Max Length of Run for 5/16 on Steep Slopes?

[Clarkfield Farms]

I'm hoping to be able to at least get tapping some of the trees on our new parcel, at least along the one property line hedgerow. The thing is, I don't know if there's a theoretical or practical limit to the length of using 5/16 tubing. What I have is one of the runs that is about 1,600 feet horizontal distance, but slope distance will be much more because the average slope runs between 25-35%, and even the "flat" sections are a bit steep. Together with the zig-zagging (minimal), there'll be about 1,900-2,000 feet of line. The terrain isn't uniform, but the total head/drop is just over 100 feet to where I plan the collection tank to be. As I said, this is a hedgerow line, there will be no laterals, and probably only about 33-38 total taps on the line. Is this practical, or should I look into something else such as 3/4" mainline, or ---? Thanks in advance.

- Tim

[Kirk]

I listened to a presentation by Tim Wilmot of UVM Proctor at Verona. He is proposing using 3/16" tubing instead of 5/16" in situations like this. Over the last two seasons, he has had good luck with creating a natural vacuum with the 3/16" setup - somewhere around 25" at most of the taps. Basically, you are flooding the lateral (3/16" has 1/3 the volume of 5/16" per foot) and relying on elevation head to create vacuum within your closed lateral. I think it's a neat concept and I'm going to try a few runs this year.

Dominion and Grimm USA is special making some 3/16" rolls and selling a limited number of them. It's the same price as their 5/16", $52. McMaster Carr makes tubing fittings that work with the smaller tubing.

Here's an article he wrote on this topic: http://www.farmingmagazine.com/article-7484.aspx

[sjdoyon]

You got the best response from Kirk. I'm operating on the side of a mountain at about 2,000ft level and have some areas with a 25-30% slope down to the sugar house and we ran 1" laterals off the 1 1/4", 1 1/2" mainlines and on vacuum. Since you're probably running the lines yourself, not having to run laterals will save you a lot of labor and time on that grade of slope. Get ready to lose a few pounds, excellent workout. Good luck.

3x10 Inferno Arch
4,000+ Taps
7,5 HP Vacuum pump
Lapierre 600gph RO
3 SS 1500 gallon tanks
24x32 Sugarhouse




I listened to a presentation by Tim Wilmot of UVM Proctor at Verona. He is proposing using 3/16" tubing instead of 5/16" in situations like this. Over the last two seasons, he has had good luck with creating a natural vacuum with the 3/16" setup - somewhere around 25" at most of the taps. Basically, you are flooding the lateral (3/16" has 1/3 the volume of 5/16" per foot) and relying on elevation head to create vacuum within your closed lateral. I think it's a neat concept and I'm going to try a few runs this year.

Dominion and Grimm USA is special making some 3/16" rolls and selling a limited number of them. It's the same price as their 5/16", $52. McMaster Carr makes tubing fittings that work with the smaller tubing.

Here's an article he wrote on this topic: http://www.farmingmagazine.com/article-7484.aspx

[Clarkfield Farms]

lol, yeah that hill is part of the land we bought which is part of the farm I grew up on. You learn how to walk a whole different way on hills like that or you won't last too long.

So, in answer to my question, I'd be right in thinking that this long of a run is not too long?

[Bucket Head]

I don't know much about the 3/16" line experiments so I can't comment on that set up. The question should be is the 3/16" tube good for carrying the sap volume 2000 feet to the collection point? It seems like the sap would be restricted trying to get from the last tap to the tank. It is quite a distance from the last tree to the tank, correct?

And future plans should be thought about before doing all 3/16" tubing. Are there more tapable trees nearby? Would you ever consider tapping those too? If so, there's more sap volume to handle. There are lot's of old dairy vacuum pumps around here. Is a vacuum system something you might try as you expand? Thats a completely different set up than the experimental 3/16' system. You may want to put up a tubing system that would alow for expansion down the road instead of buying one set up and having to do it over later. Thats the trouble with sugaring- doing something one way, thinking its good, but then realizing it is'nt working out as well, and forcing "Plan B" into action. Which always costs more and takes up more time to implement. Do your homework and give all possible future plans a lot of thought first.

Steve

[Clarkfield Farms]

I don't know much about the 3/16" line experiments so I can't comment on that set up. The question should be is the 3/16" tube good for carrying the sap volume 2000 feet to the collection point? It seems like the sap would be restricted trying to get from the last tap to the tank. It is quite a distance from the last tree to the tank, correct?

And future plans should be thought about before doing all 3/16" tubing. Are there more tapable trees nearby? Would you ever consider tapping those too? If so, there's more sap volume to handle. There are lot's of old dairy vacuum pumps around here. Is a vacuum system something you might try as you expand? Thats a completely different set up than the experimental 3/16' system. You may want to put up a tubing system that would alow for expansion down the road instead of buying one set up and having to do it over later. Thats the trouble with sugaring- doing something one way, thinking its good, but then realizing it is'nt working out as well, and forcing "Plan B" into action. Which always costs more and takes up more time to implement. Do your homework and give all possible future plans a lot of thought first.

Steve

Steve, horizontal distance from last tap to tank will only be about 35-45 feet or so, vertical drop along that short distance will be the smallest on the line, perhaps only 6 feet. I don't have any plans for buying/using 3/16" tubing. All of my tubing is from Dave Klish's (maple flats') generosity, giving me his excess 5/16". In that regard, it hasn't cost me anything for tubing so far. (Thanks very much again, Dave!) The collection tank for this line would actually be right where my future sugar house will be, making it easy on me then - at least for this line.

There's potential for about 145 taps here on this property, but this particular line (south side of the property, the land all lies to the east of King Rd.) will probably always be just a separate hedgerow line because of the topography of the parcel. There are precious few young maples coming on along that line, and the idiot trespassers that have been illegally hunting here are a menace as much to the maples as to people: the ONLY trees that they cut down for their treestands and shooting lanes were maple. Buckthorn, hawthorne, thorn apple, ash, cherry, poplar, basswood, sweet birch, elm -- nah, leave them, cut the maple! aaarrgghhh!! The land is such that of the 145 or so, this southern line will carry only 33-38 taps for the foreseeable future. Over the hill on the same southerly hedgerow, on the far side going away from the road (eastern side), another 45-50 taps. On the opposite side of the property (northern line), top of the hill, one huge solitary maple in perfect health, about 6' diameter, then nothing until down at the bottom. Not sure that one tree would ever be worth tapping. It's about 900 feet or more away from any other maples, and those are too small to tap for about 10 or 12 more years. But at the bottom of the hill on that side, a lot of very good maples and a lot of good young ones coming on. That side is an entirely different story and I would plan on vacuum in the future. I just can't get to it this year, maybe not even next year. There are a lot of other things in line in front of those plans. There are virtually no maples along the easterly/back line, or on the eastern half of the property other than the hedgerow maples mentioned above.

I'm doing my homework, planning and revising, wishing there were more maples here than there are or will be, calculating the costs of the various setups in those plans and revisions, planning on planting maples every year even though I won't be around when they're big enough to tap, on and on. I guess I'm bitten. Didn't think I would be! It's just frustrating waiting for things to come together that are beyond my control but that frustration is also a good motivator for doing the things I can control. I know you know what I mean. Together with knowing the mentality of the trespassers and that they've already been rotten and vindictive because of the "there's a new marshall in town" syndrome (me) that they don't like and the very strong possibility of them tampering with the tubing, and me living about 8 miles away... yes, frustrating would be a good word but it doesn't deter me from going ahead with reasonable/wise plans no matter what speed bump(kins?)s I hit. :)

- Tim

[Bucket Head]

Tim,

It sounds like you've got a good plan already drawn up for the tubing, and knowing the land like the back of your hand does'nt hurt either, lol!

As for the trespassers and/or vandals, thats a tough one. Are they hunters who are not allowed on the property anymore or are they folks on atv's and snowmobiles, or a little bit of both? Usually..., hunters are respectful, but the kids (and some adults) on the motorized stuff could'nt care less what they wreck. To many of them, wrecking stuff is most of the fun. I know a producer out towards Winfield who had a heck of a problem with vandalism from folks riding through his property.

I guess the only advice I could offer if the problem is atv's and snowmobiles is, if possible, don't string tubing across where any of the trails are. Just like fence lines, they will surely be cut or ripped down every time you visit the woods. They will ride where they want to- period. As for hunting, maybe you could give permission, but stipulate "no tree cutting, removing lines, etc., or your out- and you'll be held financially responsible for the losses". Something that would get the point across to anyone getting permission to use the land.

Then again, maybe you don't want anyone on the property, which is understandable. I would'nt want people all over my property either. But its hard policing that, and the harder you try, the harder the vandals work.

Steve

[Clarkfield Farms]

You're right, Steve, but I've learned that for me at least the usual escalation of - hostilities? - is pointless; if it's going to eventually end up requiring nuking this type of scum, forget about escalating, nuke 'em now and don't stop. That's the only way it's ever worked over here on Kellogg St.; 24 years ago, it was unbelievable. I did 100% of what I had to do (i.e., launched nukes and kept launching); 52 of them either warned or ticketed by local law enforcement that first year, including at least one officer that I personally caught. It never ends, they just have learned to respect the fact that if they shout, I shoot, if they shoot I nuke. Very little in the way of retribution from anyone since. But over on the subject property, it's been in my father's name for decades and with him turning 94 last year, and me not having actively worked that land since about 1991, they've done just what you're saying - treating it like they own it. But they do it sneaky, cowardly; last March, Dave Klish came up to walk it in advance of us buying it in April so that he could give me advice about best uses for maple and also because I had talked with a guy about coming to take a look at the stand of pulp trees I had planted in 1979, and Dave was going to give me an idea of a fair price for the pulp logs. The last I had seen that stand, way over on the southeastern corner of the property over the hill, the area I that had spaced them for timber/pulp was doing great. DBH averaged about 22" back then, so I figured they'd be great by now and would help recover a bit of the cost of purchasing. Well, besides the obvious fact that things had grown up considerably over 20 years of neglect and it was a little tough to get my head around where things were now, it became clear that the small stand had been logged off about 7 or so years earlier. My father, who still golfs and whose mind and memory are also still great, told me he never gave anyone permission to do anything, figuring that I did the work and I'd be buying it some day. Some stinking thief (I'm sure of who it was, I can't prove it; not one of the neighbors, he's a few miles farther into the hills) had made a road in from the old Unadilla Road (do you know where that is?), up the old abandoned Post Road (both roads abandoned back after the Civil War), and into my property, took the trees. Since then, I've had the DEC in there, found several treestands, DEC told me to take them if I wanted them. Found even more treestands when I was posting it. Then in early September, one of the local kids asked my father for permission to hunt the property and my Dad said yes before he remembered that he didn't own it anymore. So I called the kid, made it clear he could bowhunt only, NO CUTTING OF ANYTHING (I thought that would also make him decide not to hunt there since it's so overgrown). Well, I went up there a few days after talking with him.... freshly cut trees, more treestands (yes plural), and a swath about 35' wide cut around the perimeter of the old field on the top of the hill, using the same access point into the land that the previous tree thief had used. I KNOW it was the same kid, not only him but the trees cutting and field cutting I know it was... and, he did it at least 2 weeks before he even asked my Dad. Because I grew up there, the vandalism and retribution has been minimal, but I am concerned about tubing vandalsim, not catching some "innocent" person; I've barricaded the old opening that the thieves made and used. The property boundaries are emminently clear: 200+ year old limestone walls, with barbed wire and very old hedgerows. Not to mention lots of posted signs. Either the snow has to be deep enough for them to clear waist-high stone walls, or they'll have to clear a way in. If so, look southeast for mushroom clouds.

The DEC and State Police are very familiar with this crowd. In fact the DEC asked me if I would mind leaving one of the treestands up (the last one they put up, after gun season started; there was a dead gut-shot buck only 15' from it, shot during the bow-only season) so that they could incorporate the stand into a sort of a wide-net sting operation that they were planning for that area last hunting season, some locals and some that come from as far away as Long Island. After weighing the pros and cons, I decided that the potential long-term feud vs. the short-term "we got one" wasn't worth it, so I put another posted sign about 25' up on the tree with that treestand, directly where the trespasser's back would rest, and wrote on the sign that this was the last straw, remove it or I'll more than just confiscate this one as well, per the DEC officer's name and phone number. The next day, the stand was down and lying in the adjoing farmer's field (he's also elderly, and they' been making a terrible mess of his property for years, he just can't get up there anymore), and ALL the posted signs within 300 feet either side of that treestand were gone.

This is Year One. I've got too many other things going on to have to deal with this burr-under-the-saddle stuff as well. I may be harsh but if I want to cut down a big tree, I wouldn't do it 1/2" a year. Chainsaw, baby. These guys are cowardly thieves. There's no nice way to deal with them. I have a friend in the electronic security business, I may go that way because these guys look for trail cams. I'm glad it's being done now, because there's a huge amount of leverage in that they still highly respect my father and don't want to anger him. So, that's about the size of it. Sorry I got long-winded again.

- Tim

EDIT - P.S. -- Something else: This summer, right in the middle of the woods over the hill, I found 3 places where someone within the last 4 or 5 years put fenceposts with posted signs that read, "This land is for horseback riding only. Non-riders of any description are considered unauthorized persons and their presence is strictly forbidden." Well, gee, I'm supposing that means ME? lol! Signs and fenceposts are gone, trails blocked. Game on.

[Bucket Head]

Tim,

No apologies are needed for a long-winded response here. They are interesting reads, as was yours. Well, you definately have more going on there than the usual trespasser or atv rider. Like I said, usually hunters obey if they had to come and ask permission first. I see now that the group your dealing with strongly believes in the, "Whats theirs is theirs, and whats yours is theirs" saying. And I don't know what to say about the logging incident. Thats unbelievable. I agree, the time for trying to be nice is over- its time for law enforcement do do something. Also, maybe with you walking the property (or maybe an atv would be worth it?) frequently, on a regular basis, will show those folks that your around and your watching. Unfortunately, the long intervals of time when niether you or your father went up there allowed the time for the cutting to take place. Be seen and be heard and things will slowly get back to where you want them.

Steve

[adk1]

I will have some runs that are well over 150
feet. I was just walking in the bush and was thinking that I should run another 3/4" mainline perpendicular to my existing mainline and connect with the Y fitting. My setup right now isnt ideal, I will have some runs that are 150+ and then some runs that are 30' with few taps. Just not ideal I guess. BUt I am gonna run it I guess. BEtter order another 1000' of lateral line. Will start running lines next weekend. Anyone else have a mainline that is perpendicular to another one?