Galvanized

[spud]

I am hoping someone can help me understand. I was told today by a dealer that as of Jan 1st there is to be no Galvanized used for sugaring in the state of Vermont. Now i thought only syrup drums and rigs could not be galvanized. The organic people told me a month ago the Galvanized sap tanks can be used for another year or two. Does this mean all people using galvanized sap buckets can no longer use them in Vermont? Hey Vermont good luck trying to enforce this law. I have a new set up and have all stainless but i don't see all Vermonters throwing there galvanized tanks and buckets out and starting over. Will this law apply to all sugar makers in Vermont or only the people selling to the association? What about the guy or gal with 150 taps in their backyard selling at the local flee market? Will they have to make the change also. This could wipe some right out of the business. I was told the price on stainless tanks just went up also. The tank i bought 2 months ago now sells for $700.00 more. I can understand why the state would want people to use stainless. I do feel for the people that may not be able to afford to change their system over. Does this mean that Vermont sugarmaker's will get .50 cents more a pound for making the switch ( I think not ).

Spud

[wiam]

My understanding was syrup could not be stored in galvanized as of 1-1-2012. I do not believe there is anything about sap. Dealers sometimes exaggerate to sell more shiny.

[Bucket Head]

The galv. barrels are being outlawed. I did'nt hear about anything else. The sap is'nt in the buckets or gathering tanks a long time, but the syrup is- and it's put there hot.

You won't see Vermont do away with buckets. Think of their state quarter, think of all those pictures in Vermont Magazine each year at sap season, think of all the producers there who still use them- who add to their 'state leading syrup production totals'. They have too much invested in promoting that image of buckets on the trees.

Steve

[spud]

Hey Bucket head,

I was thinking the same thing as you just said while writing my last post. I could not believe Vermont would even consider. I do understand the barrels being outlawed and maybe the sap tanks if your organic buts thats it. I also agree with wiam on his thoughts towards dealers. Thanks guy's

Spud

[Squaredeal]

All galvanized is outlawed for organic certification -this includes sap tanks, buckets and drums.

[DrTimPerkins]

I can understand why the state would want people to use stainless.

The change in the Vermont Maple Law was made at the request of the Vermont Maple Industry. Right now, I believe (could be wrong) that it pertains to syrup storage, and allows syrup to be stored in "food grade" containers, including stainless, plastic, and one-way barrels that are in good condition.

[SevenCreeksSap]

So I may show my "newbyness" in asking this but is galvanized okay to use for sap holding tank, and is there a "food grade" galvanized type of tank, or is it all the same? I was looking at a new stock tank and thinking it may be usable. New so the cows never drank from it, has a drain opening so a valve could be attached,and I can make a lid. Its about a 250 gallon tank.
Okay to use or not? I'm not registered as organic or anything else.

[Bucket Head]

No, there is no such thing as food grade galvanized. I can't tell you to not use the new stock tank- there are thousands of them in use today- but seeing you hav'nt purchased it yet, maybe you could find something that would'nt have a question mark next to it. Like some food grade plastic barrels or an IBC tote (cage tank) that had a food type product in it. My gathering cage tank originally had molasses in it and the barrels had soda syrup or juice concentrate. Maybe you could score a stainless bulk dairy tank nearby? Any defunct dairy farms near you that might still have the tank in the barn?

I look at it like this; your making a food product so you don't want any doubts as to the containers the sap or syrup sets in. Also, are you going to have visitors, other than friends and family? The general public will see your operation? Are you going to, or hope to, sell syrup to these people? You want your first impression to these people to be that of a clean, professional and properly equipped syrup producer. Cow watering troughs don't exactly fit that bill. Yes, you see those also in the magazines, but a clean plastic tank or a shiney stainless one is far more impressive. And impressed people gladly open their wallets to buy impressive products- like syrup!

Steve

[DrTimPerkins]

I was looking at a new stock tank and thinking it may be usable.

A "stock" tank is for watering "stock", not for holding sap.

[SevenCreeksSap]

got it - gotta quit thinking cheap and think proffessional clean food product.

[English River Maple]

We look at it this way; if you're planning maple production for the long haul, it may be wise to start moving in the direction of purchasing/converting all sap/syrup handling and storage equipment to food grade. I would be very surprised that if some point in the future, this will be mandated. In our operation, we are planning around it. Good luck.

[Daren]

I have a galvie stock tank for my permeate water. Problem?

[wiam]

I figure why wait for a mandate when we know it is the right thing to do. If sugarmakers head in the right direction voluntarily it could affect regulations.

[buckeye gold]

I agree, if your not vested yet then buy food grade. If the industry displays "best practices" then regulators are less likely to promulgate new rules. I know what I'm talking about here, as I spent many years as a state Licensing inspector for another branch of Government (DNR). If we felt the industry was moving in the right direction with a "best practices approach" we would talk with associations on policy and not put them or ourselves through the legal administrative processes. In that note it was easier to have critical conversations with non-complying Licensees when you had association support. I have told produces, "Clean up or fix and I'll come back and approve your License" before denying a license. If they did not cooperate I would look real hard for License denial violations, and I could find something at any operation. Cooperation was a big asset in getting your License. Now don't get me wrong, I'd never let serious criteria pass, but you all know some things are kind of borderline and those can be pass or fail. I always tried to be on the producers side and try to help find solutions, especially when it appeared they were doing their best in other areas of their operation. Sometimes things are not against the law, but they aren't the best approach either. If someone had a reasonable application or adaptation that I saw as basically a no harm done foul I'd make a comment and move on.

[maple flats]

I have a galvie stock tank for my permeate water. Problem?
Not a good idea. Permeate is trying to absorb anything it can. GALVINIZE HAS LEAD. Find another option. Lets police ourselves before the politicians do.

[Oregon sugar bush]

Are galvanized buckets safe for collecting sap?

[Bucket Head]

Yes they are, providing you empty them regularly. Allowing sap to sit in them for days is a problem. Its during that time they have the oportunity to absorb lead. Normally the sap does'nt spend enough time in the bucket for it to absorb very much. Likewise with gathering tanks. The other thing in the buckets favor (and gathering tanks) is the sap thats in it is cold. Hot galvanized anything is when the lead problem becomes a serious threat. That is why there are no galvanized pans made anymore and existing pans are not reccomended for use. Likewise on the old galv. filter cone tanks. The hot syrup just sets there, which is no good. Same reasoning behind Vermont banning galv. barrels, and I'm sure the rest of the maple world will soon follow.

And Buckeye's post, along with everyones advice on policing ourselves, should be taken very seriously! "Best Practices" is what everyone should be mentally asking themselves when their wondering if something in their operation is questionable or not. If you have to 'wonder' about somethings safety, chances are it should go down the road and you get something that has no doubt to its safety.

Steve

[Bucket Head]

One other thing. I can tell you all about a story that illustrates the headaches that will be associated with legislation and mandates, if it comes to it, because we did'nt police ourselves well enough.

New York state government has really put the screws to apple cider making here. When it comes to practices that keep bacteria down in cider, every other state chose educating their producers instead of legislating them. New York did the opposit. Pasteurizing equipment- very, very expensive equipment- is now mandatory here. I got a super deal on two of my bulk tanks because of this. How? Because it forced an orchard owner to abandon his plans for a cider mill once he got the news on what was required. After he picked his jaw up off the ground and composed himself, he threw his arms up in disgust and defeat, and sold everything he had collected for cider making. He was extremely disappointed, and for the whole ride home with the tanks I could'nt help but think, "what if they do that to syrup?".

If we don't do a good job with the "best practices" way of doing business, a lot of us will be put out of business by the rules, licenses and fees, inspections and fees, mandates, etc., etc. that will be imposed. Its a horrible thought, but it could become a reality. I hope I'm never forced into the position, and sadness that orchard owner was in.

Steve

[English River Maple]

One other thing. I can tell you all about a story that illustrates the headaches that will be associated with legislation and mandates, if it comes to it, because we did'nt police ourselves well enough.

New York state government has really put the screws to apple cider making here. When it comes to practices that keep bacteria down in cider, every other state chose educating their producers instead of legislating them. New York did the opposit. Pasteurizing equipment- very, very expensive equipment- is now mandatory here. I got a super deal on two of my bulk tanks because of this. How? Because it forced an orchard owner to abandon his plans for a cider mill once he got the news on what was required. After he picked his jaw up off the ground and composed himself, he threw his arms up in disgust and defeat, and sold everything he had collected for cider making. He was extremely disappointed, and for the whole ride home with the tanks I could'nt help but think, "what if they do that to syrup?".

If we don't do a good job with the "best practices" way of doing business, a lot of us will be put out of business by the rules, licenses and fees, inspections and fees, mandates, etc., etc. that will be imposed. Its a horrible thought, but it could become a reality. I hope I'm never forced into the position, and sadness that orchard owner was in.

Steve

Steve, I don't think it could be "realized" or better stated, I agree with you on both of your last posts. The maple industry is only growing, so, we know it's coming, the question is when. Like you say, use of "best practice" now will minimize the impact of turning a maple operation into use of foodgrade equipment, sap to syrup when more constraints arise. I mean, people are putting sap in trash cans (clean I would only hope) and non-food grade stock tanks (stock=animals/cattle), I am glad I can give my daughter maple syrup that I assisted in making from start to finish. Well said Steve.

[Bucket Head]

Thanks English River. We have to thank Buckeye for the "best practice" terminology, and all of us who are practicing it have to stress it to the producers we know or see that have any questionable equipment in use. Over the years I've spent a lot of money, that I would have liked to have left in my pocket, for stainless fittings, bulk tanks, food grade plastic items, etc. But I spent it knowing I'm making a food product, a product that my family and I consume and sell to others that are going to consume it also. I'll never understand why some folks think, "that'll be good enough" when it comes to less than ideal food processing equipment.

Steve