How much does insulation impove efficiency?

[Pibster]

I have been trying to find reasonably priced and readily available fireproof insulation for my new homemade arch. I'd rather not spend a lot for a hobby arch. If I skip the insulation and just go with fire brick, will my gallons per hour rate suffer greatly? My evaporator pan is 24x36 and I am aiming for 6-8 gallons per hour. I'm not concerned about being too hot in my new sugar shack after freezing outside last year.

[Stamford sugarmaker]

Although I cannot provide you with any technical data, it seems to me insulation is well worth the money. I used arch board from Bascom's on my new 2 X 4 this year and was very happy with a couple of test boils I did recently. It cost about $9 for a 1' X 3' x 1" piece and I used about 8 pieces.

My old homemade 2 X 4 had no insulation, firebrick only, and was difficult if not impossible to stand next to. Obviously a lot of heat wasn't directed to the pan. The new rig gets a little warm which tells me it's a lot more efficient.

Arch board is relatively inexpensive compared to ceramic board or ceramic blankets. I think you will spend a lot less time in the sugarhouse and it will be a wise investment.

Peter

[maple flats]

No numbers, but any insulation is money well spent. Why burn more fuel to boil the same sap and why would you want to boil longer than you need to? Boiling IS addictive, but it still gets old after a very long boiling session.

[Pibster]

I hope to find a source for the arch board where the shipping charges are less than the material being shipped. I have found some Roxul in our area. It may be too bulky for my arch sides but I can easily fit it in my ramp area.

[red maples]

Just an FYI for insulation will help I am sure but What better is the safety issue. the sides will still get hot even with insulation. even with a 2x4 I am sure you can get the sides hot enough to almost glow with out it.

[adk1]

Where do you put the arch board? Does that go against the inside of the firebox then add the firebrick against that?

[Jec]

Yeah it goes behind the bricks. If you use arch board you can get away with half bricks to save more money. I also wanted to keep my firebox as big as I can.

[Indiana-Jones]

I have/had the same problem. There is not a maple supply house near me here in Indiana. Shipping arch board cost 3 times the cost of the product. So I found this place and ordered a roll of 1 and a half inch blanket. It cost just less than $100.00 total. I have received the it and plan to install soon.

http://www.ceramicfiberonline.com/ShowCatelog.php?cid=1

[C.Wilcox]

Your gallons per hour will likely remain exactly the same because the pan is so small compared to the size of the firebox. If you were running a 2X6 or larger you'd almost certainly see a loss of productivity, but for a 2X3, probably not so much. If you decide to go without the insulation be prepared for it to get HOT! To prevent bad burns you might want to stack up some spare bricks, pavers, cinder blocks, etc. on the sides of the arch to prevent yourself from contacting it.

[backyard sugaring]

I found my ceramic blanket at an art supply company,same stuff much cheaper price. Insulation is well worth the price. Good luck. Lee

[b116757]

just use firebrick

[1badsapper]

I hope some one answers this, I'm in the same boat.

[jmayerl]

just use firebrick

Fire brick will give you about 0 insulation factor. Firebrick is used to protect your insulatio(arch board or blanket).
I rebuilt the rear half of my 2x6 last year and used 1" 1900 degree blanket insulation and you could put your hand against it and barly feel any warmth. The front fire box area I did not rebuild do to time constraints. It only had firebrick there. It also glowed like a japanise nuclear reactor!

[adamsmithnny]

just finnished my 2x6 with 1900 deg. board from Bascoms. cost me $120 to do entire thing. Easy to work with, a dream to cut. I made cardboard templates first, mainly due to board from waiting. Order took only 2 days to arrive. Started at 8 am and finished around 11 am!

[adk1]

this is what I wanted to hear. I bought the 2" 2300 degree insulation from the same place. I plan on adding it thoughout the best I can. I was hopeing to hear that you could tell a difference by how hot the sides of the arch got. I would also hope that it will extend the number of minutes you need to reload meaning get more BTU's out of the wood. That should be the case anyways.

[lakeview maple]

I did my 2x6 this year with 2300 degree blanket from the refractory depot,there on line and they will ship small orders if you email or call and ask. You will be hard pressed to find a cheaper supplier,I did the rear flue area with just blanket, and the front and ramp firebox area with blanket, and covered it with splits and refractory cement on the seams.I saw a add here in the classifieds from the same company .Good luck and God Bless ,Al

[adk1]

yeah, I will try to add the blanket in every place I can. Picking up some full thickness prick and 1/2 thickness brick on Friday. Gonna try to get the job done this weekend for sure.

[TimJ]

We also added blanket insulation to an oil tank 2x5 evaporator this summer. We'll report the efficiency increase, however we also are improving in other ways so we're not sure how much can be attributed to what:

- remove pan that sat on top of our back flat pan that was a "preheater" - this ended up doing nothing since the condensation on the bottom of that pan went right back into the flue pan below it.

- adding a 2x2 hood with 90" of 1/2" copper preheater (7 sections of 9" parallel flows and manifolds of about 15 inches)

- intake valve connected to preheater and tank to keep flue pan level - previously we were scooping cold sap into a "preheating pan" on the back of the flue pan.

- adding a grate to lift the wood off the floor an inch or two

- We bought a stack gas temp gauge and a fluid temp gauge - the stack gas will go in the pipe and the fluid temp will go on the output side of the preheater before it goes into the flue pan.


We were getting approximately 8 to 9 gph on a two pan set up that is roughly 2x5.

We expect 12 gph with the improvements, and we're hoping for 15gph - but we have no idea what will happen.

[Goggleeye]

Glad I ran into this thread. I just bought a 2.5 x 8 Leader drop flue, used, and we took out all the brick to transport it. It didn't have any blanket or insulation board, but from what I gather, many of you would recommend putting insulation between the brick and the arch, correct? I have 4 kids under 10, and I need to make this a safe as possible. Also, should I put board under the bricks that lay flat in the back of the arch, or would that be unnecessary?

And 1 more question. I have sap now but won't be able to get the board for several days. Is it OK to boil 1 or 2 times with the bricks not mortared into place?

Thanks, Mark

[Bucket Head]

If you can, insulate the entire arch. You want to keep every ounce of heat in the arch evaporating sap, not radiating out and heating the outside of the arch. Lost heat is lost heat. Yes, you could boil with just the bricks. Then take them out when you get the insulation. Just be careful though with just the bricks. The arch sides will be HOT. So hot that you won't be able to stand next to it because it will heat your pants! Been there, done that, did'nt like it. And keep the little ones away from it. Even with insulation theres still plenty of hot areas that tiny hands should'nt be near. Good luck with it and have fun.

Steve

[Goggleeye]

Thanks for the advice, Steve. You've helped me out quite a bit with your suggestions as I've learned this "art" of sugarmaking.

[vernon]

Pibster..Did you find a supplier of insulation? I order 1x12x24 12 pieces 48 sq. ft.from the states. Was $75.00.......Landed here was $250.00.... a bit much I thought.I looked in Canada and could not find any.I could get it from the big maple producers in 5 or 6 weeks.Their must be someone local that stocks it but have not found anywhere yet. Good luck.... Vernon

[Pibster]

I was able to find some at the Refractory Depot but the shipping was more than the product so I haven't placed an order yet. They did tell me that the blanket was about $125 freight, the board was twice as much.

[deckers007]

You should be able to find it on a roll to, i just picked up a peace of blanket 1" x 4' x 7', much niceer to work with than smaller peace's, it came out to about $125 CDN. The roll is 4' wide and the supplier cut to lengh.

[CBOYER]

a place for refractory materials in Canada:

http://www.materiauxrefractairesdirect.com/MRD_Solution.htm

[ClarkFarmMapleSyrup]

I was told not to put a copper tubing preheater in my hood. I could make one easy but i was told not to make one. reason being is that i was told that you are just heating the sap enough for bacteria to grow, and that is bad for sap, so keep your sap cold or really hot, like boiling in the evap, not like 100degrees or less in a preheater. so, is this right, or would a homemade tubing preheater help me with my gph on a half pint?
I was just wondering if the advice i got was right or not so much

[farmall h]

Picking up some full thickness prick on Friday. .

SAY WHAT???:o:lol:

[adk1]

I dont know, that sounds weird if it is just going into the evap anywyas. Alot of folks wrap their stacks with soft copper tubing so it heats the sap inside then drops into their preheater.

[wiam]

I was told not to put a copper tubing preheater in my hood. I could make one easy but i was told not to make one. reason being is that i was told that you are just heating the sap enough for bacteria to grow, and that is bad for sap, so keep your sap cold or really hot, like boiling in the evap, not like 100degrees or less in a preheater. so, is this right, or would a homemade tubing preheater help me with my gph on a half pint?
I was just wondering if the advice i got was right or not so much

I do not know if this is true on a half pint. Factory built preheaters in a tight hood claim to gain 15% evaporation. I believe I get close to this from my homerebuilt one. Sap enters float box between 165-185.

[ClarkFarmMapleSyrup]

I have a preheater on the pan of the halfpint, it comes with one, but the steam should hold alot of heat, so i was wondering what could be done to improve efficiencey

[bowtie]

raising the temp of sap comng into your evaporator is a good thing. i would think that if bacteria is growing in sap between the copper tube pre-heater and the pan you would be boiling way,way to slow maybe even not at all. keeping sap cool pertains only to storage and it is why a lot of producers will not let sap sit more than 2 days under any condition. i would go ahead and pre-heat as much as i could, i will be, the only time you could run into a problem is if you boil sap in the tube it could clog eventually or vapor lock your valve.

[wiam]

raising the temp of sap comng into your evaporator is a good thing. i would think that if bacteria is growing in sap between the copper tube pre-heater and the pan you would be boiling way,way to slow maybe even not at all. keeping sap cool pertains only to storage and it is why a lot of producers will not let sap sit more than 2 days under any condition. i would go ahead and pre-heat as much as i could, i will be, the only time you could run into a problem is if you boil sap in the tube it could clog eventually or vapor lock your valve.

I would go further and say most boil sap in less than 24 hrs.

[Pibster]

Pibster..Did you find a supplier of insulation? I order 1x12x24 12 pieces 48 sq. ft.from the states. Was $75.00.......Landed here was $250.00.... a bit much I thought.I looked in Canada and could not find any.I could get it from the big maple producers in 5 or 6 weeks.Their must be someone local that stocks it but have not found anywhere yet. Good luck.... Vernon

I found another supplier in Toronto. Have a look at their website, the prices look decent.

http://www.pshcanada.com

[vernon]

When ordering from the states you also have to pay duty.I also ordered from Refractory Depot..good service and good price, because I could not find any locally..but shipping and duty is a (pita).