need XLE-4040 HELP

[Maplewalnut]

So I got the new membranes and I am having a hard time figuring out a plug for the bottom of it. I took the grey ones out of my olf NF-270s and the plug is conical on the end, inserts into the center of the membrane. Problen is the new XLE has a star pattern to the post that the plug fits into. Anyone run into this problem? Joe at Atalantic is telling me use a pvc end cap but I can't find anything to fit.

[wiam]

Let me start by saying you may not want to try this but you can still get a cap to fit over outside if it does not work for you. Mine were hex shape inside but it should work anyway. I took a brand new-(never drilled a hole before so I knew it had no burrs)-1/2 inch high speed bit and carefully drilled the end I needed to put the plug in. I was nervous doing this to $450 but it worked with no problem.

disclaimer: This worked for me, don't call me!


I have been told that Leader can make just about any plug or cap that might be needed.

[danno]

Hum? Joe should be able to get you any adapter you need as well. I bought XLE 4040's from him, and also bought new adapters from him for the XLE's as my old osmoinic adapters were not going to fit the XLE's. They fit perfect.

[Maplewalnut]

Thanks guys, Joe is sending caps not a plug. I thought about drilling them out and still may if I am going to use a cap anyway. Not sure why Joe does not have a plug for these kind of membranes. sort of a pain in the but that these things arent plug and play. I dont see the reason for the hex shape.....

[wiam]

I dont see the reason for the hex shape.....

Me neither.

[Amber Gold]

maplewalnut, just got my xle's in yesterday and discovered the same thing. My adapter/stinger doesn't fit either. Glad I checked, because I thought I was all set. I haven't opened the membrane housing yet, but isn't there an adapter for the top as well? Does he send both?

First time I've dealt with new membranes, but can I take them out of the bag? I'm guessing the yellow wrapping's removed as well??

I agree...why can't they make them all the same.

[Maplewalnut]

No dont remove the yellow thats the membrane. Not fiberglass but Joe told me its rated to like 600 psi??? We'll see. I am waiting for a cap that Joe sent otherwise I have to rty and find one today. I am swimming in sap and still haven't figured out how these membranes will fit. I never had a top adaptor for my old ones so I am assuming I won't need one for these. I'll have more answers this afternoon when I actually take them out of the bag and slip them in the RO vessels. Not very user friendly

[Amber Gold]

If I remember correctly, the top cap to the membrane housing which you bolt on has a pvc elbow adapter which goes through it. The elbow has a barbed end which your tubing connects to, but doesn't the other end fit into the top hole in the membrane?

What about using the membranes from last season to get you started? Get through the sap and generate permeate for the new ones.

[Maplewalnut]

What about using the membranes from last season to get you started? Get through the sap and generate permeate for the new ones.

Yea, last resort since they have been sitting in my garage dry for 3 months...

[Amber Gold]

Keep us posted. Fortunately for me, you're going to get all this stuff worked out I hope) before I need to start tapping..

What's the XLE wrap material made of and why's it different?

[wiam]

The yellow wrap is kind of like tape. I though it should come off mine when I got them last year. It is not! They will run with less of it with no problems.:rolleyes: My setup needs to plug center hole on membrane at top and has an adapter/connector on bottom on lower end to housing.

[Maplewalnut]

Just got back from hardware store for my lunch break. PVC, cPVC, conduit, copper nothing fits it for a cap. Unbelieveable. I can't believe no one else had this issue other than Wiam. I'll post later tonight after the swearing ends

[Amber Gold]

Willliam, now that's funny! I'll make sure to leave the wrap on.

[Maplewalnut]

Ok, here is what I did. Still have not received caps from Joe at Atlantic so I decided to drill out the hex with an 1/2" high speed bit. I then inserted my old grey plugs from my nf-270s. Had some trouble with my cups so had to place emergency call to 802maple. Thanks Jerry. Got the cups on and put new membranes in cannisters. Bolted everything down.

Josh dont worry about the top hex stinger it fits inside the top manifold.

Got good flow, looks like about the same as 270s but time will tell. Also dont like the paper weave instead of fiberglass. Again time will tell if it starts to unravel.

checked permeate three times..begnning, middle and end of run, no sugar by refractometer. I do the 20 part boil down next time.

[wiam]

Just got back from hardware store for my lunch break. PVC, cPVC, conduit, copper nothing fits it for a cap. Unbelieveable. I can't believe no one else had this issue other than Wiam. I'll post later tonight after the swearing ends

Some times it irritates me that something that cost $450 comes with very little instructions.:mad:

[Maplewalnut]

Some times it irritates me that something that cost $450 comes with very little instructions.:mad:

I will drink to that!

[Amber Gold]

How deep did you drill it?

I haven't taken mine out of the bag yet, but I see there's already a black gasket on it, isn't it a new U-cup?

I forget, how do you know which is the top of the membrane and the bottom? Isn't one of the nipples longer than the other?

[wiam]

How deep did you drill it?

I haven't taken mine out of the bag yet, but I see there's already a black gasket on it, isn't it a new U-cup?

I forget, how do you know which is the top of the membrane and the bottom? Isn't one of the nipples longer than the other?

I drilled mine as deep as my plug was. There are new gaskets on the outside of the membrane. I would have to look at mine to know if there was an upside down.

[wiam]

Just looked at mine. The nipples are the same. The plug goes in the end with the gasket. Hope that helps.

[802maple]

How deep did you drill it?

I haven't taken mine out of the bag yet, but I see there's already a black gasket on it, isn't it a new U-cup?

I forget, how do you know which is the top of the membrane and the bottom? Isn't one of the nipples longer than the other?

Josh on your machine the black gasket has to have the narrow side toward the end, on some machines such as a CDL it has to be reversed with the wide end toward the end.

[Maplewalnut]

Josh on your machine the black gasket has to have the narrow side toward the end, on some machines such as a CDL it has to be reversed with the wide end toward the end.

Crap, forgot to note that in my post.

Josh- if you look at the gasket. one side of it is almost flush with the groove it is in and one side of the gasket is raised out of the groove quite a bit. As per 802's instruction the flush side should be down towards the bottom of the membrane. In my case I had to take the gasket out and flip it around, I would imagine you'll have to do the same. Slide the U-cup on and it really tightens up as it passes over the raised part of the gasket.

I'll PM you my home number, in case you have any problems. Jerry walked me through it, I can at least return the favor!

[Amber Gold]

Thanks for the information. I'd forgotten about the gasket being in a certain direction.

The membranes are currently dry, should I pre-soak them before installing them?

Plan is to tap the weekend of the 18th and install the membranes then.

[Russell Lampron]

You guys with Lapierre 4" membranes look at your original membranes and you will see that the end that faces the recirc pump is shorter than the other end. You have to cut about a 1/2" off of the lower nipple so that the plug doesn't rub on the shaft of the recirc pump! I tried using the cap that Joe sent me with the NF270 that I bought from him. It fell off inside the tower and I filled my permeate tank with concentrate/sap. Carefully drill out the hex with a 1/2" drill bit and use your original plug.

[Maplewalnut]

ahhh...the plot thickens. Thanks Russ, you are the third person now that has told me the 'caps' Joe sends will not work. Seems like the only option is to drill it out which is what I did. Can't take credit for it because it was my only option since I still haven't received the caps Joe was sending 'right away'.

My take on the whole thing is two fold...1.)thank goodness for Maple trader and 802maple 2.) Joe's prices are good and he may have 30 years RO experience as he proclaimed to me but it isn't in a maple application. And even though he asks how many taps you have and what your machine mfr is, he probably sends everyone the same 'kit'

[Russell Lampron]

ahhh...the plot thickens. Thanks Russ, you are the third person now that has told me the 'caps' Joe sends will not work. Seems like the only option is to drill it out which is what I did. Can't take credit for it because it was my only option since I still haven't received the caps Joe was sending 'right away'.

My take on the whole thing is two fold...1.)thank goodness for Maple trader and 802maple 2.) Joe's prices are good and he may have 30 years RO experience as he proclaimed to me but it isn't in a maple application. And even though he asks how many taps you have and what your machine mfr is, he probably sends everyone the same 'kit'

Joe sells a generic so to speak membrane that is designed to work in water system RO's. You do have to make a few adjustments to the design to make them work but you are saving a ton of money by buying through him and not Lapierre. Joe can't sell you the exact replacement that Lapierre will because of licensing agreements and such. I for one will do the Mickey Mousing and save the hard earned.

Did you cut a 1/2" off of the lower nipple of your membranes when you drilled them? If not they will rub on the recirc pump shaft.

[802maple]

They will even if they use the lapierre caps Russ? I haven't dealt with the 4 inch xle's, but shouldn't it be the right spacing with the original cap?



Joe sells a generic so to speak membrane that is designed to work in water system RO's. You do have to make a few adjustments to the design to make them work but you are saving a ton of money by buying through him and not Lapierre. Joe can't sell you the exact replacement that Lapierre will because of licensing agreements and such. I for one will do the Mickey Mousing and save the hard earned.

Did you cut a 1/2" off of the lower nipple of your membranes when you drilled them? If not they will rub on the recirc pump shaft.

[Russell Lampron]

They will even if they use the lapierre caps Russ? I haven't dealt with the 4 inch xle's, but shouldn't it be the right spacing with the original cap?

Jerry the original NF90 membrane that came with my Lapierre RO had a nipple that was a 1/2" shorter at the bottom end. Joshes NF90's were the same. I put a membrane with both nipples the same length into my RO with the plug from my original membrane in it. I used it that way and when I removed it at the end of the season I found that the plug had rubbed on the pump shaft. There were pieces of the plug on the membrane surface and melted onto the end of the pump shaft. It didn't cause any damage to the pump but I only used it for a short time.

[802maple]

Just asking for future reference, but were you using the lapierre cup on the bottom or another style cup?

[Russell Lampron]

Just asking for future reference, but were you using the lapierre cup on the bottom or another style cup?

I'm using the Lapierre cup that came with my RO.

[802maple]

Thanks Russ for the info

[Amber Gold]

I've put ~4500 gal of sap through the new XLE's and they're slowing down. I was getting 300 gph before they slowed down to 270gph for the rest of the night, but the past two runs, I've been getting 270 gph dropping to 240 gph. The after the other run, I did a double wash cycle and no difference. I took 5 qts of perm., reduced it to 0.5-1 cup of water, tested for sugar, and got ~2%. Is this enough to be concerned about?

When I installed the membranes, I flipped the brine seal around, cut the lower nipple to 5/8" so it matched my old 90's, drilled out the core w/ a 1/2" bit, installed the stingers and u-cup, put the membranes in the towers and bolted the covers on. The 1/2" hole wasn't quite big enough for the stinger, so I had to oversize it a bit to get it in there. In the process of finding the right size hole, I did put a small rip in one of the o-rings, but there's a second for backup so I wasn't concerned...am I wrong in this assumption? I don't think there were any other issues during installation.

Is it normal for membranes to pass some sugar and do they normally slowdown as they're broken in? Will it stabilize?

Thanks

[Brent]

My XLE-4040s do not pass anything. Zero. I think you have some leakage because 2% is way too much.

I've tested the perm with a sap hydrometer, a digital refractometer and a good quality TDS meter, so I think I've got good readings, but I did not boil down to test. I'm running at 300 PSI. I'm getting 7.5 to 8% on a single pass, 2 x 4" membranes. Starts out at about 180 GPH and drops off to about 150 before I rinse or wash.

[wiam]

Last year was my first with XLE-4040s. I ran about 450psi. I took a 20 quart stock pot full of permeate and boiled it down on a turkey cooker so it would just fit in a test cup. Hydrometer still sat on the bottom. My membranes will drop off a little when first starting but level off. I do not remember flow rates. I would run a rinse after about 4 hrs and washed at the end every day. Mine come back to near beginning of season after a wash. Are you washing at pH of 11? I have found you need to add more ro soap after a little while to keep pH level up.

[Amber Gold]

I recirc. at 250psi until I'm ready to start boiling, at which point I bring it to 300-350psi and choke it down a bit more on it's way to the feed tank.

I run a rinse after about 4 hrs, rinse the sugar out first, then rinse to drain for another 15 min., then go back to concentrating.

Every night I run the RO, it gets a wash cycle afterwards. After rinsing the membranes of sugar, I let it rinse to drain for 30 min., then switch to a wash cycle. For the first 30 min. of the wash cycle, I monitor the pH and adjust to maintain a pH of 11. The following morning, I run the remainder of the perm. through to do a final rinse.

I figured this out...160 oz of perm, reduced to say 16oz of water equals a 90% reduction in volume, of the reduced volume, 2% of it is sugar....This means my perm. should test out at ~0.2% sugar...will need to verify the next time I concentrate.

[Amber Gold]

Does anyone have the spec's for the o-rings on the stingers? I"m guessing they're a standard part I could order from Grainger or something?? If so, I can get them here for tomorrow.

[danno]

Josh - how many 4040's are you running? Last year was the first year for mine - I ran 2. The did slow down to 180-200 gph at 375 psi after the first week or two. This year I'm running the same two as last year and 2 more new ones and getting 270-300 gph at 375 psi.

3 out of my 4 membranes fit in my vessels fine, but I did have to modify the last membrane/stinger so it would fit. Weird.

I'm getting zero sugar passage on the refractometer but have not done a permeate boil test. Will do that on my next boil.

[Amber Gold]

Running two XLE4040's...brandy new this season.

[danno]

With 2 membranes at those pressures, sounds like your output is fine. It may even drop a bit lower.

[Amber Gold]

Well, I swapped out all the o-rings on the stingers yesterday, concentrated yesterday's run, and still getting sugar in the perm. Raw perm. tested at 0.1% and concentrated. perm. tested positive for sugar at ~4%...think my end volume was lower than before, so I got a higher reading. The stingers slid into the bottom nipple nice and tight and w/ new o-rings, I can't see anything leaking by now. When I installed the membranes, I flipped the brine seal around so the smaller end was down, put the u-cup on, the stinger, and dropped them in the towers...is this correct? What could be causing me to pass sugar? Bad membranes? If this keeps up, I'll put the old NF-90's in...pretty sure those didn't pass sugar last year.

Thanks

[Daren]

I just received a new 4040 from Atlantic and noticed there is a black o-ring on one end of the membrane and none on the other. Should there be one on both ends? It looks like there is a channel for it but not in there. It is still in the sealed plastic bag so I am sure it was not there from the start. Also it says to discard the first hour permeate. Is this first hours worth of water bad?

[maplwrks]

I may have paid $300 more for my membranes, but, I don't have $400 worth of headaches either!!

[danno]

Daren - the one O ring (u cup) is correct. It faces the incoming sap end of the vessel. Josh, wait to hear from others, but I'm pretty sure you have your u cup installed upside down. The edge that flanges out faces the incomeing sap.

[danno]

Daren, I would give them a quick sap rinse through the RO and toss the concentrate, but would not toss an hours worth of concentrate. If you read the DOW manual for these membranes, it says use preservative every time the membrane is not going to be used daily and toss the first hour of concenrtrate every time you use the membranes. Well, that isn't gonna happen in the maple industry.

[Daren]

Thanks folks. I called Joe and he also set me straight on the"brine seal". Hoping the existing membrane is functional for this weekend as a first run test. I just want to boil some concentrate! As for 300 bucks worth of headaches? No where close...labor of love! And 300 more green stays in my coffer! Sweat equity makes it even more rewarding.

[Maplewalnut]

Daren- What were Joe's words of wisdom on the brine seal? Can you elaborate?

Mike

[Maplewalnut]

I may have paid $300 more for my membranes, but, I don't have $400 worth of headaches either!!

Agree completely. Sometimes you get what you pay for. I made the same mistake. in hindsight, if you are looking for technical service specific to the maple industry I would recommend buying from a maple distributer

[802maple]

Daren - the one O ring (u cup) is correct. It faces the incoming sap end of the vessel. Josh, wait to hear from others, but I'm pretty sure you have your u cup installed upside down. The edge that flanges out faces the incomeing sap.

Not on a Lapierre

[Amber Gold]

You can lose $300 worth of syrup pretty quick...

[Daren]

Hey Maplewalnut....Joe just educated me that all RO membranes have just one gasket and told me what a "brine seal" was for (keeping the two sides from intermixing and forcing the raw feed thru the membrane If I understood him correctly). He explained that it is not even an O-ring as it is flaired some and wider than traditional O-rings. I looked in the bottom of the box it came in and also found a cap for the nipple.....never asked him about that one, but figure it needs to go on the top to keep raw sap from entering the middle lumen of the membrane. Looks like several cold days ahead again this week before it returns to better run weather later in the week, so if the old membrane in the machine does not function well enough today, I will have a few days to get the new one installed. I do have to say that I am still a little fuzzy on how the new one will go in because of the two ports on the low side of the housing. I think one is for some internal recirculation and the other for higher pressure, but I cant understand how fluids go where they should as both enter only about a foot apart on the side of the houseing. I would assume that on my machine, the u-cup should go towards the bottom.

As for the thought that it would have been easier to buy the membrane from a sugar manufacturer, my question is why do they insist on such a high margin on these membranes? If they were even remotely close , I would go with them in an instant. I would even consider if they were within $100 or so. But on the xle, the local maple place sells it for $600! For small backyard folks like me, paying double for things would take this hobby out of reach....not that it is not already. I have to pinch every penny and if that means I have to learn a few mechanical skills in the process, I am all the better for it. I do and will continue to support the maple manufacturers where they are the only show in town, but if I can get the same product for half the price.....pretty much a no brainer for me.

[maplwrks]

I understand your point completely, and agree that you shouldn't have to spend twice as much for the same product. Where I disagree with you is that paying half price for something that doesn't fit your machine isn't worth the headaches when the sap is running. Once I read your signature I realized why you said that the membrane was twice as much. $$Leader$$

[wiam]

Has anyone used the white plastic end cap with no o-ring from Atlantic? Does it seal?

[Russell Lampron]

Has anyone used the white plastic end cap with no o-ring from Atlantic? Does it seal?

I used it once and it fell off. I drilled out the hex and used the plug that came with my original membrane from Lapierre.

[maplwrks]

I'm glad I spent the extra $$$ and bought mine from Lapierre---I didn't have any of these headaches, everything fit perfect.

[Maplewalnut]

Has anyone used the white plastic end cap with no o-ring from Atlantic? Does it seal?

Wiam- don't waste your time they do not seal and fall off

Mike

[jpasulka]

Joe's wisdom on the brine seal: It is a "u-cup" and must be on the inlet end of the membrane. When the sap enters under pressure, the brine seal (u-cup) opens like an unbrella to hug the inside of the vessel, so that no sap can bypass the membrane by flowing along the outside, between the membrane and vessel wall.

The fresh sap is forced to enter the membrane and then be separated into H2O and concentrate.
May you harvest be bountiful, fellows!
Joe