Concrete tanks

[archerybs]

Does anyone use concrete tanks for sap storage? I was thinking of burying one at my collection point, painting the inside with food grade paint, and using it for a vacuum tank. Seems like it would work but I thought I see if anyone has any experience with it.

[mapleack]

Sorry, not a great idea. It'd be very difficult to clean, worse than plastic, and cleanliness is the most important thing in making good syrup. It also wouldn't work for vacuum, even if you managed to seal it air tight, it'd crack or implode.

[jasonl6]

a neighbor has one that has a small poly tank inside. He has a large field 1/2 mile across it and the sap was heating up. He buried the line and it dumps into the poly tank then gets pumped in his sugar house. I would never store or let my sap come in contact with cement.

Jason

[flooder]

why not,they use concrete spring tiles for drinking water every day

[archerybs]

Flooder, I was thinking the same thing. People with springs use concrete tanks for their holding tanks all the time. You would think if there is a bacteria problem they would not be used. I realize concrete is somewhat pourous, so that's why I was thinking of painting(sealing) with food grade paint. I'm new to this so I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, it was just an idea I had. I'm interested to hear some more comments.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?14784-Food-grade-paint-inside-metal-drums&highlight=food+grade+paint

[Thad Blaisdell]

Last time I checked my spring didnt have 2% sugar. Man do I wish it did. That would be one difference between a spring and sap.

One question, if you walked into a resteraunt and they hauled your water out of an old cement thing would you want to drink it? Why is everyone always trying to find a cheaper (and I dont mean less expensive) way to hold, gather, boil sap. Come on you guys, we dont want big goverment telling us what to do and yet we keep hearing the same dumb ideas over and over. If it was big enough some of you guys would want to know if your cats litter box would be ok to use. Lets set it straight, stainless steel is the #1 way to go. Plastic containers (new) is the second best. After that you are on your own and god help you if you get someone sick.

[waysidemaple]

Can't say I am a fan of the concrete tank idea either. There is a big difference between water and sap and how much crap grows in it. If you want to bury a tank buy stainless and bury it. Just don't do the concrete and paint idea. Don't take it the wrong way its just somethings can work and somethings just cant when you talk about sap storage and still being able to make quality product. Just my two cents.

Scott

[archerybs]

Thanks for the comments guys. Like I said, I'm new to this and it was just an idea I had...looks like it's a no go.

[S Culver]

At my last house we could not get a well so we used a concrete tank (cistern) with an epoxy paint and it worked quite well. I would think the same princple would work for sap. The top has a large concrete cover which allowed me to drain it and clean it every year. If you are usung vacume sealing this top would be a problem. good luck

[mike z]

One day I was out collecting sap and found a dead mouse in a bucket. I dumped the sap out and took the bucket home and thoughly cleaned it. Now if the syrup I was making was just for me, I would have dumped the bucket and just hung it back up on the tree without a second thought, but I have a feeling the people that buy my syrup probably have higher standards; and those are the people I keep in mind throughout the entire process. I would not have a problem wolfing down a pile of flapjacks with maple syrup made from a concrete sap storage tank but my aunt might. She's highfalutin.

[maple flats]

No such thig as food grade paint for storage. There is some rated OK for incidental contact. Storage is a whole different thing.

[whalems]

this apears to be an 2 part epoxy paint that is food safe. Unless I am missing something.

http://www.eastkem.com/categ_2.html

Having said that stainless would still be a better choice for ease of cleaning and a life time of use.

[Brian Ryther]

[QUOTE=mike z;168076]One day I was out collecting sap and found a dead mouse in a bucket. I dumped the sap out and took the bucket home and thoughly cleaned it. Now if the syrup I was making was just for me, I would have dumped the bucket and just hung it back up on the tree without a second thought, but I have a feeling the people that buy my syrup probably have higher standards; and those are the people I keep in mind throughout the entire process. QUOTE]
If you are from NY you would clean the bucket, If from VT you would remove the mouse and process the sap, if from PA you would wring the mouse out and make PA fancy syrup.

[Brent]

It amazes me how many guys think they are smarter than the hundreds of thousands of people that have already spent a lifetime in the food processing businesses in every country of the world. If you could coat anything (plywood, concrete etc) with a paint job and put all the stainless manufacturers out of business, it would have been done a long time ago. Maybe someone will make a coating in the future ... and when they do it will be BIG news.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

well Thad I have an question for you, me being a flat lander and all we use concrete tanks for is pooops where I come from being an electrician here in the State of VT have been in a lot of basements with cisterns that the old farm house used for the storage of water the old timers never got sick from it and by the way pretty sure they were made out of concrete.

[allgreenmaple]

Good point Flats. I've personally seen some huge cisterns under old houses.

[spud]

For all you cement fans i have a used septic tank for sale. There is a special kind of monkey piss that works great for cleaning cement tanks. Just log on to www.heresyoursign.com. It has a small crack so it can only be two turds full. Asking price is $1.00

Spud

[Thad Blaisdell]

As I stated earlier, my water doesnt have 2% sugar in it. Can you imagine how much bacteria would grow in cement? That would be the nastiest looking mess in no time. Even if it were painted, paint cracks, peels, chips, gets worn down. And now any of that would go into the evaporator. I dont know about you but I dont eat paint chips. Years ago they made paint that was "safe" people still get sick and die from it. Not sure I would trust the composition much either.


Why would you screw around with anything substadard when it comes to a product that you take pride in making.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

well Thad I have an question for you, me being a flat lander and all we use concrete tanks for is pooops where I come from being an electrician here in the State of VT have been in a lot of basements with cisterns that the old farm house used for the storage of water the old timers never got sick from it and by the way pretty sure they were made out of concrete.

People used to get sick from a lot of thing and never knew what caused it. I'm sure sometimes it was from cistern water. My house has a cistern and the water was only used for washing, not for consumption. Thad is 100% right on this.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Thanks for the comments guys. Like I said, I'm new to this and it was just an idea I had...looks like it's a no go.

Stick with Stainless or food grade plastic and you will be all set, as long as nothing but FOOD has been in the containers, drums, tanks etc

[markct]

us plastics makes some big plastic cisterns designed to be buried and are for potable water it says, dont have the catalog handy but a google search should find them

[mike z]

I don't know, it's going to be hard to beat Spuds $1.00 deal for that cement tank.

[The Sweet Spot]

I went to a class a couple of years back, for sap collection at the Northern Michgian Small Farm Conference. One of the largest producers in the state was giving the class. They use concrete tanks, underground, coated with a two part epoxy, that is food grade safe. I personaly have an old steel tank that has been lined with food grade epoxy. One thing that never changes, is that everything changes.

[unc23win]

If you are from NY you would clean the bucket, If from VT you would remove the mouse and process the sap, if from PA you would wring the mouse out and make PA fancy syrup.[/QUOTE]

Yea then we sell our Syrup to Bascoms dumb ***.

[DrTimPerkins]

I went to a class a couple of years back, for sap collection at the Northern Michgian Small Farm Conference. One of the largest producers in the state was giving the class. They use concrete tanks, underground, coated with a two part epoxy, that is food grade safe. I personaly have an old steel tank that has been lined with food grade epoxy. One thing that never changes, is that everything changes.

We (and others) have done a lot of investigating of food grade linings and epoxies for mitigating lead in maple storage tanks. We've not found anything suitable for producers to apply on their own. There are various categories of "food-safe." In many cases, it'll say "food-safe", but that means "for incidental contact" (for example, a splash zone where product might hit occasionally and splash back into a food storage or prep area. It often does not mean "for prolonged contact" or "storage of food.". In addition, many of the epoxies that are used to line tanks must be baked on in an oven at several hundred degrees F in order to fully cure. These are not DIY projects. If you put it on a surface and don't heat-treat it, it will contantly bleed off solvent for years. Other types are multi-part epoxies that tend to be very nasty and difficult to apply (requiring a respirator and full protective gear).

Not saying there isn't something suitable out there.....just that in years of looking....it hasn't been found yet.

In the case of the product mentioned earlier (Eastkem Coatguard)....the website doesn't provide any application instructions, no MSDS, doesn't say if it is incidental or prolonged food safe, and originates from the Phillipines. Anybody want to be the first to try it?

Sap has properties that make it more difficult to store properly compared to water. It tends to be slightly acidic, so it leaches stuff out of the storage material more readily. It also has sugar and nutrients in it that make microorganisms grow very well (which also tends to make the sap even more acidic).

Lastly....we just took a water storage cistern out of service here at UVM PMRC a few months ago. It was causing our water samples to fail the microbiological tests.

[The Sweet Spot]

Dr. Tim; Should I scrap the steel tank that I have. It came with the equipment that I bought. It is so heavy that I havent moved it yet. It looks like an old Pressure tank of some sort with huge rivits 1 1/4'" through 3/8" steel. The top 1/3 is cut off (open top), and it is coated with some type of two part epoxy. I have no idea what product was used, but the previous owner told me he used the food grade epoxy. Our Department of Ag. has approved the tank but that hasn't made me excited enough to drive my tractor 6 miles to get it. Maybe I shouldn't waste my time picking it up, "till I'm headed to the scrap yard".
Thank You