bacteria and spiles.

[mountainvan]

I've been reading a lot about the new leader 5/16-5/16 adaptor and bacteria getting into spiles, even stainless, and the spiles being worthless after a year. Not quite sure I'm buying what their selling. I do agree that aseptic tapping increases sap yield, but I think sterilization of the spiles in saphouse or the woods is as good as a new spile every year. If bacteria got into the plastic, or especially stainless steel, how is it that hospitals, restaraunts, even grandma with the thanksgiving turkey don't throw out things that had bacteria on them instead of sterilizing and reusing them? Think of the plastic cutting board you might use to cut up a chicken, or the knife used to gut the nice buck you shot and did'nt clean for awhile. Samonella is a nasty bacteria, but I think most people clean then reuse the thing. As for maple stuff... If bacteria, yeast, mold get into stainless steel and plastic, how is it that drums are reused year after year? I know bacteria can not live in maple syrup at 66% sugar, but some sugar yeast can. heard of fat jugs? I've used the same tubing/spiles in some of my sugar bushes for ten years and get the same amount out every year, except last year that I did'nt clean my spiles. I got a little time on my hands so I thought I'd put my one cent in. Last thought, the plastic for these throwaway spiles is made from oil which is not a renewable resource. So those of you who bought them I would ask to sterilize them next year and use them again instead of tossing them out. Sorry if I rambled and preached.

[markcasper]

you make a good point and the leader 5/16 inch adaptors are much sturdier than i thought. I have said before and will say again. I have re-used my 7/16" to 5/16" adaptors for 4 or 5 years now and yesterday i through them in the wash machine, hot water, bleach, and some white sheets. They are boiling on the stove in a 3 gallon pot as i write this for tapping today.

I'm not real sure and have different thoughts on what these equipment people are saying. But being able to bring them in from the woods, clean them up, boil them is much better than not doing anything and has given me proven results, just look at some of my former posts on this subject. Mark

[markcasper]

Thats a good point on the oil too!!! How come nobody on here has ever mentioned anything about what to do with used tubing thats junk? Its a shame that it cannot be recycled and if it can, where??

[Fred Henderson]

Mountainvan, I agree with you toatally. I do not think that enough research has been done on the subject of bacteria as to where is come from and so fourth.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Rob Harvey]

If you disenfect taps with a chemical (bleach or alcohol for instance) you are only killing bacteria on the surface. If you heat them (boiling) long enough so that that plastic is heated to a temp. high enough to kill bacteria all the way through, then i would think that would do it. That is why things in a hospitol are autoclaved not simply chemically disinfected.

[mapleman3]

Anything is better than nothing at all!

[powerdub]

Well said Jim!!! Lets face it, all we (I) want to do is extend the season a couple of weeks. If dunking the spouts in alcohol or whatever achieves that then who gives a ---- how sterile the spouts are. Bacteria is everywhere. We are exposed every day to bacteria. The second instruments come out of the autoclave they are subjected to airborn bacteria. I mean, come on, even the new spouts have crap growing on them right out of the factory. Lets not take this to the extreme. The proof is in the tap hole. I know what the hole looked like before I cleaned them with alcohol and I now what they look like after. Did I sterilize the spout? Beats me, but I gained two, maybe three weeks on the season and it ran just as strong after a five day warmup as it did before. Sorry for the rant.

[Parker]

I am very interested to see how long all the taps we put out on Feb. 22 run,,we used the leader spout extensions on them,,

[mountainvan]

an interesting thought. I dipped all my spiles, new and old, in alcohol this year. I would be very interested in sapflow stopping/really slowing down, between what I did and what parker did. I'll try and keep decent records for such things and we can compare in april or may.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mountainvan]

I still have some trees to tap with buckets. I'll use the alcohol on some and not on others. By the way these are three 5/16 taps going into a 5 gallon bucket on the ground. I've tapped these tress for 15 years, so I know them as good as my wife. let you know how it goes.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[brookledge]

I have said it before and I'll say it again.
New taps will outlast old ones even if they have been sprayed with bleach or hydrogen peroxide. I didin't beleive it till I saw it my self when I was switching over to the health spouts I did it over two years and both years the new spouts were going strong when the old ones slowed down. I'm not saying that spraying the taps doesn't help because Ithink it does.
It would be nice for Proctor or some other research group to do a new test using new taps old taps sprayed with different sanitizers and using leaders new disposable insert. The only problem is for them to give a conclusive result it might take a few years.
I agree with most that I don't feel like contributing to our wastefullness by using the insert and then throughing it away unless it is proven to be very benificial. They are suppose to be biodegadeable but how long will it take to decompose? I don't know.
The industry usually is a good test for the manufactuers as to how good a new product is. Case in point few years ago micro spouts came out. 2004 Bascoms catolog listed them as new for .80 each now 2006 listed as dicontinued item for .60 each and next year maybe will be a free give away.
So obviously I believe that we the producers will decide if the new sanitary adapter by leader will be worth it. I have not tried them yet and will wait for now.
Keith

[maplehound]

I think too that new is always better but not so economical. I tried using the adapters from 7/16- 5/16 and after pulling my taps the one year it rained very hard and I lost most all of them down the stream. The flood washed them at least a mile away, or at least that is were I found my pump and box I held it all in.
At the last maple show I was at in Vemont some of the producers were saying we should be throwing away all our 5/16 branch line every year and putting up new. It too containes bacteria and will eventually move to the spile. If that is so then I don't see how an adapter will help since the half that stays in the woods is still not sterilized and will infect the cleaned half.
I now just use the regular 5/16 spile in my whole woods and dip them in peroxied when we tap. It isn't as good as new but should be better than nothing.
Ron

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[markcasper]

In regarrds to whoever wrote about changing all of the branch lines. Isn't this the reason we use tubing? To save labor? I highly doubt that it would be economical to replace all the 5/16" tubing, as long as your doing that, might as well replace the tees, connectors, spouts and almost forgot, the mainline too. Along with the wire because that could collect bacteria from the air.

One has to use their conogan when dealing with this. It may be better to just find a new hobby and get a logger in and deal with it all that way.

As far as research reguarding the adaptors. It would make sense to minimize the bacteria by replacing the lateral lines. It would cost more than its worth I believe and whats the purpose of leaving tubing up year around??

As far as doing a study on one hilside versus another. Each syrup maker should know their woodlot and if your like me, I have certain bunches of trees that get tapped first every year and others later on. I know which ones run best the first. On the hillside where the health spouts are, it is a colder side, more west than south. They never start in running as soon as the opposite side. With that being said, they have been the first to slow down except the year the tubing and spouts were new. That year they yielded copious amounts right on into the middle of April and they were tapped March 3rd of 2000. I am using the adaptors on all of these this year. If into April these trees are continuing to run and run fair to good, I'd have to say the adaptors are doing their job intended. Only time will tell, but am more than confident that the extra sap that I should be getting will be more than enough to pay the extra $$$. Mark

[maplehound]

Mark,
I was the one who wrote about replacing the lateral lines. I to think it is obserd to do so but that is what some in Vermont were saying to do when I was there a couple years ago. Others said it would only be necesary to replace the drop and still others were saying that just the spile should be replaced. Then they all would go on to say that you should be putting up more main line in your woods since it is easier to get clean than the 5/16 branch line is. Maybe it is all a ploy to sell more tubing< I don't know but I still think that if you don't change the whole spile the part that stays in the woods would cotaminate the part that was just put out. I work as a meat cutter and we can't even set a box of meat that is vaccuume sealed on the floor, due to contamination problems :? You would think if that meat is sealed then what would it matter, Also you cna't cut chicken onn one end of a block and beef on the other no matter how far away they are since bacteria will travel across the table. If this is true then wouldn't it also travel on a spile :?
I don't know all the answer but I do have many questions I want answered before I spend more money changing all my spiles agian. I hope it does work out for those who do though and if it does then I might fall in with you.
Ron

[markcasper]

I too have wondered about the bacteria transferring from the one in the woods to the new ones you are putting in the taphole. Its obviosly a good stratedgy if you can get whatever you are putting in the holes sanitized. And I mean more than just spraying bleach, alchol, or peroxide. It takes me extra time, but I washed my spile reducers with bleach and hot water in the wash machine. Took them out and had my wife go through each one with a brush, boiled them for at least an 1 1/2 hours on the stove and finally transferred them to a clean pail with which they are laying in alcohol. I carry this in the woods then.

Theres really only so much you can do. Does it help? I believe it helps, but if we get a cool season and not alot of sun, then probably not as much.

On my tax return I had a 500 dollar + loss for last year. I cannot see how some Vermonters are advocating putting all new brach lines in every year. The people who said this better be able to charge and get $150 / gallon for their syrup. It anin't gonna happen and someone was probably just babbling again. Mark

[markcasper]

Ron, one thought on the spile infestation. The taphole should slope downward at least 10%. With sap coming out, it would seem to me that the bacteria would be slowed up from entering the hole, since the continual pitch and flow of sap would keep pushing the bacteria away from, rather than into the hole. They say sap is sterile coming from the tree. With vacuum helping the flow, sometimes double, it seems to me that the hole would stay open longer than those not on vacuum.

Just a thought I had. Mark

[maplehound]

Mark,
I thought about that to but what about when it gets to warm to run? Where I live we oftern get 2 or 3 days in the 70's during the season. When that happens the sap won't run and the bacteria multiplies fast. So we ussually take time then to wash our main lines but not ussually the branch and spiles.
ron

[markcasper]

Ron, You have a good point and I don't know the answer. One has to weigh how much you do with your already tapped tubing, versus putting out some additional bags in my case and letting the tubing go, at least on my southern slope runs.

I did take about half of my end of mainline fittings off for this year and put in a straight connectors instead, then put a valve on the end of that. This way, I'll be able to simply walk to the end of the mainline and let the vacuum pick water up out of the pail, so that the entire mainline will get flushed and not just the tiny stream in the bottom. I also put a valve on a dry line that i put in and will shut that off when doing this.

The bacteria thing is a bit baffling and i do not profess to know it all, as some on here seem to do. Sometimes things happen and they have no explanation. All I know is that I am doing more than average in terms of cleanliness, so it should produce some more. Mark

[maplehound]

Mark,
Good point about doing all you can do. Today I boiled and I am still making light amber syrup. :D I have never made more than 5 gallons of light and this year I have already made 50 gallon. So I must be doing somthing right. Last year was our first year of vaccuume cleaning the main lines at the end of the year. Maybe that is what helped.
You say you use a dry line system. How does that do for you? How many taps on it? I have 600 taps out this year and hope to up it to 800 next year. I don't have any 1' line with more than 300 taps running through it. Do you think it would help me to run a dry line? I do have two main lines that I branch off with other mains, but they have 5/16 branch lines coming off them as well and I don't know if I can do that and still run a dry line along with it and get any better results.
Ron

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Ron,

Yeah, you may be doing something right but most of it in up to God and nature. Most years, most of the syrup I make is light or med, but with the high temps each week down here for all 4 weeks, it is not going to be the case this year. So far, about 2/3 has been light and med but I am sure the rest will be dark. :?

[maplehound]

yea today we got to above 40 but it droped down very early to below freezing. Tomorrow they are calling for warm temps and then not freezing again for at least a week. :( I just hope it only drops our grade and not end our season. If it ends it then most won't get a very good year this year around here. I would like it if I could get to making medium or a light dark syrup. That is what most people like to buy off me.
Ron

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Ron,

One week won't end the season this early. Same down here but this is my 4th week and probably the end for me. No freezing after tonight for next 8 days. :?

[maplehound]

We are looking at days in the upper 60's. That won't help our season much I'm sure.
Ron

[mountainvan]

hey ron, off the subject of sugaring, but you ever get over to the aep recreation land, used to be just ohio power. I spent lots of time there when I lived in ohio, born in xenia, ohio lived there for 20 years. good luck from a fellow buckeye turned new yorker, against his will!!

[brookledge]

Ron,
You asked about a dry line system. I'm assuming that you have vacuum now. So here is my sugestion.
If you are getting good vacuum transfer now then adding a dry line will not do any more except cost you money. The best thing to do is go through your bush and test the vacuum at the trees while the sap is running good. All you need is a gauge with a piece of tubing on the end and pull a tap to see what you have for a reading. As long as you have only a 1" or 2" drop you are doing fine and there is no need to do any more. When you have a bigger loss then you need to either upsize the mainline or add a dry line to help transfer the vacuum better.
Keith

[maplehound]

Kieth,
Thanks for the advise I haven't checked the vaccumme at the spile this year and I should. I do have what I need to do it just haven't had the time yet. I am runing a 1 1/2 hp vacuumme pump that I bought years ago and I try to pull about 16 or 17 inches at the pump, then the relief valve opens so I don't over stress the pump and burn it up. In my old woods I was getting about 15 inches at the pump and 11 0r 12 at the tap. I thought that was a good transfer but alot lower than most suggest. Still not to bad for a $10 pump :D (I love auctions)
ron

[markcasper]

Ron, This year is the first that I have delt with a dry line. All of my wet lines are 3/4" and the dry line is 1 inch. So far, its doing worse for me than the way I had it before. I know there is some leak up yander b/c I should be getting better transfer now than ever. Some of them will be stupid leaks, know what I mean.? The thing is.....I still have a lot of tapping to do and the major leak checking is gonna have to wait a few days. So far it hasn't been freezing at night here and thats when vacuum is gonna help the most. The book has only opened on this dry line thing. I plan on adding more when we get a freeze up and that looks like next week here. So far, the only trees running good are the ones on the southern exposure. When i get towards the tops of the hills and ridges, they are all completely dry, even with the warm temps as of late. Mark

[maplehound]

Mark,
I hope your season goes as well as ours has been. But with less break downs than we have had. Yeasterday the temp got up to 40 deg. Even so my pump line that I use to pump out my 300 gallon vaccuume tank, was froze up and my father couldn't get it to flow. So when I got home at 2pm to boil I first had to help him to get the sap line freed up. Mean while the tank was ready to overflow and was backing up into my lines. We then let the generator/ and vaccuume run all night and In the morning the hauling wagon was clear full and so was the tank in the woods. After emptying the wagon he found the generator wouldn't run. :( He took it to a mechanic and they found the kill wire was grounding out somewhere so the disconted the wire. So today the vaccuume didn't get turned on till 2 pm again. Even so, My tanks are all full and it is still flowing in. Today we boiled off 400 gallon and I still have 1000 gallon waitng on me plus what ever is in the woods.
Boy am I tired
Ron

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Ron,

That's a good problem, too much sap, better than not enough. :D :D :D

[maplehound]

If it keeps coming I may have to sell the sap to someone who has an RO. Maybe I can get one in the next couple years. Right now we are glad that I didn't put on the other 200 taps I could have add this year.
Ron