to the front of the pan, if it is in the back section of the flue pan or just mixed throughout?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

You can pick up the tape anywhere. Around $ 25 for 20' and you can get a little shorter pieces I think. As far as plugs, with a drop flue, you can plug both front boxes and this will prevent anything from going back into the flue pan. Don't matter much to me because it will come right back out the next day after you get the evaporator up and going.

[royalmaple]

Thanks,

So the syrup or close to syrup will come to the front when I start the boil?

It seems like that is what happened the other night as well but I was not sure. Flue pans do look more like boiling clear sap when it gets rolling, just didn't know if I should draw some off and dump in the back pan to get things going or not?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Matt,

Never dump any into the back pan. Once it comes into the front pan, you would to keep it there for good until you draw it off. When you shut down for the night, leave everything as is. It is a good idea if you start up the next day with anything over the level you would normally run to plug off both sides of the syrup pan. What happens is the back pan will start boiling off a lot faster than the front pan and in order for the level to stay the same in the evaporator, the front pan will start running back into the rear pan until it gets down to the level that the raw sap starts coming in. :?

Hope this makes sense. The higher the sugar content in the front pan when you shut down, the sooner you draw off the next day! :D

[royalmaple]

thanks, I'll give it a shot tomorrow if things thaw out, and I can get sap to run out of the overhead tank.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Matt,

Set a heater under it for a few hours. Even make like a curtain all around the tank down to the floor out of a couple of blankets to really help heat it up. An oil filled radiator heater plugs into the wall and works great. That is one tank that would be best if you could keep empty when not boiling. Not a good idea to leave sap in it if at all possible because it takes so long for ice to melt and you will need to boil but still have a tank full of ice. :?

[sweetwoodmaple]

I try not to leave sap in my overhead tank. I always store elsewhere until ready to boil, then only put what I will boil in there.

If all else fails and I run short on time while boiling, I get it down to where I can put the rest in the evaporator. Better to get ICY there than in the tank.

[royalmaple]

I'll try the blanket and heater technique.

I was keeping just enough for an hour or so of boiling and I just click on the bildge pump to pump more into the overhead tank when I saw it was low through the window in the shack.

I know it would be better to have the tank inside but for this year there is barely enough room for me and the evaporator in the shack.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Matt,

Don't need it inside but would be a good idea to have some heat tape on the valve and the feeder line coming into the building. I couldn't count on both hands how many times I have been boiling and the temps was in single digits, teens or 20's the last two years. :?

[royalmaple]

Will do-

I think I am going out and running some more 5/16 line today got another 50ish taps I can put in out back, and want to get them in before the flood gates open up later this week. Looks like tues or wed should start the pattern for at least a week n 1/2.

Then tape up the lines and boil what I got ready to go.

hopefully draw off some good stuff too, since I must have about 2 gallons in there ready to come out now the unit is level again.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Matt,

Keep up the good work. You will be a pro by the end of the season! :D :wink: