bb2 surge pump

[pierre]

whats the stats on this kind of pump how many taps will it handle and what kind of pressure will it do

[Paddymountain]

I think Redmaples has around 250 taps on a BB2,I'm planning on about a 100 taps with one.

[pierre]

i have 400 taps and i was looking at buying this bb2 pump as a back up it runs has a motor dont know what size but it looks like the original motor sits on a tank w/ oil but i was wondering whats it worth what should it pull in vacuum

[Bucket Head]

Is a BB2 rated for half the performance of a BB4, like the SP11 is half of the SP22? If so, a BB4 is rated at 29cfm with a 2.5h.p. motor on it, according to some Surge literature I've read. The BB4 is actually larger than the SP22. So the BB2 may be bigger than the SP11. The SP11 is rated at 10cfm with a .85 h.p. motor. I'm no vacuum expert, but the general reccomendation is one cubic foot per minute per 100 taps, I believe. Hopefully this info will help you make a determination on the pump your looking at.

Steve

[markcasper]

sp11 is 5.5 cfm american. "11" was a new zealond thing and that is right from the dealer. same thing with the 22, in reality it has 11 cfm. My dad says the bb4 was bigger than the sp22 as well, my guess in reality it had 14.5 cfm if you are saying 29, which would again be the new zealand number. The bb2 is similar to the sp11, but don't hve the eaxact specs.
There is alamo 100 in the barn for milking, it really hafve 50 cfm, basically everythinh surge did rated at i/2.

[Bucket Head]

I'm not sure what the New Zealand thing is, but the paperwork I have says the SP11 is 5 CFM free air at 15" of Vacuum. The SP22 is 11 CFM free air at 15" of vacuum. The BB4 is 14.5 CFM free air at 15" of vacuum. I don't have any specs on the BB2. I guess it would be safe to say the BB2 is a little bigger than the SP11, going by what I have here. So to answer the original question, I would say a BB2 in good mechanical order and with a tight tubing system behind it could easily do 500 taps. I know of a SP22 near me that runs over 1100 taps without any problem at all.

Maybe some folks with either the BB2 or a SP11 will chime in here and share how many taps their running on their pump.

Steve

[waysidemaple]

I have a bb2 and am running it on 400 taps with a sap ladder for 100 of them. so far its doing 18 inches no problem. Hope that helps.

Scott

[red maples]

yeah I have a bb2 on about 270 taps had 2 sap ladders one a double pipe on the whole system (which this year I am only using for emergency if the swamp floods) and a 6 star for about 35 taps ...all total on approx 1500 ft main line, aand pulling about 24" end to end without ladders and with ladders 23" at the releaser and 21.5" at the end with air leak. Thing runs like a bull!!! and I run it full out with a 1 hp motor and I can still hold my hand on top for 30 secs to a minute depending on outside temps.

One important thing with these is change the oil every week or depending how long it runs if it runs for 36-48 hours straight which I have done no problem I change it earlier!!! And I use air compresser oil. although mine a few oil leaks I need to redo the gaskets in the off season I think.

[Bolen Creek]

How many horse power gas motor is usually used on bb2 or sp11? Also what size pulley is used? Looking at pulling around 20"?

[lpakiz]

I have a 3 HP Tecumseh on an SP 11. While the SP 11 can run up to 500 RPM, I idle the engine down to achieve 20 or so inches HG. Some days the SP 11 is turning(guessing) around 200 RPM.

[Bucket Head]

I would guess that a 3 1/2h.p. engine would be fine. The SP22 that I spoke of earlier has a 5hp Honda on it and its not run at full throttle. The SP11 is a little under half the size/rating of the 22. I know that 22 gets more than 20" of vacuum on it.

You have to do some math and you need to know some numbers before you can figure pulley sizes. The SP11 has a twelve inch pulley on it. Surge says "approx. rpm 440 or 475 with either a .55hp elec. motor or .85 elec. motor. 3 1/4" pulley on the .55 motor, 3 1/2" pulley on the .85 motor. What rpm's are these motors? It does'nt say and I could'nt tell you. Maybe 1750? Someone with more elec. motor experience could give a better guess.

This is the formula for figuring pulley size for an engine. However, you need to know what rpm your going to run the engine at first. Most small engines have a governed speed of about 3600 rpm. (You won't need to run it that high for one, and you won't want to keep putting the fuel in it if your were running it at full throttle. The SP22 I mentioned runs around 2800rpm if I'm remembering correctly. It is equiped with a tachometer for setting the throttle. The pump has a 14" pulley and the engine has 2 1/4" pulley.) Take the pump speed and divide it by the engine speed (whatever you choose). That gives you the reduction. Then multiply that reduction number by the pump pulley diameter. That figure equals the engine pulley diameter.

440(rpm) divided by 2800(engine rpm) = 0.1571428 x 12(SP11 pulley dia.) = 1.8857136 So the engine pulley needs to be 1.88 inches in diameter, which is pretty close to 1 3/4 inches. You'll probably only find that or a 2" pulley. Now remember this math was for the SP11, not the actual BB2 numbers, which I don't have in front of me. Whats your pump pulley diameter? Maybe the 475 pump rpm would work, I don't know? Maybe 3000rpm engine speed would do better? Or maybe 2600 engine rpm would get you the 20" of vacuum your looking for? See what I'm getting at here? You have to have some numbers (and an educated guess or two) to start with before busting out the calculator.

I hope this helps everyone out there who is trying to hook up a Surge piston pump. And just so everyone knows, the SP22 and BB4 have either 390 or 420 as the pump rpm's. DON'T turn these pumps faster than the rated rpm's or you won't have a working pump for very long! Good luck everyone.

Steve

[Bucket Head]

Larry,

What size pully do you have on your engine?

I mentioned the 3 1/2hp engine because I know that is a common horse power rating, at least with Briggs & Stratton. I did'nt know Tecumseh made a three, and I'm not certain what Honda offers below their 5hp engine.

A 5hp motor would work too. It would'nt have to run as fast as the smaller engines, which would save a little fuel. But whatever engine is used, you don't want to under-rev the engine and lug it. It won't run well and it won't run long before fouling the plug. And a stalled motor won't draw any sap!

Steve

[lpakiz]

The advantage with a gas engine is the ability to vary the speed of the vacuum pump. I have not experienced the fouling effect ever and I run that engine just a bit over idle. And I mean slow! I changed one spark plug in 2 years. I use the engine RPM to "regulate" the HGs of vacuum. If I come into the sap house and I have 24" (has happened) I idle down even further. I really try to stay on top of the leaks, tho.
I'll measure the engine pully diameter later. Right now, I'm guessing at 3 to 3 1/2 inch.
The engine has plenty of power at idle to run the SP-11. I do have to remove the belt to start a cold engine and warm up the engine. When warm, shut off, reinstall the belt and give it a brisk pull.
I never run it so fast that spit sizzles on the pump head.
We have run 20+ hours on 2 1/2 gallons of gas.

[Bolen Creek]

One of our woods was recently logged so it now has about 2200' of 1" and 3/4" main line with good slope and about 450 taps. 5-7 taps per lateral line all coming into multi-fittings. Does the sp11 or bb2 (have both) produce enough cfm to handle this setup. system was new last year adding vac this year

[Bucket Head]

Larry,

I'm confused, you have the 3hp engine on which model pump, an SP11 or 22? You mentioned the 11 in the first post but said the engine runs the 22 without a problem in the second. The SP22 with the Honda 5hp I spoke of would tend to 'load up' at the lower engine speeds. Throttling it up a little for a 'cleaner burn' helped it quite a bit. Inorder for a 3hp to run a 22 at idle, I'm thinking theres a significant difference in loads between the two engines, going on how the Honda behaved under load.

I've heard of the "sizzle test" before. But it's possible to turn any of these pumps faster than what their designed to and still not 'sizzle' anything. An invaluable tool (and not just for maple purposes) is a hand held tachometer. You manually hold it against the end of a rotating shaft and it reads the rpm's. I know Grainger used to sell them, and probably still do. That takes out all the math, and guesstimates on this speed-sensitive equipment.

Steve

[Bucket Head]

Bolen Creek,

I've been told that one cfm per 100 taps is the reccomended cfm rating. An SP11 has a rating of, "5 CFM free air at 15" of vacuum". So going by that I would say an 11 would do your taps allright. I have no info on a BB2, but I think its a little bigger pump than the 11. I think either one, as long as their in good shape, would run your system. Maybe someone else on here has some info on the BB2?

Steve

[Bolen Creek]

my concern was pulling vac through that long of mainline and getting vac to taphole

[lpakiz]

Steve,
Yes, I mis-spoke when I mentioned SP-22. I meant SP-11. (I went back and edited my mistake in post # 13) Also, I think the Tecumseh is a 3 1/2 HP, because the Model Number starts with H35.
I used a digital tach on my SP-11 this afternoon. Lost track of the paper I recorded things on, but here goes:

1800 PM on motor ran pump at 350 PM
2100 RPM on motor ran pump at 400 RPM
Pulley on SP-11 is 12 inches, but I use an "A" belt which sinks down in the groove about 3/16 inch, so effective pump pulley diameter is about 11 5/8.
Pulley on motor is exactly 3 3/8 and belt rides even with OD of pulley

[Bucket Head]

Larry,

Those are good numbers! Thats right where the pump should be running, a little less even, which is better for longevity. These old piston pumps will run forever with good oil and the proper rpm's. Everybody with an SP11 should write these pulley diameters down.

Steve

[pierre]

my bb2 has an old motor on it w/no info on it it runs and its only pulling 11" is it because of the motor or is it the pump that needs to be rebuilt? it has a 12"pully on the pump ill start w/new motor what size do i need ?that way i can see if the press. go's up if not were do you get rebuilt kits for it ?thanks for the help!!!

[lpakiz]

Don't get a new motor yet!! Make sure the belt isn't slipping. I have seen the resevoir tank rust thru on the bottom and leak. Try to measure vacuum right out of the pump--right at the inlet. Is the rotation correct? There is a tiny arrow on top of the piston "deck" right behind the flywheel that shows rotation...

[pierre]

well guys i took the tank out of the equation and it went right to 28" i think the tank has a hole in it like was talked about now the motor is ancient ill use it for awhile but now witch one is better my 3040 gast or this bb2 for my situation i have 600'of 1"from pump to releaser and 4runs 325'each of -3/4" of main line any thoughts

[Bolen Creek]

What is the knob with the spring under it on top of the bb2 for

[pierre]

good question dont know

[Dill]

Is the BB2 the odd ball that Surge made that could backwards? I remember reading one could be used as an air compressor as well.

[Dennis H.]

The knob is so you can trun it into an air compressor.
You push down on it and give it a 1/2-1/4 turn once it engages. It is turned one way or the other not sure.
You do this while it is not running though.

It will make vac when it is in the air compressor mode but very very low. I found this out myself. Pulled my hair out and thought it was bad. Till I took the top cover off and saw how it works. Then asking around and was told that you can use it for and air compressor.
Makes sense now.