Can I Store Sap In Trash Barrels?

[Jhuff8181]

New to the forum. This will be my second year making syrup. Last year I only made about two quarts. This year I hope to make about 10 quarts. I need to increase my sap storage. Can I use new plastic garbage cans?

[Starting Small]

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?11044-Garbage-Can-told-hold-sap&highlight=garbage check out this thread

[spencer11]

there not food grade but i dont see why not. i did last year. look for a plastic 55 gallon drum if you can get one use that.

spencer

[DrTimPerkins]

Can I use new plastic garbage cans?

NO. Not unless you like to potentially have plastic resins, phenols, heavy metals, and other such things in your sap and syrup.

[spencer11]

i would listen to Dr. tim. he knows more about this than i do. i would defentaly listen to him.

specer

[CBOYER]

NO. Not unless you like to potentially have plastic resins, phenols, heavy metals, and other such things in your sap and syrup.

Yes...if you like to have childrens with 3 eyes, and palmed hands..

[backyard sugaring]

Jhuff, Not sure where you live in NH you can get food grade buckets from Stonefield Yogurt, if you know anyone who works at the Bud Plant they have many containers all food grade and Free. I would stay away from anything that is not food grade. Good Luck Lee

[maple flats]

Trash barrels made from recycled plastic. Those plastics may have had any number of nasties in them and you can easily get some residue into your syrup. Use any thing labeled food grade that is either new or you can be absolutely certain of it's history. Be safe and make great syrup.

[oneoldsap]

As long as you use trash cans that are labled , food grade , you should be fine ! Sic.

[emo]

My father-in-law says that you can use standard trash bags, don't use the scent control or specialized bags. He worked in dairy sanitation most of his career and said that the bags are manufactured in a sterile enviroment. Used to work in a movie theater and we stored the leftover pop corn in trach bags until the next day, then mix them back in with new pop corn.

[CBOYER]

My father-in-law says that you can use standard trash bags, don't use the scent control or specialized bags. He worked in dairy sanitation most of his career and said that the bags are manufactured in a sterile enviroment. Used to work in a movie theater and we stored the leftover pop corn in trach bags until the next day, then mix them back in with new pop corn.

Remember me to never go eat in Ohio if your Authorities permit something like this...

[happy thoughts]

..... the bags are manufactured in a sterile enviroment.

Rat poison could be made in a sterile environment. That doesn't mean you want it in your food or touching it.

It's not about sterile. Anything can be made sterile and not all the methods used for sterilizing things are necessarily good for you to eat. it's about being made from materials that are known to be absolutely, positively safe for food storage.

Anything marketed specifically for garbage should tell you something right there.

[highlandcattle]

FOOD GRADE FOLKS!!!! Maple syrup is something you eat! That's why all the new regulations will begin, because of stuff like this! Do things right or not at all, MY opinion. This is why we are becoming as self-sufficient as possible, so we aren't eating more garbage, literally! Please, if you want it for yourself, i guess anyone can do whatever, but once you put it out there for the public.....

[PerryW]

you can use them but don't tell anyone on Maple Trader.:evil:

[packrat]

Find yourself a beekeeper they have 55 gal. drums that are sealed inside. They have a lid you can take off to dip it out. I am going to borrow 2 to haul sap in.

[maple maniac65]

My father-in-law says that you can use standard trash bags, don't use the scent control or specialized bags. He worked in dairy sanitation most of his career and said that the bags are manufactured in a sterile enviroment. Used to work in a movie theater and we stored the leftover pop corn in trach bags until the next day, then mix them back in with new pop corn.

Ok I am the one that is going to say it "I am glad that I do not go to the movies in OHIO"

[ren46]

Make sure they are NSF certified for food contact. I have some 32 Gal. Brute trash cans made by Rubbermaid that are NSF STD. 2 Food Contact. If you can find them in white that would be good as mine are dark gray so I have to keep them shaded from the sun to keep my sap cool.

25 taps
Homemade block arch rig
Kubota 3430
Stihl 361
Husqvarna 350
A wife that enjoys sugaring
Owls and Coyotes to listen to while boiling into the evening

[Clarkfield Farms]

Agreed with ren46. They are widely used as primary fermentation vessels among winemakers. NSF, FOOD GRADE, #2 plastic Brute* containers from Rubbermaid are made from the same materials as the plastic bottles you bottle your syrup in, I contacted (so did about a dozen other folks that I know) Rubbermaid to find out for certain before acting on the advice of maybe 100 others who said the same thing. I didn't want ANYTHING leaching into the contents which would be consumed. They (Rubbermaid) were emphatic about using virgin, food-grade material. They're great for storing grains, too. I wait until they're at about $26 (including lid!) or less at Lowe's for the 32-gallon size. And, they are stamped "FOOD GRADE."

I know I may get a lot of grief for promoting this here. It's a topic that's been literally hashed to death elsewhere on other sites and it really never gets put to rest. But I WILL stand by my statement that, with one proviso**, the FOOD GRADE Brute* containers are OK for temporary storage for sap.

**Proviso: If you're an illegal moonshiner, these containers (and pretty much all plastic containers, food grade or not) WILL leach undesirable substances into higher-proof ethanol, i.e., above 18% ABV (36 proof). But, I figure if you ARE one, you've got a lot more and far more serious problems to think about than these containers. :)

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

what are you going to store the garbage in?

[Maplewalnut]

I guarantee none of the winemakers that distribute wine commercially use trash cans as a fermentation vessel. Do you think Rubbermaid would give you that in writing.....????? My feeling is there are plenty of better cheap options out there (even free) if you look around.

[Starting Small]

I went to some schools and asked the cafeteria for 5 gallon buckets, they had a bunch just sitting around and were happy to give them to me. Especially the high school. Yes I have a bunch of 5 gallon buckets around my barn now but I know for sure they are safe and are 100% free. Most with lids to.

[happy thoughts]

Agreed with ren46. They are widely used as primary fermentation vessels among winemakers. NSF, FOOD GRADE, #2 plastic Brute* containers from Rubbermaid are made from the same materials as the plastic bottles you bottle your syrup in

and yet the rubbermaid site does not recommend them for wine making. see the FAQ link
http://www.rubbermaidcommercial.com/rcp/products/detail.jsp?rcpNum=2655

"Can I store wine or other juices in this container?

This container is not recommended for wine or juice applications due to the polyethylene material. Polyethylenes are not good vapor barrier and could affect the taste of the contents due to oxidizing."

It is also not made from the same material as plastic syrup jugs. The trash cans are made from LLDPE per the rubbermaid web site. The syrup jugs I have are marked HDPE. And those jugs made from higher density resins are known to cause degradation of syrup quality in just a few months time. I'd expect the degradation to occur even more quickly in those trash cans even if used just for sap. New jugs on the market can be had with vapor barriers which I'm going to assume helps slow that process. The bottom line may be that all food safe containers are not created equal.

[justahobby]

I have a bunch of lightly used water softener brine tanks. My dad owns a plumbing shop and has a huge pile of used ones laying around. They hold about 35 gallons each, come with a tight fitting cover too. I assume they are necessarily food safe because the brine comes in contact with the mineral in the softener which then contacts the drinking water. They all have cleaned up real easy - I do fill them with water for a day or two and let any remaining salt leech out of the walls (boiling sap would concentrate the salt). They are convenient to store equipment inside of during the off-season too.

Ask your local plumber.

[Dill]

you can use them but don't tell anyone on Maple Trader.:evil:
Exactly. Do whatever you want. The advice on here will be not to use trash barrels.

[bowtie]

even if you give your syrup to friends or use it your self why would you want to chance ingesting the things dr. perkins listed, we have all done and eaten questionable things but if you are asking the question then you should follow the experts advice. i worry about galv buckets and next year will not be using any, switching to all aluminum buckets. if it's not food grade you should not bother, why take a chance, don't we take enough chances just getting in our vehicle, and eating the rest of the crap found at supermarkets.

[Clarkfield Farms]

The reason that you state for not recommending these for winemaking is a bit misleading, I clearly stated "They are widely used as primary fermentation vessels;" I don't feel like going into primary versus secondary fermentation details.... but what the hey. FIRST, "Primary fermentation" usually lasts only from as little as 4 to as long as 12 or so days, the time depends on a LOT of factors. SECOND, it's during this phase that you want an OPEN container, EXPOSED TO THE AIR/OXYGEN, for the yeast to have as much O2 as possible and also to let off the incredible amounts of CO2 that they produce; in other words, oxidation is not at all a concern during primary fermentation. It's DESIRABLE. Well, sort of; it's during this phase that the yeast prevent "oxidation," per se, in that they need O2 for reproduction. It's not necessarily correct to say that yeast "make" alcohol, as in an excretion, but rather that they strip off the O2 from the long chain sugar molecules and leave - ta-dah! - ethanol behind. You only cover the primary vessel with cloth to keep the bugs and critters out; red wines and most so-called "fruit wines" (ONLY grapes, or "fruit of the 'vine'," can actually be called "wine" but hey we're Americans. :)) produce a cap that needs to be punched down and stirred back into the vessel at least a couple of times per day, so it's very convenient to have an open container for this purpose as well. THIRD, it's during the secondary fermentation stage that you put an airlock on things to, in essence, "starve" the billions of yeast cells from O2 and force them to convert (a long, complicated process not relevant to this discussion) from using available O2 in solution and from the atmosphere to instead having to strip the O2 from the sugars. It is this Secondary Fermentation phase where you do not allow the entry of ANY O2, and the CO2 produced is kept in the vessel to prevent oxidation. This secondary fermentation vessel is almost always either a glass carboy of an appropriate size to limit headspace, or gap between the top of the fermenting must and the bottom of the airlock, to a minimum, or in an also appropriate size stainless steel container (neither glass nor stainless steel are gas-permeable, that's why they're preferred); the CO2 "blanket" that is created in this headspace keeps O2, which is unwanted during this phase, out of the equation. The nature of the BRUTE, and I'm ONLY talking about them here, right?, container does in fact, as do almost ALL (I think maybe all?) plastic containers, including the PET plastic, or by trade name "BetterBottles," allow O2 permeation; even the BetterBottles are NOT recommended for long term storage, for the sole reason of gaseous permeability and the resulting oxidation of the wine. I mean, right there is another sub-category of what may be regarded as misleading information, GASEOUS PERMEABILTY, which of course includes Oxygen, and thereby causing Oxidation: This is an UNDESRIABLE OUTCOME, NOT the introduction of a foreign, or hazardous, or toxic substance or entity! And Holy MOLEY, I didn't know that sap oxidation over the VERY short storage time was such an alarming issue! FOURTH, ... I mean, for the love of God, exactly how long do you intend to store SAP anyways? You state, "...in a few months time..." Huh?!?!?! OK, store sap in ANYTHING for a few months and I betcha you haven't GOT sap anymore. Slime, mold, or if you're astronomically lucky as all get out MAYBE spontaneous acerglyn. Which you WILL then need be concerned about oxidation... Sorry, I thought I was being as thorough as possible in my caveats and explanations when I was clearly, narrowly postulating the LIMITED benefits of the BRUTE* (NOT ALL) containers. And yeah, I know what they're website says, but I've talked with live people there and it's a very different story, or at least it used to be. CYA stuff and all.... If not for relating actual experiences, what good are replies to any questions, here or elsewhere? I love and live by the old adage: "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with a theory." All I'm getting at is that I, and thousands of others, HAVE and DO use the BRUTE* brand of food grade containers for SHORT TERM PURPOSES without any negative issues whatsoever.

Great. Another site where there may never be an end to this subject. Happy, this is not directed at you in any way, nor at anyone in general or in particular. You're top-notch and from everything you've posted that I've ever read you always have been. It's just frustrating to try to come to agreement on this; I very much agree that plastic in general and usually trash cans in particular are absolutely NOT acceptable; however, well I've gone way overboard on this already. I also think that, as far as the public is concerned, I never intend to use them solely because I do NOT want to give the incorrect impression that we're putting crap into our syrup by putting our sap into crap. I mean, look how long it took me to type this out, I'm not stupid enough to think that I can reach out to every passerby that sees tubing running into garbage cans that, "Oh no, it's okay, REALLY! It's 'FOOD GRADE,' after all!" Not gonna happen. Like I said, I'm just pointing out certain things that I'm not sure normally get a fair shake in these discussions. Who knows, I may edit or delete all this after I've calmed down and had my supper... hmmm, now did I leave the steak in the plastic wrap? Or the aluminum foil? AAAHHH!!! HOLY COW! ALUMINUM?!?!?! Great, TWO cans of worms opened in the same thread!!!! ;) ...oh when oh when will i learn... :)

Yeast(<----)Pimp, out! :)

[Brokermike]

Can you? Yes! Should you? Nope. End of discussion

[happy thoughts]

@ yeast pimp- well since you said it that way:lol:

I seriously understand what you're saying and admire your passion for and knowledge of, your wine craft. That said, home wine craft yields a product that will not be sold to the public. The maple industry is a multibillion dollar one with many small players, including mom and pop operations and small hobbyists who want to pay for their hobby. That industry bears protecting, imho, and that can best be done by holding ourselves to standards that insure a pure, wholesome product as contaminant free as possible. I come from a background in healthcare, so public health and safety is important to me and always will be.

I was surprised to see the food rating info on the rubbermaid website. That is new within the last year as far as I know. It used to be very difficult to find any sort of rating on most containers other than the recycling numbers which never indicated suitability for food storage. That said, though the particular totes you mention may be rated food safe, my concern still is that others might then generalize that all trash cans are usable. I looked at a few websites selling those specific containers today and found lots of confusion. As I read the company info, only the white, grey and yellow totes are nsf#2 rated, yet red ones were listed for sale on some sites with that very same rating. Some people will also look at that info and figure any white grey or yellow trash can or container is safe. That could lead to trouble. And then there's the public perception thing about using trash cans, which has already been mentioned. Image can be everything, especially in these times.

Anyhow, I'm sorry I got you upset, that certainly wasn't my intention. I hope you got to enjoy a nice steak dinner, had a nice glass of home made wine, and topped it off with some ice cream and maple syrup:). All the best to you:)

[Clarkfield Farms]

:) All good; except the part about you spying on me while I was eating!!! What makes it even more confusing is that Rubbermaid actually makes containers - or at least used to, it's been at least a couple of years since I last checked - specifically for winemaking, marketed as primary fermentation vessels; they are/were 20-gallon, white, HDPE, and shaped like very tall wastepaper baskets... It's been awhile since I last bought any equipment, and I've never bought any of those. But yeah - trash cans: it's a road that's best not taken, less travelled by or not. At least not in the light of day.

There are alternatives abounding out there, and in keeping with good taste (pun, of course, well-intended), those should be chosen. With many localities having an abundance of more readily acceptable new and appropriately used containers at reasonable prices, it would make sense to pursue them instead. 55-gallon (genuine) food-grade plastic barrels at Bronstein Containers on Rockcut Road in Syracuse, NY (sort of local to me): $15 brand new last time I checked. With bungs installed. And no one would drive by and wonder if some nice, thoughtful person put it out there for them to throw garbage in; hmmm, funny how they left that odd little blue tube thingy trailing along behind it! And fastened to a row of maple trees; now who would do that? It's such a strange world today... :)

Ahhh... Breyer's All Natural (but is it? or did they churn it in a plastic trash can?!) Natural Vanilla Ice Cream, with a little bit of Hershey's Natural Unsweetened Cocoa Powder and your own maple syrup, churned together until creamy... wow. Who needs plastic? Or wine?!?! :) Or wine in plastic???? help. I need my aluminum foil headgear. Anybody seen it?

Thank you, sir, and all the best to you, too. And I'm not upset, I just lit my fuse and didn't bother to think too much about where I was aiming the rocket. Sorry about that.

*As for "YeastPimp:" A long time ago, I was sitting with a small group of friends, the conversation got around to homebrewing and I said that I'd encourage anyone with an interest in it to get started doing it. One of the guys said, "Nah, sounds like a huge amount of work, I don't have time for it." I said that yes, but while it IS a lot of work, it's not YOU doing the work; I just take the ingredients, introduce them to the yeast in an environment well-suited to them, let the YEAST do all the work and after they're done I reap all the rewards. After what seemed like a long, awkward silence, another guy spoke up kind of sheepishly and said, "So... that makes you like, what -- the Yeast Pimp?" And it stuck... :)

[happy thoughts]

LOL. the yeast pimp story was hilarious! Thanks for sharing.:) and just to keep the record straight, it's ma'am. Not all that important except that this morning the odometer turned over to one of those nasty O years... the ones that start 0ld Lady:o

How 'bout that spy cam? It comes in handy but I've gotta end with a friendly reminder. Eat your veggies! That said, I may have to indulge in your ice cream recipe for breakfast!

Have a great season:)

[Clarkfield Farms]

>ahem<... well, it seems that the only time I open my mouth (or type?) is to change feet. I apologize for that! Rest easy, though, since that should make it obvious that I DON'T have a spy cam! And a great season to you, too, "ma'am." ;)

[RollinsOrchards]

Since they are making disposable plastic "sap sacks" to catch sap on the tree, why couldn't the same company make larger sap sacks that could be used to line a drum or cage tank, or even reline older galvanized tanks? This would allow people to use the cheaper "structure" of whatever they have for tanks, while providing a safe, sanitary, disposable, affordable alternative.

[NH/Pete]

Since they are making disposable plastic "sap sacks" to catch sap on the tree, why couldn't the same company make larger sap sacks that could be used to line a drum or cage tank, or even reline older galvanized tanks? This would allow people to use the cheaper "structure" of whatever they have for tanks, while providing a safe, sanitary, disposable, affordable alternative.

Drum liners. http://www.discountplasticbags.com/products/38-x-60-x-4-Mil-Clear-55-Gal.-Drum-Liners-%28L3155%29.html

[CBOYER]

Very important for drum liner:

Our drum liners are manufactured from 100% virgin FDA/USDA approved LDPE for both consistency of strength and security of handling consumables. Unlike our other trash bags and can liners, these bags contain no reprocessed raw material content

[Revi]

I guess the answer is to find HDPE food grade containers and use those, but not the LDPE. Is this correct?

[happy thoughts]

I guess the answer is to find HDPE food grade containers and use those, but not the LDPE. Is this correct?

No, apparently LDPE can be safe for food storage also. What's important is that whatever container you use, look for absolute assurance it's food grade for the application you want to use it for. IOW, you need to look beyond a recycling number and whatever the material makeup stamped on the bottom. You could have equivalent containers made from the same material. One might be food safe, the other not. Also, if you plan on using any plastic container under higher temps, you want the material to be rated food safe at the temperatures you will be using them.

[CBOYER]

difference between low density polyethylene and high density polyethylene is not important for food grad, if they are made of virgin material. The difference is in the strenght of the material.

[sugarwoodacres]

How much are you looking to store ? I found a local plastic manufacturer that sells 55 gallon plastic drums for $38 each . They are brand new and didny have any unknown chemicals. Most of us eat some of our own so keeping it safe til boiling is important .