Time between drawoff's

[SUGARSMITH]

I was wondering. When I have my evaporator going I have these bursts where I drawoff quite a bit of syrup every few minutes, and then nothing for quite a while, maybe 30-40 minutes. I realize that when I drawoff the less dense sap with the lower temp is coming in the pan. Then the cycle happens again.

I was wondering if anybody has had similiar problem or if that is the nature of the beast.

I use wood for heat and have a 2 pan setup with back pan being a raised flu 4x8

[mountainvan]

yep, been sugaring for 12 years and still can't get the trickle drawoff down. Too many other things to do like lobstafari said, is he a jamacan reggae crustatean? I draw off a couple gallons every 10-15 minutes, and yell syrup everytime I do. It's exciting like trolling along in the boat, and bam a 4lb walleye slams your lure!! But that;'s just me. I do the same thing when I take the lid off of a full bucket of sap, gotta love it to do it!!

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[SUGARSMITH]

I use the marcland drawoff and I am guessing that part of the problem may be that with the drawoff it is full open or fill closed. Perhaps I will put a ballvalve before it to regulate the rate at which it draws off

[brookledge]

Sugarsmith
you got the right idea 1/4 turn gate valve to slow the draw off down just keep an eye on it the you don't hold it back to much and make tar
Keith

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I usually run my evaporator up to about 10 on the thermometer and start a trickle drawoff. This way I can draw off for usually about 15 to 30 minutes. If it gets up to 12, I open it up a little more until it gets back down to 9 or 10 and then slow it down and then usually let it get down to just under 7 and shut it off. I calibrated my thermoters with boiling raw sap three years ago and have not touched them since and it gets me close every time. I may have some molasses this year starting it at 10 more than last year, but faster to thin than to boil to get thicker in the finisher. :D

[Sugarmaker]

Kevin,
We have only a partial hood on the front and it sets on the pan. 5 inch gap on right and left and 12 inches short on the front. This way I can see what is happening in all sections and we still get good steam draft. (10 inch steam pipe dia). I tend to have large batches vs a trickle flow. Of course we are drawing off manually like the cave men did. I have so much head pressure that I have to throttle down the raw sap to avoid over flow of the float valve.
Chris

[sapman]

One thing the guys at Leader always remind me of is to keep close track of routine defoaming, every 6 or 7 minutes in my case. Foam can cause allot of problems with drawoff inconsistencies. If I defoam the steamaway/flue pan, I don't usually have to worry too much about the front pan. But if I do, the only place they want you to defoam is at the drawoff, or the front of that partition, if necessary.

Tim

[Lance]

Brandon - What do you mean by starting it at 10 more than last year?

Another question - is 10 in. smokestack about right for a 2x6 woodfired evap?

Thanks!

[markcasper]

I have a totally covered evaporator. If there is a problem having syrup in the middle compartments at start-up, that would seem to me that there was too much concentrated sap in the pan from the last boil. I learned a trick from my neighbor years ago and seems to work well.

My neighbor has a 4x6 front pan and i have a 4x4 front pan, both are reverse flow.

I always try to get as much syrup off at the end as possible. Sometimes, I even fire with small kindling while cleaning up in the sugarhouse..etc. I like to have it down to no more than half a finger nail depth prior to starting in with new sap.

I draw as much as I can, then plug the side off thats feeding from the flue pan. I draw off maybe 1 1/2-2 gallons of concentrated sap from the sugaring off side (by this time there should be no more than 1/2 inch in the front pan, better if its 1/4 inch) Then I pour about 5-6 gallons of cold raw sap into the sugaring off side. I then unplug the side that i plugged before and let maybe 1-2 gallons go back into the flue pan. I then plug that side again and remove the plug from the side where i was sugaring off to have it prepared for the next boil.

Prior to starting up, I pour the concentrate into the opposite side of where i was making syrup the time before.

The key is to not have alot of sap left in the pans. If you know your evaporator well, it comes pretty easy. The maple producers manual talks of flooding the pans with 3-5 inches of sap prior to shut down. Thats a bunch of B.S. !!!! You ARE going to have start-up problems if theres that much left in there. Often times, the tops of my flues are dry or just barely wet prior to start-up.

The key, in my opinion is to not have alot of leftovers...I fire hard til theres about 15-20 gallons of sap left in the tank. The last hour, however, I do fire with smaller stuff....slabs work good for this. With forced air, a raging fire will be a camp-fire within a few minutes.

Forgot to mention...my neighbor with the 4x6 pan pours in 2 5 gallon pails of sap. The larger the pan, the more sap and vice-versa. Mark

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[markcasper]

Kevin, from my experience the forced draft cools down amazingly fast, like i said-raging inferno to a little campfire within minutes-especially with slab wood finishing up.

I have 4 large doors in my front hood, so i do have access to the pan. There has been a few times when starting that i have had syrup in the middle, this has always been when someone else has shut down boiling the time before.

I guess i have just poured raw sap into the middle if its getting overdone. I get a large draw eventually, but this seems to work, if you add enough sap in the middle, it will get thinner and push the thickest stuff forward. Mark

[markcasper]

100 gallons to cool down??? must be using ironwood or apple?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Who says you can't have a wood fired syrup pan boiling in 5 minutes or less. I started mine Sat morning with at least 1/2" of ice in the entire evaporator and I had the back part of the center two compartments on my syrup pan boiling in less than 5 minutes. Yeah, it shocked me too. 8O :lol:

[TroutBrookSH]

Lance,

You asked whether a 10" stack is reasonable for a 2x6. I have an 11" stack on my 2x6. I used an 8" stack on my old 2x4. Seems 10" is probably on the low end of about-right.

Greg

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[DougM]

So.... how deep are you guys running in the front pans?

We're still learning about our rig we got last year, and we can't reverse flow, so some of your shut-down suggestions won't work for us, but I did manage to get the trickle for 5 minutes or so a couple times on Sunday. We have a Marcland drawoff but the solenoid valve seal isn't cooperating right now so we're roughing it and drawing off manually. I was getting the trickle with it wide open, though.

[Sugarmaker]

Doug,
We boil at least a inch deep and sometimes 1-1/2 inch.

As for the time to boil from a cold start, I usually think I am doing good to get a boil in 15 -20 minutes!

Just printing some maple and honey business cards while checking out the trader. Man the weather doesn't look real good for at least another week. I have to try to dump the ice from the sap buckets if it warms enough tomorrow.

We just jerked out the old Culligan water softener tonight. Any one have suggestions on good brand to buy?

Chris

[DougM]

Chris,
thanks for the info, maybe I'll raise the level a little tomorrow.

We replaced our softener last spring with one that's manufactured here in IN. I love it because it's on-demand, not just cycling every few days whether we need it or not. It's from Premier Products Group in New Haven, IN, It also has a pretty small footprint. It's a little more expensive than some more common brands, but well-recommended by a friend in the plumbing biz.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Chris,

Got mine from the local Agway. Not sure if they have those in your neck of the woods.

It was a custom system (matched the resin tank, valving, brine tank to fit the application).

My old sears had a venturi that was always clogging up.

Knock on wood, I haven't cleaned this one in two years.

Good Luck.

My area should be barely running in the next few days, then back cold again. This is weird for March...our season should be just about over about this time in a "normal" :lol: year.

Brian

[markcasper]

Doug, my marcland drawoff likes to jam up after a few hundred gallons of syrup. What i mean is that flakes of sugar sand develop and actually cause it to not shut all the way sometimes. I take it off and open it manually and run clean water through it both ways via garden hose, sometimes have to blow on it to get the crap out. Mark

[DougM]

Mark,
thanks for the tip, I think that's part of our problem. I spoke w/Marcland today and got some more info on alignment and using a valve before the solenoid valve to throttle it down and regulate the drawoff temp. a little better. Fortunately we have a spare valve we can use for that, so I'm going to attempt to get it installed for boiling on Saturday.

[mapleman3]

Ok Getting back to drawoff, I use the trickle method as much as possible, I find that with a consistant fire(oil)I want to keep the flow in the pans moving, no need to stop once at temp, so I manage to get a pencil lead to pencil sized steady stream for a long time if all is right, yes foam down makes that much easier so I have seen...I run my syrup pan at 1- 1 1/4" most of the time.... at shut down since I'm on oil, I don't flood the pans.. I go right to no sap in feed tank , shut the valves between the pans and shut the switch off, at start up I'm starting with 1 1/2" and may allow a little sap from the back pan in to push the sugar to drawoff side...only once in a while if I'm not carefull I'll have to draw a big batch off at first, usually I'll start drawing of the first stream a bit on the low side, then even off, everynow and again it will creep up to 8 or 9 but not too often.If I'm not watching carefully...

[Lance]

Thanks, Greg (Troutbrook) - I appreciate your info and advice!

[markcasper]

Doug, I like the marcland controller box, but the valve is a piece of crap in my opinion. Maybe they have improved them now, (mine is 7 years old)

When i used the old charlette controller, that valve i liked. It opened right now and closed right now, none of this waiting 5 seconds for the valve to open and another 5 for it to close.

I always wanted to somehow rig that cholette solenoid to run off the marcland. Anybody know if that can be done? Probably not being that the cholette was run off a 12 volt battery and not 110???? And never seemed to have the time to study it. I am not an electrician either. Mark

[DougM]

Mark,

apparently they have improved the valve by making the "stem" where the solenoid energizes it longer. Ours is the old style with the short stem. Not sure if we can retrofit it or not. Ours does not seem to have the delay problem you mentioned, though.

Fortunately my dad and my sugaring partner are both electricians, so I have a lot of (needed) help in that area.

I wonder if you could use a transformer to step the voltage down for the other valve? There's already one in the Marcland control box, but I can't remember off the top of my head what it does. We haven't had ours open to play around with it since last year.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[DougM]

Kevin,
Is Hutville, Ethiopia anywhere near Bumford, Egypt? :) :)

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[markcasper]

I was in a situation the other night while shutting down in where I needed more syrup for the filter press (hot already) I was expecting more syrup and lo and behold I ran out of sap, in fact seen the feed line going dry just after I had put some slabs in. The forced draft really helps cool things down in a hurry,

Anyway. I had about 1 1/4 inches in the pan and was pee, oed that i was out of sap. Instead of doing my normal shut down procedure, I plugged the feed from the flue pan as there was no extra sap to spare there. I then took about 2-3 gallons of condensate and poured in the opposite side that i was sugaring off on. I then through in some kindling on the syrup side and wolla, I got another 2 1/2 gallon draw and was able to get the syrup out of the pan.

Actyually I have did this several times before. The syrup was already dark enough,,why let it sit in the pan for days and then you';d just have 2 1/2 gallons more that will be darker yet. This procedure I have found helps to eliminate getting syrup in the middle compartments when firing the next time around. Thought someone would like to know Mark