Syrup Quality?

[northwoods_forestry]

I was recently at a syrup tasting for one of the big re-packagers of retail maple syrup. Not sure how else to put this, but the syrup was not good. In fact, it was pretty close to awful. Not off, really, it just wasn't the maple syrup I'm used to. What's going on? Anyone else have this sort of experience?

[TunbridgeDave]

I've tasted all kinds of bad syrup before. Usually it's at the re-sellers like Bascom's where it goes as C. If you've got a bad batch of syrup for some reason, they will always give you something for it. The first time I ever went there I had a 5gal drum of syrup that I had burned years ago. I was embarrassed to even have them open it, but then they showed me some of the crap they take, in ballooned up drums etc. He said mine was excellent. On the other end of the spectrum I had one of those little gift bottles of syrup from a wedding once. It looked like Fancy, but it was the worst stuff I'd ever tasted. I thought how awful it was to have all the guests take home such a lousy sample of what VT is known for.

I think there will always be sugarmakers out there that don't know what they're doing or don't care.

[northwoods_forestry]

I guess I'm wondering how much some of our newer production technologies are affecting flavor. If a batch of skanky sap that I boil comes out at Grade C would that same sap concentrated to 20+% in an RO and boiled for half the time come out Grade A?

[maplecrest]

add a bubbler system and it would possibly come out even lighter

[DrTimPerkins]

add a bubbler system and it would possibly come out even lighter

An air injector during most of the year will produce lighter-colored and lighter-flavored syrup. At the end of the season though, an air injector has little effect, so you do make dark syrup regardless. If, as you say, it is skanky sap....it'll most likely be skanky syrup. No getting around that.

[northwoods_forestry]

If, as you say, it is skanky sap....it'll most likely be skanky syrup. No getting around that.

Yes, but flavor aside, could that skanky syrup be light enough to pass off as grade A dark?

[wiam]

No, because grade is not just color.

[KZecher]

a final product still relates back to how the taps are maintained?? washing lines at the end of last either pushing water up or sucking a little chlorinated water back to the releaser? does any of this relate back to cleanliness of the operation? pans, tanks, lines, RO,vacuum,

[KZecher]

that taste has to come from somewhere..

[DrTimPerkins]

No, because grade is not just color.

Exactly. Syrup is graded by color AND flavor. If it is light in color, but tastes like crap, it'll be considered to be commercial (or substandard) regardless of how light it is.

[Dave Y]

However taste is subjective, color is not. what tastes bad to you, may be good to some one else, and vice versa.

[Maple Hobo]

Has anyone experienced any less "maple" to the flavor if they produced the syrup too quickly from the tree? Can processing the syrup on the same day its collected cause it to have less converted sugars? I personaly haven't worked with blending to make lighter syrup or played with testing the sugars for converted etc. I'm expecting to get to be less in the woods and more in the sugar shack this season... Any thoughts or opinions about this part of the process?

[buckeye gold]

I have a rule....I taste every batch and if it's skanky or burnt, off flavor it does not get bottled, period. I have a friend who will gladly feed it to his Honey Bees. Also i seldom boil sap that is shaded or old. I take pride in my product and a buck won't make me sale crap!

[gmcooper]

Maple Hobo there is no such thing as making syrup too quickly from the tree. The fresher the sap the better. Any time sap is sitting around bacteria is growing in it.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Maple Hobo there is no such thing as making syrup too quickly from the tree. The fresher the sap the better. Any time sap is sitting around bacteria is growing in it.

and the bacteria not only lower the quality, they feed on the sugar so they also reduce yield.

[Maple Hobo]

and the bacteria not only lower the quality, they feed on the sugar so they also reduce yield.

Don't you want some of the sugar to be converted by the bacteria? I read in the maple book about the blending and all the chemistry like info about converted sugars and all.

Also with using an RO and shortening the cook off time doesn't that effect how the syrups flavor might end up with less carmelization (spelling) etc. in the final product?
The cook time being reduced from 10 hours to 4 has to make a difference to it.

You can't tell me there is no difference in the taste of a roast that is microwaved verses on that is slow roasted...

If you had access to a flash freezer and used ice removal to reduce the syrup it would taste a lot different too wouldn't it with no cooking?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I guess it depends on the flavor you are looking for. Personally, I prefer the light delicate flavor of a light amber syrup and I usually can command a higher price in the bulk market for that light syrup. This is important to me as I produce on a large enough volume that I must sell in the bulk market. As far as conversion of sugars, I have never had a problem with making either candy or cream with my light amber product.
Blind taste tests by maple tasting experts show that they could not tell which products had been produced as a result of using an RO.
I manage to produce enough syrup of the darker, more robust flavor syrup without trying to increase bacterial growth.
Good luck with your maple endeavors.

[northwoods_forestry]

Maple Hobo and Thompsons - You've both hit on what I was driving at, so let me try to rephrase the question:

If RO processed sap yields lighter syrup what does this say about flavor? If sap boiled by traditional methods would produce Grade A Med (VT) that same sap through an RO and boiled 1/2 as long could yield Fancy, but the flavor would still be A Med, right? But what would it be sold as, A Med or Fancy?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Flavor might not be medium as the syrup is boiled less and as Hobo suggests, this may lead to less carmilization and thus a "lighter" flavor

[DrTimPerkins]

So the problem with this thread is that we're trying to talk about "simple" rules to a very complex issue. First off, there are tree and environmental site issues that affect sap production and flavor. Then there is the sap chemistry and how microbes affect the sap chemistry between collection and processing (and sometimes even after processing, such as fermentation, molding, or metallic off-flavors). As an example, there are about 120+ individual "flavor" molecules in maple syrup (who knew what is seemingly such as simple liquid could make such a complex product) and probably about 30 "off-flavor" molecules, which sometimes people like (smoke, metabolism) and sometimes they don't (ferment, metallic). After this there are thousands of different combinations of collection, storage, and pre-processing factors, in addition to the time-factor (how quickly is your sap processed). Then there is the actual processing regime itself, with dozens to hundreds of variations there, including the rapidity of processing. All along that pathway there are conversions in the sap due to microbes, enzymatic browning reactions (enzymes + sugars in the sap reacting with each other....kind of like what happens on the surface of a cut apple), non-enzymatic browning (or Maillard reactions) resulting from the reaction of amino acids and reducing sugars, usually with heat, and finally...the direct result of heat itself. The acidity of the sap (related to microbial activity) when you start boiling it also has a strong influence (it impacts the length of the "alkaline degradation" phase of color formation). Toss in the formation of niter and you've got quite a few possible influences on the final flavor. Then there is the storage container, conditions, and length of time in the container....and finally, how you serve it (temperature, etc.) and what you put it on. In short....there's enough chemistry going on there to keep us scientists scratching our heads about many things for several more generations. Job security I guess.

So, given all that, what can we say in terms of generalities:

1. Collecting and processing sap quickly tends to result in lighter-colored and flavored syrup.
2. Delayed collection and slow processing of sap tends to result in darker-colored and stronger-flavored syrup (if taken to extremes, can result in sour sap off-flavor).
3. Use of RO, particularly at high concentration levels, and particularly in very efficient and fast evaporators may result in lighter-colored and flavored syrup.
4. Slow processing (especially of sap rather than concentrate), with inefficient evaporators may result in darker-colored and stronger-flavored syrup.
5. Air injection will generally result in lighter-colored and flavored syrup.
6. Extremely efficient and fast steam-evaporators tend to extremely light syrup (these rigs tend to be different in many ways).
7. Early season syrup tends to be lighter in color and flavor, whereas late season syrup tends to be darker and stronger-flavored.

Many people think heat and cooking time are real important.....well...it can be under some conditions, but oftentimes not as much as you'd think. Very briefly, different sugars (sucrose --- the dominant sugar in maple sap, glucose, fructose, others) all have different "activation energies. You can think of this as the temperature at which something happens....almost like a thermostat. When you hit the activation energy of, for example, glucose....it will begin to turn brown and develop characteristic flavor molecules. This can happen pretty quickly once you achieve that activation temperature. Once all the molecules of that sugar have been converted....they're done.....they aren't going to get any darker, nor make any more of those same flavor molecules. So cooking it longer doesn't have a huge influence after that point, except that some of the original flavor molecules will have different activation energies and may undergo further transformations, and some of the other types of sugars may start to hit their own activation energies.

In terms of specifics....as you can see from the above....it's just real complicated, and getting only a few of the parameters is not enough to say much about what is going on in one particular operation.

[Bucket Head]

Dr. Tim,

Please explain what causes the "metallic" taste in syrup. I've had syrup (not my own) that tasted like that. I figured the syrup picked up an off flavor from the can itself. I have not used metal cans because of that experience. Thanks.

Steve

[DrTimPerkins]

Metallic off-flavor is typically caused by long-term storage in an unlined metal can. It doesn't happen all the time...seems to depend somewhat on the syrup chemistry as well. It is less common these days with most cans being lined, and cans being somewhat out of favor to some degree. Syrup packed in tin may actually lighten in color a bit, and can pick up a metallic off-flavor...really bites the tongue and teeth. Most often happens with an opened can that isn't stored cold. In extreme cases, the syrup may appear to have a slight gray or green tinge to it as well. Nasty stuff. Some people can't seem to taste it though.

Appendix 4 (starting on page 303) of the North American Maple Producers Manual has good descriptions of some of the common off-flavors.

[KZecher]

carmilization and thus a "lighter" flavor...
I am not sure about caramelization is the right word because if it is not tested to be 66% sugar at the right temperature when testing you dont have syrup. anything above could become caramelized but it needs to be cooked

[Toblerone]

How subtle are these off flavors? I've never tasted syrup I didn't like. Is my taster just not good enough? How do you know if an off flavor is grounds for reducing the grade? Is there a tasting lab somewhere we can send samples? Or a taste-discriminating seminar where you can try and be aware of all of these off-flavors?

[Thad Blaisdell]

when you start running high vacuum, your season gets longer..... the longer you go the nastier it gets. I made some a couple years ago that when tasted you wanted to lick the floor to get it off your tongue. Commercial at its finest. When I took it to Bascoms they tasted it and said it wasnt that bad compared to some that they had taken in.

[red maples]

I bought as many "store brand" bottles of syrup I could find about 2 years ago. they vary sometimes you get good ones sometimes they really aren't good at all. They mix and blend and blend and mix and as far as know try to use up as much cheaper syrup as possible make sense they wanna make as much profit as they can for the $ spent. They also want cheap syrup because they wanna out price the the godd stuff. I try my best to buy as local as possible when it come to stuff and its never cheaper but 99% of the time is way better.!!!!


I've tasted all kinds of bad syrup before. Usually it's at the re-sellers like Bascom's where it goes as C. If you've got a bad batch of syrup for some reason, they will always give you something for it. The first time I ever went there I had a 5gal drum of syrup that I had burned years ago. I was embarrassed to even have them open it, but then they showed me some of the crap they take, in ballooned up drums etc. He said mine was excellent. On the other end of the spectrum I had one of those little gift bottles of syrup from a wedding once. It looked like Fancy, but it was the worst stuff I'd ever tasted. I thought how awful it was to have all the guests take home such a lousy sample of what VT is known for.

I think there will always be sugarmakers out there that don't know what they're doing or don't care.

[rgmaple]

If it's BUDDY, it's buddy. The color doesn't matter.

[Beweller]

There are at least indications--if not proof--that the microbes growing in the sap play an important part in producing the maple flavor. And that not all microbes are equal.

See the reports from Centre Acer and a US patent.