Logging expectations

[S Culver]

For the last 9 months I have had a logger working on removing pines and select hardwoods. The pine removal was good but the select timbering was hard to take (skinned a lot of maples). Last week he was going to move to another side of the property that borders a recreational development so we set out tape to mark out several areas we wanted off limits to ease the impact on our neighbors. He talked with my wife and they walked it on Tuseday. He was not to pleased as he has had a little bit of an attidude about leaving any of the timber behind. ( out agreement is a 50/50 split on the hardwood not a bid ) On Wednsday he moved to our next door Neighbors property and promptly started working for him. He was going to do this when he finished with us anyway. I just went through a bunch of areas where he was working and the roads he left in some areas are not graded (Still have skidder ruts) and some trails have tops left on them and the last landing is not seeded. In general what should the expectation of how a logger leaves an area? This was not in our contract due to the fact 10 yrs ago when he did our last cutting he did a very nice job.

[markcasper]

Without a written contract specifying exactly what your requirements were, there is probably not alot you can do at this point. If he was throwing an attitude about not getting enough quantity of hardwood, he probably could care less about leveling ruts, seeding and removing slash. Did the logger know before hand that you wanted some of the woods off limits? If you were bothered by him doing excessive damage to the remaining trees, I would have had him shut him down ASAP! In the county I reside in I know of six loggers and NONE of them are worth a crap!!! They prey on people that know little of forest management (i.e. older people, doctors and dentists and lawyers) and they all have the name of "door knockers".

[maple flats]

I'm keeping an eye on a logger working the adjacent property to my lease. The line was well marked in August, but that property owner had posted a few signs that went about 200' into my lease at one point. This is on a line that according to the deed runs perfectly straight for 2640'. According to his signs he agreed on the line for about 1700' and then jutted into my lease the 200' +/- and in the remaining distance wandered back to within a few feet of a very well marked corner where 4 properties meet. The proper line was then remarked very plainly. I'm going back up to work today and will go look to see if he is crossing the line and stealing timber. NYS has some very strict new laws about timber theft, I hope the landowner doesn't need to pursue it in court. Secondly, I hope he doesn't remove the 2-3 acres of good sugar maples in that area. That area would be tubed and tapped either in 2013 or 2014 if it isn't screwed up. I just don't trust many loggers.

[markcasper]

maple flats....I did not bring this up in my last post. There is an adjoining woodlot immediately north of ours that had just got logged last week and the week before. Our woods is scheduled to be thinned NOW, just waiting on the logger. I spent many hours this fall getting all of the tubing, wire and mainline removed for this project. At any rate.....The logger pulled in 2 weeks ago and the very first day he dropped two ginormous red oaks across into our woods, trashing the line fence and snapping off a few birch that were marked for removal in our woods, as well as destroying some saplings. He approached my dad prior to this and asked if he could use our cornfield that had already been chopped for access to get the log trucks out. My dad told him it was ok as long as he repaired the fence afterwards. A few days later, the logger moved down the line fence some more, dropped several more trees across, pulverized the fence, left the tops on ours again. Now yesterday he moved even further down the line and now has dropped trees into our cornfield that hasn't been harvested yet!! Talk about frustrating! I am at odds with my father because he is not one that wants to say anything, does not want to stir up a rift with the neighbors. I warned my father and the neighbor who was having the logging done that he was making a big mistake in getting this logger. This logger is currently out on probation with a hearing in Feburary for felony theft! My neighbor had approached me a few years ago about tapping his trees and now has most of them removed. The woods was totally high-graded and really makes me wonder where peoples heads are.

[peckfarm]

Our logger is the best around but we still make him pay a deposit on every job. He gripes about it every time but business is business.

[heus]

When our neighbor (my aunt) had her woods logged last year we actually had ours surveyed. The surveyor marked every 50 feet or so along the line where our woods meets hers. There were no distinguishing features that separated our woods from hers, because it all used to be one parcel when my great grandfather owned it. In addition to the marks that the surveyor made, I strung yellow police tape along the entire line. We also talked to the logger before he got started. Everything went smooth (except for us losing several huge sugar maples to the wind once they became edgeline trees, but thats another story). Dont be afraid to be assertive with the loggers. They will think you are a pain in the *** but believe me it is worth it. My dad, who is retired, stood and watched them for several days. I think they got the hint that we weren't going to tolerate our woods getting damaged or "accidently" cutting our trees. From what I have heard, some logging companies have a "cut now, ask for forgiveness later" policy. Meaning that they often cut trees on neighboring properties. If the landowner comes back on them, they offer free firewood or something like that.

[oneoldsap]

Honest loggers are as scarse as honest lawyers . Watch them like a hawk . I'd always mark the trees at breast height and on the stump just above the ground . Still I found stumps at ground level buried under brush . Some things never change .

[petersp22]

Threads like this disappoint me. I manage a quarter million acres of state owned land and I vigorously support science-based forest management. Every year we establish sales on 5-6,000 acres. Our sales are established and administered by professional foresters. We occasionally get complaints from neighbors but they are usually based on aesthetics and not silviculture. Our forest is certified as sustainably managed by both FSC and SFI. We get good prices for our wood and get the silvicultural results we prescribe. The point is that it doesn't have to go the way the original poster experienced. There are reputable loggers out there. They appreciate a contract as it lays everything out for them too. We take a 15% performance bond from them and I can not recall more than a couple times when we went after that. Simply starting that process usually fixed things like roads, landings, etc. Their business depends on their good credit and that depends on doing good work. But my experience suggests that starting your project with the services of a professional forester that comes with a list of references will produce the best outcome for you. Experiences like the ones described above might give the whole field of forest management a bad reputation and I regret that.

[tuckermtn]

I have stayed away from responding to this thread because I am a logger and work in forestry education. It is hard to speak to the specifics of this case as I have not seen S Culver's site or the contract between the two parties. I do know many honest and hard working people in this profession and I work hard every day to conduct my business in a honest, straightforward and professional manner.

[northwoods_forestry]

It might help to remember that most loggers are a lot like sugarmakers. Lots of hard work and not much, if any, profit.

The responses on this thread have identified what I think are the 3 most important considerations when conducting a timber sale:

1. Have a written contract with the logger so that both parties know exactly what the expectations are
2. Get a down payment of at least 10% of the estimated sale value
3. Unless you oversee harvests and work with forest contractors every day, hire a forester who does (disclosure - I am a consulting forester).

[maple flats]

My mind is at ease. Yesterday I spoke to the logger working the adjacent lot. He seems to be good and honest. I also walked the line between my lease and the lot he is logging. He has a few tops crossing the line but he never cut on or too close to the line for comfort and the tops that crossed only cross by the last few feet of tips. He has not left a big mess. Just based on what I saw and our very pleasant conversation I would recommend him. The only thing that bothered me was a fact that he works totally alone. He has a med size cable skidder. He drops the trees, limbs them, bunches them and pulls them out. into an open field where a log truck can get them. The only thing I don't know is if a forester was used to mark the trees to remove but the portion I could see it looked like a good, neat job. No where did I see trees all over that had been driven over, he actually cut his roads and bridged a very small stream he had to cross.

[wally]

i'm not going to disparage a particular occupation (except for lawyers). are there bad loggers? of course. just as there are some bad foresters. bad doctors. bad teachers. etc etc. but there are far more loggers who work hard, and deal with clients fairly and honestly (at least in nh).

sounds to me like the orignal poster probably needed some professional advice BEFORE the harvest took place. after the fact is pretty much too late to do anything meaningful about it. unless you know the real value of your timber, you probably shouldn't be selling wood without the assistance of someone representing your interests.


frankly, i've worked with dozens of logging crews over the past 20 years. there are two out of those dozens with whom i will no longer do business, but job performance isn't the reason. i've been happy with the work performed by the various crews for my clients, and the skill and art demonstrated by each of these loggers in performing their jobs is a testament to their talents, and their pride in their work.

wally
nh licensed professional forester

[S Culver]

Most people who responded to this thread ragged on loggers I was looking for what should be a standard expectation as to how a logger leaves and area. Petersp22 and Tuckermtn since you are in the business how do you like to see the logging roads and old trails left when the job has been wrapped up?

[tuckermtn]

what is refered to as "close-out" is the key to how a job will look 2-4 years after work is complete. I tend to leave skid roads brushy since that is a good way to reduce soil compaction when operating. If there is a recreational use of a trail I specify in the contact that that one recieve additional clean up at an additional cost to the landowner. I also use the feller buncher head to install waterbars as needed. If working for a forester, they will often flag where they want water bars. If a logger is not mechanized (ie. uses a chainsaw and skidder) it takes a little more time to do close-out. Realize that close-out cost money for the logger to do- he should specify that in the contract or more commonly build that in to the price he is paying for the stumpage.

[SouthernSap]

I agree with tuckermtn. Don't forget that the closeout process is an extra step for the logger. What is "normally" expected varies by region. If nothing is said about it, a logger may assume that the land owner really doesn't care much about it, and will do as little as he feels he needs to to make you happy. If you do not talk to him ahead of time about it, how is he to know? Often times (unfortunately), loggers, like many other types of people, tend to put clean-up out of their mind when estimating a job, because they don't like to do it and don't like to think about it. (this will vary from person to person. Some loggers are very conscientious and take pride in cleaning up after themselves. Others can only think about getting on to the next job). The best policy is to be sure to discuss this in GREAT detail with your logger before he gives you a quote or makes an agreement. And yes, get the agreement in paper as a contract, with all the important details, including the clean-up arrangements. Working with a forester is a good idea, but you don't have to if you are familiar with how forestry works. If you aren't, I would suggest at least using a forester the first time you go through the process. They are like real estate agents-- the price of hiring a forester is almost always worth it, especially for larger or more delicate tracts. (If you are having logging done in your sugarbush, I would definitely consider that a delicate tract). My 2 cents.

[jason grossman]

I also spent 14+ years logging and i would also say there are good one and bad ones. but i leave that up to the land owner. due dillegence must be done on the part of the land owner to only hire a competent, certified, professional logger. many state forestry associations will provide a list. then check references. as far as close out, it is an easy part of the job if the logger does it as they go. we would always close roads (graded and seeded) and slashed tops as we went. then when we finished cutting we cleaned up the landing and we were good to go.

[petersp22]

Loggers are my partners. They do the work our foresters prescribe and they do it well. We've been doing this for a very long time and I believe we both have a reasonable understanding of what is practical and expected. We have policies, like rutting for instance, that are enforced all during the sale. Likewise with "Best Management Practices for Water Quality". Our contracts specify things like the height that slash is permitted within roadside areas. So it's really pretty rare that there is a lot of extra work at closeout. We typically have them blade roads and assure BMPs are in place, as Mr. Johnson said. But since I work on public land and we usually keep our roads open for two years for firewood cutters, it is possible that roads may be damaged after the fact. Then it is our responsibility and we have equipment or contractors to make those repairs. Mush of this forest is on sandy soils that are more forgiving that the typically richer soils I suspect most sugarbushes are on.

Does that help?

[SouthernSap]

Peter, from what I hear consistently, the loggers in Wisconsin are generally a very responsible bunch. What you say is in line with what I've heard others say for your state. (I have never stepped foot in wisconsin, but would love to some time).

[SouthernSap]

I don't know about now, but twenty-thirty years ago in Maine, the big ruts were from the skidder tires, and the little ruts were from the skidder differentials! Pretty much the whole woods would be like that unless the logging was done in winter time. Downed trees, tops, and slash everywhere regardless. Land owners took care of cleanup if they cared about it. That's what happened when my dad had 5 acres clear cut, and he didn't complain because he knew that's what would happen. He bought a D-6 Cat after that and cleaned the roads up himself, cleared the clearcut of stumps and debris, dug a pond, and sold the Cat at a profit. Maine is known for its mud...... that was 20 years ago. All the roads had 2-3 foot ruts when they left.

[northwoods_forestry]

I think the "standard expectation" for close out is that, at a minimum, a logger should follow state regulations, BMP's, and mitigate all potential erosion issues. Most conscientious and knowledgeable loggers will price this in to the job as a matter of course realizing that these practices are necessary to protect the future health of the forest. All other considerations (such as slash height, blading of roads, landing debris, etc) that are more aesthetic need to be specified by the landowner before the job starts. If a logger neglects the minimum close-out items I've mentioned, the landowner should strenuously object even if not wrtitten into a contract or discussed before hand. The logger may not have the legal obligation (though this varies from state to state) to close-out properly, but they certainly have a moral obligation.

[SouthernSap]

Yes, if they don't even meet state regulations, then the landowner can easily hold them accountable for it if necessary. That could be the case for the original post, not sure.