Tapping problems - health spouts...

[royalmaple]

Hello-

I have been using the two part health spouts (maple pro design-I believe) they have the twisting locking method. First, I don't care for them, maybe it is just me but they can be a pain to have at the exact angel to get them to stay in the "locked" position. I was shown some push in friction locking ones, from leader I think, that appear to be much more friendly to use.

Anyway, I am using the gold 5/16 bit, drilling slightly upward, holding cordless drill as steady as possible. I am not twisting and reaming the hole(as far as I can tell). Using a B&D Firestorm drill. drilling about a 2 inch hole, then tapping with tap end, I get the tap in tight with hammer. I am tapping it in, not like pounding a nail, but solid. I would say the tap is about 1 1/2 inches into the tree.

1. I notice on some of my sunny trees(barely weeping few drops a day) the tree is wet around the tap hole site. I don't see cracked bark, and the tap is tight. Thoughts?

2. I tried today on a smaller tree that was barely giving up sap, and after drilling the hole was wet, inserted tap and during the process the sap was coming out at the bottom of the hole, then even after the tap was in, occasionally I would see sap running down the tree.

Maybe I am making too much of this but gets me nervous thinking I have about 200 set out like this now, 99% are bone dry-no sap running yet. But when they start am I going to be looking at a rain forest?

I also notice that when I have used the 7/16 spouts, they didn't leak and also seem to get tight very quickly. So there was not too much of the spout in the tree. Wouldn't this be wiser also leaving a larger area for the sap to come out of the tree fibers and collect?

I would appreciate any help before I go and redrill them all and buy 7/16 taps, trying to save my work.

[maplehound]

If your tapping into a tree that is frozen then your spout probably isn't seating very well. I too tapped when it was just barely above freezing and had trouble getting my taps seated. I waited though to tap them in till it was a running good. All or most of my taps were running down the tree, also many of them had vaccuume leaks. When the sap was running and with the vaccuume on I went around and with a small tap hammer I seated them into the tree. I still have some leaking but ussually that is from miss drilling the tree.
Don't give up on the health spiles jsut yet. They will pay off in the long run. With longer runs in the season and healthier trees.
Ron

[sweetwoodmaple]

You guys may have helped me with my vacuum problem. I have 300+ health spiles and my 5 cfm pump can't seem to keep up.

I have some of the same problems, but I tapped when it was 40 degrees and sunny. I don't hear any leaks, but who knows. I seat my spiles with about 4 mild hits from a 16oz hammer.

I'll know more after things thaw again and I get a few more leaks fixed.

[royalmaple]

Ron-

Thanks, maybe that is what I will have to do is wait and see.

http://www.diecastwarehouse.com/tap.jpg
http://www.diecastwarehouse.com/tap1.jpg

I would say on average I am NOT pounding the taps in to the ring line on the taps, maybe just before it and it feels like going anymore would be too much. But any less would not even be seated. I would say they are going in about 1 inch on average. it is about 1 1/4 inches to the ring line on the tap.

Is that about what you are doing?

[royalmaple]

sweetwood-

same here, I would say about 4 hits, I usually tap them in until I hear a light squeek on the last hit, then I stop. Hit would be an overstatement, but you know what I mean.

Not like driving 16 penny nails into Hemlock Timbers.

Nothing is running here yet so all trees have been tapped "cold"

[markcasper]

I believe that maplepro will end up abandoning those interlocking devices. I was not impressed of hearing of them and lo and behold i recieved the maple digest and noticed leaders advertisement. I ordered them and recieved them this week. I asked randy from leader about theire use (will they push apart, leak sap, vacuum, etc. He said they had been tested extensively and well recieved by those that have used them and are 3-4 cents cheaper than maple pro, plus you don't have to buy the second part, just fit them onto your existing health spout.

Most years mine always have some of a sap streak the first week or so, get less every day though, don't know why and can't explain it. I was baffled last year on why i couldn't fix my vacuum leaks. I finally discovered about 1 1/2 weeks after tapping that virtually every spile needed to be tapped in a bit harder, so that i did and took care of the leaks. If you had a sharp bit and you believe you tapped them in right, i wouldn't worry about it, but everyone is differt. Mark

[sweetwoodmaple]

I think they seal up some from bacteria since the outside is exposed to air.

Did you tap frozen and then had to reseat?

The 7/16 spiles do seem to seat better. When you are tapping, the 5/16 spiles are easy to get started with your hand since the taper is less. But, with the 7/16 spiles, I typically have to hold with one hand and pound with the other. The definately don't go in the hole as far and have a greater taper, which I believe helps seal up the bark. I'm curious if this leads to less vacuum leaks as well.

On the down side, I tend to split the bark easier with the 7/16.

[markcasper]

sweetwood, Don't know if you were talking to me. ? Maybe wasn't as bad as i made it sound, but there were some streaks, many only an ich or two below the spile. No, they were not tapped into frozen wood. I don't like to do that and usually find something else to do until it warms up. Have tapped in the upper 20"s before, but the tree always is warmer than that with sun on them. Mark

[Russell Lampron]

Royalmaple, a couple of things that could be contributing to your problem.

The first thing may be that there is too much chuck wobble with your B&D drill. The chuck wobble causes a slightly oval hole that won't seal around the spout. Most of the large producers are using Dewalt drills because of this.

Second you may want to use a 19/64" bit which is 1/64" smaller than the 5/16" spout for a better seal.

Russ

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

post edited

[royalmaple]

Helllo-

I purchased a new 19/64 tapper and drilled some of them yesterday. I got in about 200+ now. I just went out and saw some of the main lines dripping a little so that was exciting. But when I looked down some latteral lines it seems that almost every tree is wet, just just a drop or two. I have some trees that are soaked. I have no idea what the ^(&) I am doing wrong. Will this let up as the air gets to the outside of the tap hole?

Really gets me nervous seeing this, maybe it is just a time thing and they will stop but some trees have been wet on any sunny day since I put them in two weeks ago, now those are the 5/16 holes.

HELP!!

[sweetwoodmaple]

On the sap streaking issue, I used a 5/16 bit on all of mine. The 19/64 bit will make a little difference, but since my golden bit broke on the 3rd hole, I had to go with what I had at the time.

Kevin - Yes, have been good with looking for flying sap. Also, I rewarded my son with a few girl scout cookies for finding leaks. He as a pretty good ear for 6 years old.

I also located some small 5/16 band clamps for some of the problem connections.

As has been stated in the past, each spile that is open completely leads to about 2" of vacuum loss. And, yes, every few leaks add up.

Have too many other things to do, so 13" will have to do for this year. :wink:

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Take a hammer and snug the saps in good as long as you didn't drive them too far and split the bark.

Make sure you are holding the drill very still or you will get a rounded hole. :?

[royalmaple]

Brandon Thanks, I would say that I am putting the taps in about 1/2 way to the pronounced line in the taps that you can see above, say 1 inch in. I have looked and looked and I don't see anything split on the trees.

I have also tried to hold the drill very steady, I just don't understand it.

Talk about frustrating, I was about ready to rip all the taps out and wait for fishing season or something else. I guess I could start scrap booking with the wife, but rather saw my hands off with a hand saw.

I just know how much work I have done (alone) and to walk out and see the trees looking back at me and laughing and sap running down the tree, it was about all I could take today. Oh well, maybe just one of those days but really stinks.

I could tap them in more, and see.

What also worries me is many of the trees are still dry, no sap, so in my mind I am thinking what is this mess gonna look like when the flood gates open up?

I also took one out today on the side of the driveway that I see daily and it has always leaked since I put it in a week or so ago, retapped with 7/16 and put in a 7/16 tap and still leaking around that. I probably hit it in about 4 times with a rubber mallet lightly.

I give up.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Matt,

Rubber mallet won't do as good as a claw hammer. After you get the feel of it, you can tell when the spouts are snug and set. Sounds like to me you don't have them in the tree far enough. Don't be afraid to hit them some, just don't drive them thru the tree. Try a few and you should be able to get the feel of it. :D

[mountainvan]

matt, I go by the sound the hammer makes on the spile, kind of like looking for stud in a wall. It's kinda tap, tap thunk. Or it could be the bit you're using this year. I have'nt tried the canadian tapping bit, but a 5/16 irwin auger bit makes nice round holes that don't leak after the thunk. I've also used brad point bits which worked well. hope this helps. by the way I use a 12oz claw hammer. I've expanded the claw with a file so it fits under the 5/16 spile. works great to put them in and take them out.

[royalmaple]

Thanks guys, perhaps I just need to take my skirt off and give them a good wack. I just read all the time about splitting the bark and so on, and I guess I am trying too hard not to do anything wrong and perhaps in the process not getting them in and seated enough. It would make sense.

Long hot shower and couple of deep breaths and some good advice lets shoot for a better outcome tomorrow. I'll try the hammer trick. How far into the tree would you say you guys have your 5/16 taps?

Hopefully this will do the trick and I can move forward from this little headache.