Am I putting spiles in too deeply?

[ahowes]

My decreased sap flow is likely being negatively affected by the weather, but it seems my flow is less than all those in the same climate/area. This is the first year I have used store-bought spiles - before I have used whittled elderberry.

My elderberry spiles had sharper angles in front and flowed very well. I went from 7/16 on those to 5/16 on the plastic ones. I am concerned that I tapped them in too far and may be plugging the capillaries and reducing the flow. Is that possible? How far should I tap them in - just past the first ring or two, or past all the rings on the plastic?

Thanks.

[Russell Lampron]

I don't know what type of plastic spiles you are using but the general rule of thumb for seating one it to tap it in until the tapping noise changes to a tunk noise. Don't drive them to hard. You can split the tree if you drive it like a 16 penny nail.

5/16" spiles won't flow as much sap as a 7/16" either although it isn't much less.

[Cake O' Maple]

I am using plastic spiles with tubing into buckets as well, and my spiles don't have rings except what holds the tubing on. Could you have put that end into the tree? I drill a hole about 2" deep, and put the smooth portion into the tree, tapping gently like Russ said until the "tink" changes to a dull "tunk."

Could you post a picture of your spile? (I'd love to see the elderberry spiles, too!)

[northwoods_forestry]

Gentle is the key, there is no set depth just want to be sure the spile is set and sealed in the tap hole. I go even gentler than most as I want to be able to pull the spiles out easily by hand (no puller!) when I clean up at the end of the season.

[happy thoughts]

It's more likely the weather and/or the smaller diameter of your spiles, that's assuming you're tapping the same trees you did last year and have tapped far enough away from previous tap holes into healthy sapwood.

I found an interesting study from the 60's on the Cornell web site where tap hole depth was examined.

http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/pubs/tapinfluence.htm

Deeper taps of 3.5 inches inches produced more sap than 2 inch deep ones- but like larger spiles, probably create a lot more damage that can affect overall tree health. Bottom line, I doubt you tapped too deeply using the commercial taps you're using. Just be patient, the sap will start flowing :)

[wcproctor]

you could be in to far. What size drill bit are you using. I use a19/64 for the 5/16 taps. I got it at Bascom's yes you pay a little more but this bit will last you. I had it for 4 year and it is still sharp.

[TunbridgeDave]

Drill size is very important as WCPROCTOR is saying. We use the cdl smart spouts (19/64) and pound them in hard, to the point where they almost shatter. If you go out and check your lines regularly like we do, you will find the spouts work their way out from the freezing and thawing cycles, so we carry a hammer with us and pound them in again with no damage to the tree. You can't maintain high vacuume if they aren't in tight. I think the older 7/16 spouts were more likely to split the trees, especially the soft maples (which we don't bother with).

[ahowes]

Thanks, everyone. I was out of state while the recent run was going on and was trying to troubleshoot from 400 miles away from my trees. My wife was running them and the gallons didn't seem like enough, given the weather.

I'm using a hand brace with a 5/16 bit and the spiles are loose enough that I can turn them easily and pull them out. I haven't had any obvious leakage around the spiles, either. I backed out some on the trees that aren't producing just to see if there is an increase. I did put the ribbed part in (so that's not it) and most of the holes were wet when I drilled them. I also made sure that the holes were not near, above, or below old holes.

I have found some trees that were very heavy producers in the last two years that aren't giving any sap up at all. My heaviest producers seem to be the 18"-22" inch trees, while bigger ones hardly produce and smaller ones do OK.

I knew I would give up some production with the smaller holes, but the fellow at the supply store said that it wouldn't be a lot less. I may also just be too impatient. The weather has been very odd of course - and we're near the southern edge of the maple belt anyway - and I'm still a newbie. I'll report back...

(For a pic of the elderberry spile, scroll way down on the family blog and you'll see it.)

Thanks!

[Sugarbush Ridge]

I understand the ribbed part. The Leader "tree saver" spouts have ribs,, 3 on mine. Sounds like you're not getting then in tight enough. Drive then in untill you hear the sound change,,,,, True they will be a little harder to pull, but you are wanting sap,,,, not ease of removing them. A cheap "flat bar" nail puller from a hardware store and grind the notch big enough to fit the spout works for me.

[RollinsOrchards]

How about the depth of the hole? I have been guilty of not drilling a deep enough hole before and that will either keep the spile from seating firmly and leaking around it or snug the opening of the spile against the heartwood of the tree, depending on the type of spile.

[Sugarbush Ridge]

About 2 inches deep,,,,, some books say that to be from the inside of the bark. If it's a real big old tree maybe a little deeper to alow for the thick bark

[maple flats]

You're putting the RIBBED part in? The ribbed (commonly called barbs) are to seal the tubing. The spouts I use and any others I have seen are smooth and tapered. Just tap them in gently until as others have said, the sound changes. I have good vacuum and don't need to hammer them in hard. If one loosens I tap them in a little harder. I have used 2 different things to hammer them with over the years, medium size lineman's pliers (use the flat jaw side) or a leather mallet, a hammer is overkill.

[ahowes]

By ribbed, I meant the three very slight ribs that probably help to prevent sap from oozing out. The tubing end is very obvious - besides, the tubing wouldn't fit on the other end anyway. Much too loose.
I figured out that I was the problem. As someone above said, I wasn't drilling deeply enough. I allowed my 30-year old BS in Biology to mess me up. I recalled from long-ago botany classes that the bulk of the sap flows through the outer portion of the trunk, so once I saw sap as I was drilling, I figured I had drilled enough. Then I read one of Dr. Tim's posts in another thread and realized that I was probably only half of the distance in that I needed to be.
Yes, it is true that most of the sap flows through the outer part of the trunk, but the outer part is more than what I was drilling. Two inches in is still in the outer part of the tree. RollinsOrchards was right.
I went and re-drilled all my holes - making them 2" deep or so - and the sap began flowing as it should have all along. Unfortunately, I lost out on about 35-40% of the sap that I should have gotten because I was trying to cause minimal stress on the trees. Just goes to show: MapleTrader is a far better source for info than some old out-dated biology degree. Thanks for all of the help!

Live and learn, I guess.