tube flu pan idea

[kinalfarm]

i am thinking of welding tubes under my back pan running parralell with the pan that would come down out of the pan then run up the length of it and go back up in. would this work? i have some stainless tubing 1.5" and if i add 4-3' pieces it should increase my sq/ft by 2.5. how much would that increase my evap. rate? in is a 2x6 and im getting about 20 gph with a preheater and forced draft that is fully bricked any input would be great.

[spencer11]

if it will only get you another 2.5 sq. ft. it would only be about another 2.5 gph so i dont think its worth it unless you could put alot of them in. the syrup might burn in the tubes to but i doubt it. i think it would work i just would add more tubes to make it worth while. just my opinion.

spencer

[kinalfarm]

spencer11, i was thinking about adding 6 or 7 tubes after i saw the math. i was also hoping that the sap would circulate hydronically and would not burn inside. if i added 7 that would be 8.25 sq/ft i think that would be great. nits like adding a 2x4 pan to my rig.

[mellondome]

Check out http://www.wfmasonwelding.com/evaporators.html. A design like Bill's drop tube would be a better way to go.

You could take the same tubes you have, and instead of running them full of sap down into the fire ( where you can't drain them), run them up in to the pan and let the fire run through them.

[mellondome]

Instead of dropping your sap in to pipe below your pan, why not put the tube up in to your pan and let the fire flow through them? Similar to a Bill Mason evaporator

[RileySugarbush]

Instead of dropping your sap in to pipe below your pan, why not put the tube up in to your pan and let the fire flow through them? Similar to a Bill Mason evaporator

You would have to be careful to force the flue gasses up through the tubes.

[RileySugarbush]

And adding drop tubes straight down is probably easier and works great.

[spencer11]

I would go with the drop tube like rileysugarbush said or look up mason tube evaporator and you should be able to find some Pics of what mellonhead is describing.

Spencer

[kinalfarm]

Thanks for the input. I have been told that the drop tubes splash up? And I can't really put pipes through the pan as I am not rebuilding my arch to change where the flu gases exit from. I guess I might end up doing drop tubes if Boone has ever heard of my idea. More input would also be very appreciated, how many drop tubes should I put in, and what diam.?

[spencer11]

the number of tubes you put in depends on the size of the pan you would put them in. i am planning for mine to put the tube 1" apart and 6" long. using drop tubes i have heard that it tripples the pans boil rate cause its copper pipe not stainless.

spencer

[warners point]

Here is the link that shows how I made my copper drop tube pan last year. I got the idea from Rileysugarbush and then took it to the next level making a 2x4 sap pan with drop tubes. Its really quite easy, just takes some time and patience. I didn't have any problem with the tubes causing extreme splashing during the boil. The great thing was that I got 40 gph on my 2x6 with natural draft. Can't wait to put a blower on it someday.

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?11661-2x4-Drop-Tube-Flue-Pan&highlight=drop+tube

[kinalfarm]

i wanted to stay away from copper because my pans are stainless and im exirienced at tig welding. im not very good at soldering things like this. only sweating copper pipe. is it difficult.

[spencer11]

i was thinking about using 1" pipe. how far apart are the pipes from eatchother? i was thinking about an inch and then figured i would have 144 tubes on a 2x3 pan! it seemed affordable until i priced out end caps for 1" at $2.78 each it would be like $400 just in end caps! so i would go with 3/4" pipe if i were you cause its quite a bit cheaper and you might be able to get more on the pan. and that means more surface area. just a thought.

spencer

[kinalfarm]

Got all
My pipes ready to go on the pan. I'm going to try my original plan it should increase my evaporation rate by about 10 gph. I will post picks when I get them attached to my pan and will also post test boil results

[spencer11]

let us all know how it works and pics will be great. how ae you attaching the pipe?

spencer

[500592]

I would be very worried about syrup burning inside the pipes my neighbor had a pipe coming out the side of his to drain from and it did not mix and burnt solid probably a gallons worth of syrup.

[kinalfarm]

I'm going to tig the pipes onto the pan. I will tack all the pipes on then stitch weld them doing about an inch at a time. I never have a problem with syrup burning in my draw off tube. I will be welding them on Tomorrow so I will post pics. I did a practice one today and it was super easy. Looks like a pro did it, and I'm not a pro tig welder by any means. I probably won't get to do a test boil till next weekend because I have the weld the filter hooks and draw off port in my filter tank that I'm also building.

[MartinP]

I did a thru tube pan. 2" Copper that the fire and hot gas pass thru. Alot less oldering. Only issue is you need front pan set higher that top of tubes in back pan. http://s958.photobucket.com/albums/ae65/MapleFarmer/Maple/?action=view&current=2ndBoil6.jpg

[markcasper]

Just saw this post and what a coincidence. Some people built a wood fired system like this for me and it was much bigger, a 4x12 with 8ft tubed pan containing 28- 2" SS pipes, 14 on the bottom and 14 staggered on the top. The flat pan sat up 5" higher than the bottom of the tubed pan with chimney in middle. It was a disaster and I lost several hundred gallons of production that spring. It did not work! The massive wood fire wood not fit through the 28 2" pipes. It was a horrid spring for me and I would not wish it on anybody!!!! The bad part is the builder would not stand behind their product, so I had to sue them. I came out ok with that only to have "notice of Chapter 7 bankruptcy" papers show up in my mailbox the next month. :( Products are still being made and sold to this day.

[500592]

Ya your draw off won't burn cause it is not in the fire these are you are better off using ss pipe to make drop tubes like rileysugarbush did except he did it with copper

[wiam]

Just saw this post and what a coincidence. Some people built a wood fired system like this for me and it was much bigger, a 4x12 with 8ft tubed pan containing 28- 2" SS pipes, 14 on the bottom and 14 staggered on the top. The flat pan sat up 5" higher than the bottom of the tubed pan with chimney in middle. It was a disaster and I lost several hundred gallons of production that spring. It did not work! The massive wood fire wood not fit through the 28 2" pipes. It was a horrid spring for me and I would not wish it on anybody!!!! The bad part is the builder would not stand behind their product, so I had to sue them. I came out ok with that only to have "notice of Chapter 7 bankruptcy" papers show up in my mailbox the next month. :( Products are still being made and sold to this day.

I think there were not enough tubes for a 4' wide rig. My W.F.Mason of similar design has 16 2" tubes and it is only 2' wide. Tubes run down under the rails just like a drop flue. I run a big blower on mine and it will boil better than most 2x6's than I have heard about.

[kinalfarm]

I finished welding and leak checked I here some mixed reviews on how people think it will work but I guess we will see sooner than later I am predicting 25-28 gph. Before it was only 15-18gph willam I would like to here more about how you did yours. I am going to try and post pics up but if you want to see them now I can email them or text them if you want me to text them text me first at 814-392-3262 thanks for the input once again.

[kinalfarm]

here is my finished product. i hope it works like i hope it will. It is a 24''x 40" drop tube pan about 17 sq/ft what do you think?
5212 5213 5214

[BoarsNest]

I'm no expert but it seems like you won't get the evaporation rate that you are hoping to achieve. The tubes with surface area is filled with sap so the evaporation that you get is the area of the tube diameter. I am building a drop tube like Williams which gets the surface area into the sap which should provide the evaporation.

[wiam]

kinal, I would think you are going to want those tubes just barely not touching your bricks to keep the heat up on your tubes. Let us know how it works.

[Starting Small]

So on drop tubes is the idea to get the tibes filles with sap or to have the hot air flowing through them? I am not clear how these drop tubes work.

[TimJ]

"So on drop tubes is the idea to get the tibes filles with sap or to have the hot air flowing through them? I am not clear how these drop tubes work. "

There are two methods of using "Tubes" in the back pans that are being discussed.

1. The kind that WF Mason uses are aligned horizontally and are "negative space" I suppose you could call it. The tubes drop below the bottom of the front/syrup pan and the fire/hot air goes through them into the flue/up the chimney.

2. Think "cow udders" - tubes are put in place to extend down from a flat pan into the hot air stream/fire. Sap flows into them. They are oriented vertically.

I will try to edit this later and post pics/links to show both kinds.

The horizontal ones are most similar to other types of flue pans where hot air flows along channels. The cow udder ones are a neat idea to add surface area to an previously made flat pan.


EDIT:
The one shown below is yet another version with the tubes filled with sap - It has added surface area by putting in bends to allow a horizontal portion of tubing sort of like a standard drop flue pan.

[kinalfarm]

boarsnest, last time i checked evaporation was a vapor which exits out of liquid in the easiest manor it will come out the ends of the tubes. this is the material i had
, and got for free so this is what i did. All i have into it is welding gas and time, 0 material cost. I had no trouble rumbling my back pan before I added the tubes , it boiled non stop because of my fully bricked arch and my blower. and my tubes will be about 2 inches away from my bricks on my ramp. I didn't due a mason type pan because i allready have a nice arch that im not changing to run 2 floats. i will agree that the mason type pan would boil faster but it is to much time and money to change my arch and buy long enough material to do this. for anyone who care i will post a pic of my new filter tank too. lets see how many people tell me its junk and that it wont work eh? And i was allways getting at least 15 gph with flat pans and onyly 12 sq/ft. that was the min. my front pan foamed every 20 min because it was boioing so hard.
5230

[BoarsNest]

Kinalfarm,
sorry if my post was taken wrong. I'm not saying it won't work, just didn't think it would work as well as the other design. I am sure you will make great syrup. Nothing like making your own stuff and improvements as you go.

[TimJ]

kinalfarm,

I, for one, am envious.

I have been hoping to make a drop flue addition to our pan, but hasn't happened yet

[vordus]

Any idea when you will test over a fire? I am curious to see if there is a vapor lock of some sort. If not I have a bunch of ss grab bars that i could add to my pan. Cool idea!!!

[RileySugarbush]

It should boil furiously! The only concern I would have is all of that water vapor and so few ways out. My original drop tube pans acted like little geysers, and each was only 6 to 8 inches deep.

Be sure to have a video camera handy when you fire this up! We all want to see it!

[Starting Small]

Looks great, with this design do you have to lift the pan to dump out the syrup in the tubes?

[vtwoody]

Awesome idea of using "whatcha got" to make improvements....fire it up and share how well it works - we're all rooting for you! :)

[kinalfarm]

Vordu, I used stainless steel grab bars for my drop tubes. I got 40 taps out tonight before it got dark so we will see
How it does soon. This pan is hooked
To my other pan(syrup pan) so it's continues flow I don't have to dump the syrup out.

[500592]

Your cone filter tank looks great can't wait to see how the pans work

[kinalfarm]

Thanks for the complements and
Constructive criticism:)I have to clean pans and filter tank and
Put my pans On the arch and mount feed
Tube and float valve and clean tanks and pumps then I can fire it up and let everyone know how it works. Got another free as door kick Plate 3'x3' what should I make next?

[500592]

How bout a finisher that you could latter use it as a filter/canner with flat filters

[kinalfarm]

Boiled this morning I only had 100 gallons and the tube pan performed great I boiled I 4 hr. With start up time. I can e-mail the video to anyone

[RileySugarbush]

Thats great! I'd like to see your video. Can you send it to jabushey at Mac dot com.

Thanks

[spencer11]

can you send the video to atvfanatic08@aol.com

spencer

[Starting Small]

David.Mosher@horacemann.com if you get a chance, Thanks!

[vordus]

vordus@hotmail.com thanks

[spencer11]

lokins like its boiling awesome!

spencer

[RileySugarbush]

Thanks. Looks great. What is your stack temp?

[TimJ]

I'd like to see it too - thanks


thanks

[kinalfarm]

http://www.youtube.com/user/2012sugarin finally got it uploaded. thanks for your patience

[HyeOnMaple]

Hello John,

My name is Mark Dadian from NH. I read with great interest about your drop tube pan project, but when I tried to view your photos, I was unable to. Would you be willing to send those to me so I may construct my own pan. I have the 1" Greenlee (by chance from a tool box I inherited from my grand-father had 30 years ago) and plenty of 1" tubing (not sure yet how I want to close the ends, did crimping and soldering work for you?). What did you swedge the tubing with (I noticed that a 1" coupling fits perfectly over the hole with the tubing inside and I may solder that to the pan)? I really am a novice at maple production with grand ideas and great expectations, but I have some reliable skills with a torch.

Any suggestions you might add would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Mark
Hye on Maple
Laconia, NH

mark@hydropropw.com

[RileySugarbush]

I made a conical mandrel as a form and pounded it down into the open top to start a 45° flange. Then hand formed it to 90° and dropped it in.

I just sent an email with the old photos.

John