More flat pan questions

[Leo]

Hi, I am having a 34 X 64 flat pan made for a concrete arch. One of the guys I talked to said he could make one large pan or a combination of two pans with fittings to plumb them together for about the same price. What are the advantages or draw backs of using two pans?

[toquin]

Leo . I have 2 flat pans (3x6) one is a warming pan with a preheater in it under a steam hood. The front pan is the syrup pan. We boil 8-12 hrs and shut it down at night and take the batch off in the morning. I think you would make syrup faster with 2 pans.

[Leo]

Thanks Toquin, anybody else got any advice on using two pans versus one?
Thanks,
Leo

[Jec]

weel there is many advantages with 2 pans. When you have 2 pans your back pan will do most of the boiling. Your sap will enter in the back and travel around partitions in the pan. After it does alot of boiling, it will enter the front pan. That is where it will become almost syrup. It also allows you to draw off in small batches. You might only draw off a gallon at a time. So, you will save time. As you draw off the back pan will stay boiling so you will get better gph.
Hope this helps,
Joey

[SeanD]

There really aren't any drawbacks to having two pans especially if he is going to do it for around the same price. One big advantage will be that you can move them on and off and clean them a lot more easily. If you have him put fittings on, be sure to add fittings on the front ends. While you are at it, put dividers in to get the full effect of having a continuous flow and gradient. Then you'll be able to draw off and when you are done for the night, you can leave the sweet in the pans and pick up where you left off next time.

It sure beats batch boiling. No disrespect to the batchers out there, but I absolutely hated the part where I had to lift that pan off a very hot fire and pour off the syrup. You can also shut down and close off the two pans to keep it from diluting.

With flat pans, your hard boil will be on the front pan. It's hard to get that back pan going when it is flat.

Good luck,
Sean

[Ausable]

Hi, I am having a 34 X 64 flat pan made for a concrete arch. One of the guys I talked to said he could make one large pan or a combination of two pans with fittings to plumb them together for about the same price. What are the advantages or draw backs of using two pans?

Hi Leo - I have a homemade rig. My Arch is from a 250 gal. Fuel Oil tank. I have one large flat pan - made by my Son (machinist and fabricator) and Grandson (Welder) - made from sheet steel (forgot the gauge) - but takes two men to lift (or two angry ladies) and I really like it. It is 2'x5' and devided into syrup and sap pans after the 2'x5' pan was built. The two sap pans are 12" x 24" each and the the three syrup pans are 8" X 36" each. all inter-connected. I have isolating plugs between the last sap pan and the first syrup pan - also - between the second and last syrup pans. Great for shutting down and leaving the pans sweetened or if you should run out of sap during a boil and have to flood the sap pans with water and dont want to scorch the pans or loose any syrup. In the last syrup pan we installed threaded collars for a draw off valve and thermometer. The single large devided pan sits great on top of the arch the way it was designed and built. We picked the brains of several old sugarmakers on what they would do if building a flat bottomed rig of their own and added a lot of our own ideas. So far it works for me as a backyarder. Naturally my Off-Spring would like to make it bigger and better. OK - to your question - the downside is that it is heavy - however - it has a drawoff valve and I have a scoop so dont have to remove it for cleaning. If I have an Arch problem - firebrick etc. I can always get help to lift it off for repairs. ----the Plus side is leveling is simpler. The most important thing of all is - what does Leo want - what will work best for You and Your situation. - What ever you decide - make lots of great syrup -----Mike

[Peepers]

That's an awesome quote Mike!

but takes two men to lift (or two angry ladies) :lol:
I'm liking the coupling idea more and more. Gives a lot more flexibility all around.

Only two downsides I can think of with multiple pans would be the initial cost a little bit higher due to connectors and extra sheet metal then there is the additional risk of leaks (but I'm guessing sticky stuff will plug slow leaks pretty quick right?). I think the benefits of smaller, lighter pans that can be isolated by valve or plug when needed (to vary the setup or drain/fix/clean something) would outweigh the cost IMO. I was thinking of upgrading to a 2x4 flat pan this year but as the design, research and thinking of years gone by has progressed, I'm thinking more along the line of two 2x2 pans. Maybe with dividers...

I did the batch thing up to now scooping from one side of my old kitchen sink to the other and am anxious to progress to a more continuous flow and a draw off valve. Having to scoop most of the batch out (fast) and then flooding the pan with sap (fast) before it scorches gets sorta old. :)

[lastwoodsman]

I boiled last spring with a 2x4 flat pan no dividers and a 2x2 flat pan in front of the syrup pan which had no dividers on a 2x6 arch. I had drawoffs on both. The two pans were not connected.
I would move concenrated sap gradually as it boiled down to the front pan until I had almost syrup which I would drawoff and finish on propane.
Underneath the pans I put vemiculite insulation with 3 inches of the back pan and sprinkled motar mix on top of it and wetted it down. It never moved the entire season.The rear pan boiled as hot as the front pan unless I had just thrown wood in.

Woodsman

[Ausable]

Leo - On reading your question again - Are You talking Batch Pans with no deviders. Or a pan or pans that you plan on putting deviders in and making a flow thru out of. If You are talking Batch Pan - Sure - Two pans are better. If it is a flow thru set up with deviders and a sap section and syrup section - it is all interconnected and probably wouldn't make much difference. I made syrup using the batch method for a lot of years and it works - But a flow-thru setup is far more efficient even in flat pans.

[Ecnerwal]

Speaking as a long-time open batch flat-pan user thinking of getting religion as I think about starting up again, I thought I had understood that even with the pans divided/baffled, common practice was a divided evaporator (with flues if not flat) and a divided syrup pan (often or perhaps even always flat) rather than one long baffled pan.

[Ausable]

Speaking as a long-time open batch flat-pan user thinking of getting religion as I think about starting up again, I thought I had understood that even with the pans divided/baffled, common practice was a divided evaporator (with flues if not flat) and a divided syrup pan (often or perhaps even always flat) rather than one long baffled pan.

Ecnerwal - You understood correctly - especially with raised and drop flue sap pans in the mix. However - mine was a homemade rig without flues and that is the way I wanted it built - LOL - for now. Subject to change. Where did Leo go? ----Ekim--

[smokeyamber]

Connected pans means you don't have to lift that huge pan with boiling sap ... Also with batching I move stuff from rear to front continuously and then draw the almost syrup off the front. This works great and with a smaller front pan you can finish smaller batches, on my steam pan setup this also lets me lift the pan out and clean it between batches. I would also have you pans made in a standard 2x sizing to plan for future upgrades like flue pan or divided pans... they will come ... :D

[Leo]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Mike, I have been on vaction under the palm trees . . .
If I go with two pans it sounds like one of the advantages is the ability to move them off the arch easier. but if I have them connected it seems like I would lose that advantage - correct?
I'm not sure my budget will allow for dividers in the pans, so, if I have two pans without divders, would I be better off to have them connected so I can allow sap to flow from the back pan to the front pan, or would I be better off to just ladle from back to front and keep the advantage of being able to move them off easier. I am a rookie (obviously) and really appreciate the patient advice.

[Ausable]

Hey Leo - We are all learning all the time. Just get a little arrogant and that is when you scorch the pans and get another lesson in humility. Good Question You ask - You could go either way. With a divided flow through setup or batch pans - When your first start a boil - you have a couple of inches of plain old maple sap all through your pans. You know the drill on the way you do it now with batch pans. Anyway - on a flow through as the water boils off in steam - you would start adding a little more sap in the first section of your sap pans - maybe even have a trickle to maintain about 1 1/2 to 2 inches of liquid throughout your inter-connected pans. You keep boiling and boiling and adding sap and you will start to notice that in the last channel of your syrup pan it ain't sap no more. So You open your draw off valve and take a sample and gently lower you syrup hydrometer into it - whoops! sitting on the bottom - still to thin - so ya dump the sample back and keep a boiling. You finally take a sample and "Dang" the hydrometer is floating and you are close to syrup - this is the point you would make your first drawoff - maybe a quart or even a gallon - all depends on the size of your evaporator. This is where I would Filter my almost syrup for the first time. This step is repeated till you run out of sap or you just want to call it a day. Now there are a few tricks in pulling your fire and leaving your pans sweetened on a flow through - but - I'll end here. Hey - to answer your question - Either way would be ok - but - I think with just the two pans I might keep them seperate for now if You would be more comfortable that way. No big gain by connecting them. ----Mike---

[Leo]

Thanks Mike, I want to keep things simple until I get a little experience. I have a stamp that I wear on my forehead that says "mechanically disadvantaged" - so simple is good. I try to read just about every thing that is posted here but often the mechanics of the conversatons go over my head.