vacuum-tubing setup

[spencer11]

i am looking to have a vacuum next year and i am running 3-4 taps into 5 gal. buckets this year but want a full vacuum system. i am getting one of those bender milk releasers and then i need a vacuum pump? what kinds are best. it would only be about 80 taps max, my next queston is with just 80 taps(or less) do i need a mainline or could i just use lateral tubing for the whole thing and completaly ignore the saying strive for 5? or would i not get hardly any vac with lateral tubing even with my small amout of taps i will have? hopes this makes sence! thanks

spencer

[wiam]

You will get better vac at ends of lines if you strive for five on each 5/16 line. I would think you would be better with a mainline.

[spencer11]

is there a way to figure out how much vac i would loose? i will most likley just go with a 1/2" mainline anyway and maybe have another 20-30 taps going to the mainline. thanks.

spencer

[Maple Hobo]

is there a way to figure out how much vac i would loose? i will most likley just go with a 1/2" mainline anyway and maybe have another 20-30 taps going to the mainline. thanks.

spencer

Help yourself out with the vaccume and go at least 3/4".
1/2" line is really not worth the cost to install, IMHO, and is too narrow for most saddle connectios so you'll probably need to use lamb connections.

[spencer11]

so 3/4" it is. i am trying to get one of the small bender releasers now so i can use it next season. will 3/4" line work with those? it is the tall thin kind which i have seen used before but have no idea how to set it up yet. i still dont have the bender yet though..

spencer

[spencer11]

so i cut 3 roads for my mainline next year. i 260ft run, a 235ft run, and about a 300+ ft run. each of these mainlines will have a max of 40 taps on it but an average of 25-35. should i still use 3/4 inch mainline? i figure i could get away with 1/2 inch just cause of the price. i am planning on a vacuum. if my vacuum goes down or breaks or i loose pwr. will the sap still run on gravity? into the releaser?

spencer

[SSFLLC]

Spencer were in hopkinton are you.

[spencer11]

on the webster, hopkinton border-dustin rd.

spencer

[500592]

Another bender on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BENDER-MACHINE-WORKS-WASHER-RELEASER-HAYWARD-WISCONSIN-MODEL-1000-GOOD-/190634286922?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c62b05f4a#ht_800wt_765

[spencer11]

im watching that one to.


spencer

[sugaringman85]

go with 3/4...it may be more expensive but with that amount of taps it will be just fine...I have a sap puller on 75 taps behind my sugar house and with the 3/4 its like having extra vacuum reservoirs despite having small amounts of sap coming in. If you get a leak or something, it compensates a little better having the extra room in the mainline. I've never used a bender releaser but i would put in a bypass around the releaser just in case. I used to have an electric releaser on my main orchard that i would bypass at night because I didn't trust the electric releaser when i couldn't see it at night. I'm much happier with mechanical releasers that i have now

[sugaringman85]

also if you want to make a trip up to sunapee sometime before, during, or after the season to check out another operation your always welcome

[spencer11]

the benders are mechanical...or atleast the ones im gonna use so do i still need to by pass it? thanks

spencer

[sugaringman85]

a bypass is an easy safety measure incase something screws up on ya...granted it adds fittings which = potential leaks and bacteria growth points but i have them and use them once in a while

[spencer11]

im sure i can figure something out. thanks

spencer

[wiam]

You should not need a bypass on a mechanical releaser. For it to work it has to be higher than you tank and if sap is running with no vac it will just run though the releaser. Do not make it more complicated than it needs to be.

[spencer11]

okay thanks wiam. i just wasent sure what i needed to do. im looking at a bender releaser on ebay now. i think i finally know to to connect all the fittings. but would still like some pics of one setup if someone has any? i have also been told that i should use a gast 1550 vacuum pump. i have looked around ebay and google but havent found one. any info?

spencer

[Maple Hobo]

so i cut 3 roads for my mainline next year. i 260ft run, a 235ft run, and about a 300+ ft run. each of these mainlines will have a max of 40 taps on it but an average of 25-35. should i still use 3/4 inch mainline? i figure i could get away with 1/2 inch just cause of the price. i am planning on a vacuum. if my vacuum goes down or breaks or i loose pwr. will the sap still run on gravity? into the releaser?

spencer

I have 3/4" lateral lines (2-6 deg slope) so they keep the air bubble over the running sap. The vacuume needs to pass the sap, if you have a 1/2" line its harder to keep it from running solid and disrupting the vacuume.
If your using the sap lines into a main line... the main lines tend to run at a greater slope and the sap can block the vacuume easier.

The system should be designed to run on gravity. The gravity flow will pass through a releasor typicaly when its off. They normally have 2 flap valves that will swing free when the vacuume pump is off.

I don't know specificaly about the small bender releasers ? But normally they should be able to run free.

[spencer11]

so with the mainline i geuss i will go with 3/4. i have about a 7-10% slope is that to much more my mainline?(it would have vac on it). or would the sap fill it up and i would loose my vac? thanks

spencer

[lpakiz]

Spencer,
Here is a pic of my Bender setup. Notice both inlet and outlet checkvalves are oriented HORIZONTALLY. This allows sap to flow straight thru when there is flow and no vacuum (early in AM, for example) Also allows line and valves to empty themselves to prevent freeze-up. The "dump" checkvalve is partially hidden by the paper towel. It ends in a 90* elbow to dump down into the bulk tank. I did have to make a special little bracket to hold the discharge ball near the mouth of the seat, so it could be sucked back tight when the releaser finished dumping. PM me with any questions.Larry


5240

[spencer11]

Thanks Larry! That really will help alot. Does the sap go through the blue cylinder(a filter I think?) and is that the same hose as the vacuum hose? What is the hose at the bottom? Also, with the 7-10% slope I have is it worth it to run a vac or would I be better on 1/2" gravity mainline? Maybe put a vac a another bush Depending on tree configuration and slope. Thanks

Spencer

[500592]

Larry could you post some pics of where the rod comes up through on my thread help milk releaser thanks

[500592]

No it doesnt go through the cylinder I am pretty sure it is a mouisture trap

[spencer11]

That would make sence if it is a moisture trap. I thought it might be a sap filter. Thanks

Spencer

[lpakiz]

Yeah, 500 is right. The clear hose is vacuum from the MOISTURE TRAP to the releaser. It loops up to the roof of the shack to help keep foam from ever entering ther blue moisture trap. BTW, the blue moisture trap has a racketball sitting in the bottom. If sap were to get pulled out the top of the Bender, it goes into the blue moisture trap, floating the racketball up to the top, where it gets sucked onto the port inside, thus shutting off the flow of errant sap to the vacuum pump. Vacuum enters this whole contraption thru the black line to the right.
The blue hose at the bottom is sap coming into the Bender from the trees Notice that sap can flow straight thru when there is no vacuum applied.

[spencer11]

So is there a valve in the T price where the sap comes in? How does the sap go into the releaser and not go right into the tank? Does sap go into the moisture trap every time the realeaser fills up? How does it trigger the releaser to dump? (p.s. Still can't find a gast 1550 vacuum pump.)

Spencer

[500592]

Here is a pump you could sell the other piece http://www.dougdeals.com/p-6789-vacutrade-ab-502-3-ph-lift-vacuum-w-gast-34hp-pump.aspx

[500592]

Here is an even better http://www.nebraskatool.com/vacuum_pumps.htm you better jump on it that looks identical to mine.

[spencer11]

The second link you gave me, how do I buy the pump from that site? Is it like eBay or craigslist? Or is it like a store? Thanks

Spencer

[500592]

Try emailing them or calling

[lpakiz]

Spencer,
The sap flows straight thru only when there is NO VACUUM. When there is vacuum, the check valve to the right (right behind the rag) CLOSES so the vacuum can't pull sap backwards. There are TWO check valves in this system-an INLET checkvalve and an exit (or dump) check valve. Both are oriented to let sap move to the right. The inlet check valve (to the left) opens upon sap flow and lets sap enter the jar. When vacuum is applied, the exit check valve closes to prevent back flow. Incoming sap opens the inlet valve.
The Bender float causes it to dump--when the float rises to the top. It cuts off vacuum to the Bender and admits vent air, relieving the vacuum and allowing sap to fall out (to the right)
Bottom line is... you need two check valves to make this work, one on each side of the glass nipple under the Bender jar.

[spencer11]

The more I look at your picture the more it makes sence. Could the sap ever freeze in the releaser and break the glass? Or do you have the vacuum on a time so it would turn off at night when it freezes? What happens if the sap is frozen in the tubing and the vacuum is on? Anything? Thanks larry.

Spencer

[lpakiz]

Spencer,
I suppose if something occurred that the exit valve retained sap, it could back up into the jar and freeze. Hasn't happened in 2 seasons (yet)
Preventing freezing is the main reason that the check valves are set up as they are--so they drain everything when vacuum is not running.
We have a gas engine with an overhead gas can hanging from the ceiling. We give it enough gas to run as long as we want, then it runs out of gas and shuts off. Depends on when we estimate things will freeeze up. Sommetimes it runs all night. Usually tho, it is around 6-8PM.
When the line is froze in the morning, nothing much happens except I have REALLY GOOD numbers on the vacuum guage :) Ice jams up the inlet check valve and nothing moves. As soon as I get some moving sap, it starts to thaw out the valve pretty fast.
We use an SP-11 and it runs 200 taps no problem. Usually carry 21 HG but I have seen 24.

[spencer11]

thanks larry that makes sence now that i think about it.

spencer

[spencer11]

500- I emailed the guy with the vast 1550 and he said the last time he ran it it seemed short on suction. What is the typical HG that it would run at? Thanks

Spencer

[500592]

I thought mine was too but it read 20 inches you could get a rebuild kit

[spencer11]

where can i get a rebuild kit? thanks

spencer

[500592]

Ask 3rdgen you may have to go to sugarbushinfo to contact him

[spencer11]

just pm'd him. how would i attach the tubing to a manifold with a 3/4 pvc ball valve? i plan on having 3 mainlines going onto 1 mainfild(3 seperate ball valves) i have seen them with ball valves do i need them? are they a good idea?

spencer

[500592]

A threaded adapter the has barbs and the other end is threaded so it screws into the manifold I actually got some blue 8 inch potable water pip today that is 5/8 inches thick! The piece is like 4 or 5 feet long I plan on making a couple of manifolds I may sell one I just need to get some lexan

[spencer11]

i was thinking about making a pvc U shaped one with 3 "T"s on it for my 3 mainlines. i bet that hose isnt that flexable at 5/8" thick!

spencer

[500592]

It's not even hose i think I is for under ground city water the guy I got it from had a bunch to choose from but that one was the shortest size

[spencer11]

should i make a 3/4 inch manifold pipe or should it be bigger, like 1-1.5 inch?

spencer

[500592]

I would try to make it 2 inch

[spencer11]

2 inch would be better actually. i have some 2 inch pvc. i dont know what psi its rated to tho. does it matter?

spencer

[500592]

No it don't matter it is probably sch 40.

[spencer11]

well i will see what i come up with. the releaser i want ends in a day. only going to $100 maybe $110 on that. then need a pump.

spencer

[spencer11]

If I'm using a bender with a gast 1550 pump, do I need a wet/dry line or just a wet line? That goes into the bender from the vac pump? Thanks

Spencer