Want to try small runs on 5/16 tubing.....

[NJG]

Hi folks. I've been pouring over these threads for some time now trying to come up with the best plan for a newby like me. Although I think I have found the answers I was looking for, it seems every thread on this subject is just a little different that what I am trying to accomplish. I would really welcome your opnions.

Our woods is pretty much flat, with tap sized maples scattered around a little. We will never have a vac system here but I want to try making a few small gravity runs all on 5/16 tubing, with 10 to 15 taps per run, and have them feed into a central collecting tank. My plan is to keep them tight, zig-zag from one tree to another where needed, and keep between 3% and 5% slope on the tubing. I shouldn't need to use anything but the "T's" for the individual drops/taps. In order to get the 10 to 15 taps per run, I'm thinking I would have a total tubing length per run of anywhere from 50 feet to 150 feet, depending on where I tap. If I understand this right, I'm really not going after a natural vac here, but basically just making collecting sap a little easier.

Now, assuming that this will work as I described it, here are a couple questions I have:

1) Our land is not near our home. Pretty much a bunch of long weekends to boil and collect. Even though it's all woods trees, do you think I would have problems with sap going bad in the lines during short intermittant runs?

2) If lines are full of sap but its not running real strong, any problems with removing the uppermost tap, draining the line, then reinstalling that tap?

3) I've read a few posts about using hot water in a thermos for attaching fittings. Any problems with doing this to try it for the first year?

Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm planning on sticking with our usual 50 buckets (very small, for now.....) and trying one or two of these small tubing runs this year to see how it goes.

[Rossell's Sugar Camp]

1 and 2 should not matter. You will be fine. not much will linger in a tight system. Hot water will work but be careful just to dip the first half inch. any further and it will bend and kink by your hand. do not chew on the tubing. that introduces bacteria. You can strech the tubing ends with a pair of slip ring pliers if you want. or just get needle nosed pliers and pull on them to strech out the end. only do this with gravity systems though. this makes vacuum leaks if you use vacuum. A tubing tool would be your best bet if you can borrow one from somebody. You will get natural vacuum too with what you discribed. Dont worry about 1 and 2 though. you will be fine

[maple flats]

Don't remove the top tap to drain sap, this introduces bacteria which then starts closing off the tap hole. That practice will shorten your season. Make sure you have large enough collection barrels. You should have at least 1 gal/tap/day and then on good days that will be far too little. If you have 15 taps and sap runs 5 days you will sometimes run over if you don't have over a 75 gal tank

[buxtonboiler]

What you are describing is exactly what I do. I use a thermos full of boiling water to soften the tubing, only takes a few seconds. I have 25 taps on a 50 ft run all on 5/16" into a 55 gallon barrel that I pump out daily. usually only 1/2 full except on real good days. All the sap will eventually come out as long as tubing is tight with no sags. I use cheap 6" turnbuckles attached to electricians type chinese fingers so that I can tighten my tubing as the weather warms and it gets full of sap. Happy Sugarin'

[Groves]

Which T's do you use? Any problem with the T's pulling out?

I've got about 20ft between trees on a row of 12 good sized maples I'd like to put tubing on.

Did you run the entire length and then cut in the T's? Or did you just start at one end and build it as you went?

[Goggleeye]

You won't be able to pull the T's out if you try. I've run up to 125 feet and strung the line tight as a banjo string and never had troubles. If you don't get the lines on both barbs of the fittings, you may have trouble as the line ages. I've noticed in those cases, if you wiggle the line on the fitting, you can pull it off. I've used a couple different brands, I don't think it matters.
As far as running the line, I put an end-line ring at the top, wire it to the tree, and run my line to the bottom, but don't cut it off yet. Then work from the top, keeping the line tight above you (It's nice to have help doing this) and splice in your T's ( I would make drops with ahead of time and put them on the T's so they are ready to splice in.) as you work your way toward the bottom. At the bottom, I connect the line to the vertical part of the T, then one of the arms will go the last tap, the other down to a bucket or barrel at the tree. Leave about 6" at least from your top and bottom tree so you have room to tighten your line without having to cut off line.

Mark

[NJG]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm looking forward to doing a little experimenting this year. If it works out I'm hoping to take a crack at making a tubing tool.

Funny you mention filling up 55 gallon barrels buxtonboiler. The last couple years I have been kind of surprised that even after a good five days of what I would think of as good sap weather, I have found that I end up with as little as 1 gallon of sap in some of my buckets. The sad thing is, as I have been pouring over these threads about tubing, I keep seeing folks making references to making sure the end of the tubing is not sitting in sap, and that the sap can be sucked back into the tree. I'm afraid to ask, but is this really true? I have been purposely setting my buckets and drop tubes up so the tube is right on the bottom. Part of me wishes it is true so I can expect a little more sap in the buckets this year!!

[SevenCreeksSap]

I welded up a tubing tool from pics posted here and it is much easier than pushing them in. IMHO. I'm sure some like to push them in, my fingers are getting old. I had a thread a couple of pages back in this category and a bunch posted pics. I didnt because mine looked just like theirs. good ideas.

[Sugarmaker]

We have 550 ish taps on short run tubing 20 taps into 35-40 gallon containers.
I over heated the fittings with hot water and the lines pulled apart. I recommend a tubing tool.
I developed a tightening system for 20 tap runs so that the lines can be tight and down hill to the container. I use several mfg fittings since no one makes a system of this type. We have 30-31 sets on all road side maples it works and saves 50% of the gathering time.
email: Chris@mapleandhoney.com
Regards,
Chris

[Goggleeye]

How far can a person run 5/16 tubing on gravity? As I'm expanding, I'm trying to tie in more trees, but am ending up with nearly 150 to 200 foot runs with a drop of 10 feet, at best. I have anywhere from 10 to 20 taps on these runs. Anyone have any experience with gravity runs that long? at that low of a slope?

Mark

[SevenCreeksSap]

How far can a person run 5/16 tubing on gravity? As I'm expanding, I'm trying to tie in more trees, but am ending up with nearly 150 to 200 foot runs with a drop of 10 feet, at best. I have anywhere from 10 to 20 taps on these runs. Anyone have any experience with gravity runs that long? at that low of a slope?

Mark

I hope. I could do some 350 or 400 ft with 25-30 taps on a steep hill. still dont know if thats too long

[maple flats]

I think 200' with only a 10' drop (5%) is too long, if the drop was a lot better it likely would be better. At 5% slope you will develope some vacuum but not a lot. The next issue I found before vacuum was on runs that had taps near the bottom, the bottom tap had pressure on it, not vacuum unless there is good slope after the last tap. I found this by getting a tree rat chew at the lowest tap, sap was shooting out. I pulled the tap and it shot out full stream and shot the sap up about 3' like a fountain. I then decided that the lowest tree was being fed sap and as such it would soon seal itself off because of micro organisims.

[Clarkfield Farms]

Hi, Dave. This sounds a lot like the question I asked you earlier today regarding suggested max length on run for 5/16; instead of me hijacking this thread it may be better if I ask in a new one.

[Bucket Head]

Hey Yeastpimp,

How have you been? Are you planning on some long runs of tubing this year?

Steve

[Clarkfield Farms]

Hi Steve! Well, there'll be one long one. I just started another thread on it asking for advice if you'd care to chime in. I think you know how steep the hillsides are over on the east side of King Road, this is the first season since we bought the property. As far as we know, never been tapped. If I can't get together everything that I need, I may not even be tapping this year.

[Hop Kiln Road]

I've been shortening my gravity laterals for several years after noting my bucket production per tap was always 20% higher than my line production. And, I added a flow meter to my collection pump, just to be sure. This year I'm going to have a 50 tap 1/2" mainline with less than 2 taps per lateral of less than 10' in length. I think 10 or 15 tap laterals, regardless of slope, can not handle peakflows, more or less the same theory as the wet/dry lines in larger vacuum systems. Also tap and tubing placement is far more critical on a gravity system, particularly tap placement on the larger trees.

[SeanD]

Looks like a gaggle of us are going gravity tubing with long 5/16" this year. We'll have to share our results.

For me it's just about collection time. Last year 44 taps took an hour because they are so spread out. This year I'll be hitting 90, so I need a timesaver. If I get a natural vacuum, it's just a bonus. At the same time, though I hope I don't lose production.

Hey Bruce,

Could you say a little more about the critical tubing and tap placement? Do you mean the height of the tap?
Also, what flow meter do you use?

Sean

[Hop Kiln Road]

Sean - I got a 1" flow meter from assured automation and attached it right to the side of my gathering tank, so everytime I pump a field tank I can record the volume. In gravity systems, obviously tap low on the tree and I try to have a least 12" of height difference between the tap and the mainline. I use a 30" dropline and I think it is critical in a gravity system that the entire dropline stay above the level of the mainline and there are no dips in the dropline so when the flow stops, the dropline drains completely. Same goes for the mainline, a dip or sag that doesn't drain might freeze overnight and slow a production restart. You have probably seen bucket trees running even though they still have ice hanging off the spouts. Still water freezes before moving water, and if the tree wants to push out sap, an unconstricted gravity system will run when the air temperature is below freezing. I also think it is important to separate the gas from the sap as soon as possible. I think gravity systems can collect over 20 gpt/season if properly constructed. Bruce

[palmer4th]

I also am looking to add some small runs, what is the best way to keep the tubing tight at the collection end of the line?

[SeanD]

Bruce,

Thanks for all the info and advice. Makes sense.

Palmer, I'm not an expert, but I'm planning on setting up my barrels near a tree then using an end ring fitting to secure it to the tree then make a drop down to the barrels.

Sean

[NJG]

Thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate it. And have no fear of hikacking this thread, I'm enjoying all the replies!!

[Four D Acre Farms]

I also am looking to add some small runs, what is the best way to keep the tubing tight at the collection end of the line?
i have found that the parid strap by cdl woks excellent for my long runs and for the tanks end to put alittle strectch in the tubing and if the tubing sags with temps rising or volume af sap in the tubing i can stretch and move the hook a litttle to tighten

[Starting Small]

I am installing 10 taps tomorrow between 5 or 6 trees along a driveway. There is no slope so I am assuming that the 2 most imortant things are tight lines and starting high on the tree trunk of the first tree and then ending low on the last. Also, since I will be wanting to cross the driveway, can the drop line be the width of the driveway? I have 4 trees on one side and 2 on the other. Ideally I would like to have it all on the same 5/16 line to a bucket at the end of the driveway. The house is abandoned so no worry about crossing the driveway with the line. Thanks!