Starting to build after this season or bust

[Elynch77]

So after boiling in a tent for 3 years now I am saying that this will be my last season without a sugar shack. I boil on the back of the hill about a mile from the house but right in the heart of the maples. It is an old site of an exploratory gas well drilled in the 40's or 50's and is a perfect flat spot about 160' by 80' in the side a steep hill covered in hard maples. Yes i know being close to the house is great but I have decided to stay on the hill.

That being said I have been drawing some plans and talking to guys who have been doing this a while. Everyone seems to say build it twice as big as you think you need. I also want a bunk room of some sort so I can just sleep there in relative comfort. I am full time with the New York Army National Guard so I take leave during maple season and will just move up there. So it has to be big. Think half cabin and half sugar shack. After all maple season is really only a couple months a year at best so it might as well be dual purpose.

What I am after is the ideas you may or may not have for a project like this. After pricing lumber for a few projects I am buying a sawmill. Seems crazy but I have to thin the sugar bush of a lot of ash and silver maple that will make great material as well as plenty of pine in other places. So lumber will not be too big a problem and plenty of slabs for the evaporator.

Please go crazy and share your ideas. No idea is too silly so post them all.

I have drawn up quite a few plans over the past three years and am thinking about posting them for people who want plans or ideas. I have a good scanner that will take big paper so I may see how they look on a computer.

Again. Go nuts with your ideas. And if you want instructions for boiling in a tent safely (Carport tent) you will have to look elsewhere. There is no way to make it safe but I have not burned it down yet.

[bigschuss]

I am biased....but I'd go for a timber frame! Build it as big as you want. I went 12x16...but you can really make a frame that suits your needs. Strong. Durable. Will last 200 years. And the satisfaction you get from cutting the joints and putting it up can not be matched.

Plus...if you're buying a lumber mill, you will be able to cut all of the lumber yourself to your exact specifications.

4939

[Elynch77]

That was sort of what i was thinking. Big obsticle number one is getting a cement truck up there. I can handle most of the ground prep but getting a mix truck up there could depend on the driver. When things are dry in august it could be fine but still would takena gooddriver. Then do you build first and then pour the floor? Just have the poles go through the concrete?

[bigschuss]

That was sort of what i was thinking. Big obsticle number one is getting a cement truck up there. I can handle most of the ground prep but getting a mix truck up there could depend on the driver. When things are dry in august it could be fine but still would takena gooddriver. Then do you build first and then pour the floor? Just have the poles go through the concrete?

I built mine on top of a root cellar. I had the site work done and then I hired a few friends to built the foundation out of cement block. I can store my sap down there all week and it doesn't turn or freeze. Mind you...I'm small scale. I'm not handling hundreds of gallons.

If you are going to build on top of a slab, you might have a problem if your site is wet. They can pump it in...but distance will be a factor. Also...pumping cement is expensive! Then again, if your site will be dry in August, you could spend your summer felling trees and cutting all of your joints. Pour the pad in August...and you'll have your building up in a single day with good friends and with no problems.

A dry laid stone foundation would work just as well. Building a smaller shack on piers would work. Sounds like you could dig your holes yourself.

I would highly recommend Jack Sobon and Tedd Benson's books. Both have very well detailed instructions about all aspects of building a small 12x16. Just increas the dimensions for your needs.

Sounds like a great project!

[jasonl6]

Look into a small cement mixer too if you can't get the truck in. You can poor a 6x6 - 8x8 pad at a time in a few hours using sakrete cement. Let it set then poor another. That way you have expansion joins in place already. What type of mill are you looking at? There are two companies that are not far from you that have/make mills that will do 28" diameter logs for around 4K. Me and my father are looking into purchasing one after this years maple harvest!

Jason

[Elynch77]

Jason16,

I was looking at the Norwood Mills since I work in Buffalo and they are located there. From what I have been reading having good service/support is almost the most important thing. Which mills are you looking at?

As far as the concrete goes I am thinking the truck is the only way. I just don't have the extra week it would take to do a floor that way. It will be a matter of timing. If it is dry for a week or two in the summer it will be fine as long as they can do it with a day or two notice if rain is expected. The actual site stays pretty dry but there are some soggy spots in the trail up. Right now I am looking at a 36 x 36 slab which is a lot of concrete. I have a friend who has given me access to his old Army 5 ton dump with winch. (It is a 5 ton but will haul 18 tons go figure) Either way I can drop gravel in a few rough spots on the road/trail up the hill. Gravel is cheap but moving it is not.

So Bigschuss, are you saying you would build on the slab and not pour around the poles of a pole barn type construction. I have seen both ways and am trying to figure out which has the most pros vs. cons. I tend to lean toward the on top method since you can then run the siding down over the side of the concrete keeping moisture out of the wood.

[500592]

Elynch don't forget a cement truck ways 80000 pounds or more

[Elynch77]

Okay 80,000 is a lot but the road up took logging trucks 10 to 15 years back. I am most concerned about loosing traction on one 150 yard stretch that stays pretty wet and is a steady grade uphill. I am cutting out a lot of smaller poplar in that area and chipping it onto the road but who knows what that will amount to. even without that I doubt it would sink very far but with road tires spinning could be a problem. Do you know if they will come out and look and see if they can get in there. I have a neighbor who does concrete work all the time. I need to ask him what he thinks. I just have this terrible picture in my head of a mix truck stuck in the mud.

[whalems]

most cement trucks in our area (northern Michigan) have all wheel drive and can go just about anywhere. I would call the cement company and explain the situation and see what they say. Good luck, Mike

[lakeview maple]

We poured ours with a small mixer and its a 14x20 shack.It took about 3 days but it was well worth it. Al

[jasonl6]

I am looking at the norwood also. The other brand is Hud-son (http://www.hud-son.com/). The reason i am looking at hud-son is because they are made in USA and i am hoping i can just buy the saw head. They run on a 1/4" x 3" angle iron track that i can make myself. I can get 20' pieces delivered right to my door and won't have to worry about bolting stuff together (i would like 40' of track so i can saw out ridge beams). I also want to get it without a motor so i can run a electric start diesel engine. Diesel fuel can store for up to 10 years with proper additives and if the economy keeps going the way it is now i want to be able to use this thing long into a recession. I live about 1.25 hours from you and travel through Belfast often in the summer. If you need help some weekend let me know i will try and make the trip up. I have allot of construction experience and tools.

Jason

[Elynch77]

So i just took a ride up there with the veiwpoint of driving a big truck. Drove them in the army so i do have some idea. Also took the camera and 100' tape. I feel sure a truck would make in the summer dry but i need to trim some trees on the last stretch going into the woods. I will still call and have the neighbor look. I must have a concrete floor. I think at this point i would takenthe floor over a roof. More later from a real computer. I hate touch screens.

[Elynch77]

Okay this day is taking a toll on me. Up at 3:45 and up to Rochester by 6:30 for my son to have his tonsils and annoids taken out. So at least I am home for the rest of the week. Mostly to watch the Boy but I should be able to get in the woods too. I have to re-route some main lines.

Jason16,

I think I like the Norwood a little better. I want to set it up and go so a kit is easier for me. I am hoping to go by their wharehouse and see if they have a demo or something that is together. I will get it on a trailer and drive it home. It would be nice to go out to 40' but I really only need 20' or so. I do have some ash that would go 40' easy clear and straight but I can make do. I like the idea of a small self start diesel and keep a supply of fuel on hand myself. I know where Shinglehouse is but have never been there. Sounds like good wood cutting/tapping country. I am going by Norwood next week and I will let you know what I find out.

SO when I went up there I re-measured and it is a 60x 120 foot level area. I will try to get pictures up but not today. I am going to go draw for a while and hang out with the Little Man and make sure he is on the mend.

[sjdoyon]

Built our sugarhouse on the side of a mountain this summer. Built a road one week and had cement trucks the week after. You can find a cement truck with all wheel drive and with a front load, not an issue with backing in. We had no choice on size and scope due to a small landing but the log cabin sugarhouses and timber frames make real pretty sugarhouses.

FYI, be careful about sleeping quarters. Some states consider sleeping quarters a house and you might run into zoning and permit issues.

4,200+ Taps
3x10 Inferno Arch
7,5 HP Vacuum pump
Lapierre 600gph RO
3 SS 1500 gallon tanks
24x32 Sugarhouse
4944

[Bucket Head]

What about having a restroom in the sugarhouse? Does anyone here have one of them? Did the Codes Dept. have a problem with it? I guess I could see how the sleeping quarters would change things, but a restroom is a different story.

Steve

[bigschuss]

So Bigschuss, are you saying you would build on the slab and not pour around the poles of a pole barn type construction. I have seen both ways and am trying to figure out which has the most pros vs. cons. I tend to lean toward the on top method since you can then run the siding down over the side of the concrete keeping moisture out of the wood.

This brings up a few issues....I think timber frames are stronger and longer lasting than pole barns, so I would go the timber frame route ON TOP of a slab. However...it sounds like your building is going to be quite a bit bigger than 12x16. A slab probably wouldn't be adequate for a large building IN THE NORTH due to the frost heaving. Down south they build homes on slabs.

Because your building is going to be a big one...36x36....I think a pole barn might be your better option. A slab is still going to float up and down inside of your building. That's not a real problem in an outbuilding like a sugar shack UNLESS you intend to build rooms and walls. What happens is then they float up and down with the slab and if they are also attached to the pole frame in any way...well, you can see you're just going to get all kinds of problems.

To build a 36x36 timber frame you would probably need to be on a foundation 4 feet below grade. You could probably dig the trench with your backhoe. Hire a few masons to build an 8x8 cement block wall on a 10 to 12" thick footing that's 16" wide. But this get sexpensive!

Best of luck with this. Looking forward to seeing how you do it.

[jasonl6]

I agree I think 2 small buildings would be better than one large. Besides you could probably build a "wood shed" and then convert it to a bunk house under the radar. Not sure about NY but here in PA a building under 3000' that is not connected to living quarters or lived in doesn't have to have a full blown permit. Simply register the building with the township and build whatever you want.

Jason

[Elynch77]

So I was reading about something called an Alaska Slab Foundation. From the sounds of it the two key principles are good drainage and tapping geothermal heat. So you start by putting down a lot of gravel with French drains to daylight around the perimeter. You also put down rigid foam insulation 3 feet wide around the foundation about a foot under the surface and angled away from the building. Then the outer part of the slab is reinforced and about a foot thick and sitting on gravel. Then the inner part of the poured slab is thinner between 4 and 6 inches and still reinforced. The center supports come right up through like a pole barn while the outer supports are on the slab. I feel like I am making this sound more complicated than it is. I think this is what I am leaning towards. Luckily I can use that dump truck all I want for gravel and my little backhoe will do what I need.

I was also looking at small septic systems which I may drop in at the same time. That is for the bathroom question. There will be one for sure and because it was originally a drilling site there is a lower pad below the big one that was a basin for the stuff that came up when they drilled. Perfect leach field and well below the spring that they also used while drilling. I am not terribly concerned about the bunk room for now since it was going to be roughed in down the road. I also re-drew the plan and came up with an easier design. The center part is 16' by 32' and the ceiling will be 12 feet high. It has an upper floor in the center and an 8' kicker off of each side for a total of 32'x32'. basically a 32' by 16' barn with an 8' leanto on each side. Should be simple to build but have enough space. I will scan the drawing into a PDF when I am back at work.

The boy bounced back from the surgery like it never happened. I know it was just tonsils but he should have slowed down some. I can barely draw with him flying around the house. Popsicle fueled madman.

[backyard sugaring]

Lakeview did you use pre-mixed bags or do it the old fashion way 3-2-1. Been thinking about pouring a floor in my new addtion on my barn. I have a couple of months before sugar season starts. Thanks Lee

[Elynch77]

Okay I did some research and I think bang for the buck has a slab on footers out front. I would hate to have it all crack up after one year because I went cheap on the most important step. Something from Bible school about a wise man built his house on the rock. Out of context but valid none the less. Either way we will be tapping that area for ever as long as the weather holds out so should probably build to last. What is with this fall/winter by the way. It hasn't even gotten cold yet.