Preheater question

[wvsugarshak]

I have and unused and a use A coil I was going to use as a preheater under my hood what problems does anyone seen in trying this? also on the used one is their a way to clean the inside of the copper since it had freon in it a one point or should just a good flushing do?

thanks for any and all thought on this

Wvsugarshak

[wiam]

Would you drink freon??

[wvsugarshak]

No. not unless it was maple flavor. Is the anyway to clean the piping to make it safe for preheater use?

[Paperman]

Would you drink freon??

Not really a good point. You would not drink liquid oxygen either but you breath it everyday. same with freon. Issue would be the oils in the system.

[wiam]

I personally do not drink liquid oxygen nor would I drink out of a pipe that had freon in it. My point is the Food Grade issues that keep coming up on this forum and some on here complain when regulations are discussed. If more were more careful about what they put sap/syrup in there would be less need for rules.

[Paperman]

I have no issue with people pointing out what is the beter option but at what point do we draw the line in the sand. The stainless sheets were rolled at a mil that uses oil on there stacks when forming the thin sheets we use. The welds are done (typicaly) with argon gas and are even welded with a radioactive electrode. Still we use the sheets that were covered in oil, a compressed gas and contacted a radioactive elemet but still use them safely after a good cleaning. My whole point is give a person an educated answer to what is the beast choice for them in their situation. Giving a smart *** answer by asking if they would drink freon is not giving them any quality information.

[talahi maple products]

Well put Paperman

[Ausable]

[QUOTE=wvsugarshak;166511]I have and unused and a use A coil I was going to use as a preheater under my hood what problems does anyone seen in trying this? also on the used one is their a way to clean the inside of the copper since it had freon in it a one point or should just a good flushing do?

thanks for any and all thought on this

Wvsugarshak[/QUOTE

Hey Wvsugarshak - Why not - Sounds like under the hood might work - I have a 2'x5' home-made arch and evaporator and hood and was trying to come up with something besides wrapping the stack with a coil for a preheater - I have heavy duty pans and was thinking of making a couple of wraps with tubing around them. Of course - around the stack - ya get heat a lot quicker - but - when ya first fire up everything is cold anyway. As far as the used coil that had freon gas going through it - the only bad rap I ever heard about Freon was from the Ozone depleation crowd - who eventually got Freon banned as a coolant in refrigeration. But - never heard any other bad things about the use of Freon - except from the folks that sold blocks of ice for ice boxes - they didn't like Freon either. Hey - all my chatter aside - We have folks from all walks of life on this site ----So---Maybe You will get a factual answer about any side effects from tubing that had Freon going thru it....Other than the Ozone issue - which has little bearing here.... Hey! best of Luck.

[seclark]

The design of an A coil is not a continuous flow like a hot water coil, plus there are to many places for oil or sap to get trapped as the tubing is a lot smaller in some places.The liquid or sap would have to be forced through with pressure to take advantage of all the loops and bends.I don't know what size your coil is but they usually have 2 different size's of tubing in and out. Look at the design closely and unless you modify it I don't think it will be worth the effort.A hot water coil would be better or make your own as a lot of others have done.

[3rdgen.maple]

Instead of guesses heres the MSDS on freon. You be the judge. I will safely pass thank you.

Health Hazard Data
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LD50-LC50 Mixture: DuPont's Freon (TM) "115" 800,000 PPM/"22"
220,000 PPM
Route Of Entry - Inhalation: YES
Route Of Entry - Skin: YES
Route Of Entry - Ingestion: NO
Health Haz Acute And Chronic: OVEREXPOS BY INHAL MAY INCLUDE
DISCOMFORT-NAUSEA/HEADACHE/WEAKNESS/TEMP NERV SYS DEPRESS
W/ANESTHETIC EFFECTS LIKE DIZZINESS/CONFUSION/INCOORDINATION/
LOSS OF CONSCIOUSNESS OR W/GROSS OVEREXPOS (>20%), POSS TEMP
ALTERATION OF THE HEART'S ELECTRICAL ACTIVITY W/IRREG PULSE/
PALPITATIONS/INADEQ CIRCULATION. MISUSE: DEATH.#
Carcinogenicity - NTP: NO
Carcinogenicity - IARC: NO
Carcinogenicity - OSHA: NO
Explanation Carcinogenicity: N/K #INDIVIDUALS W/PREEXISTING
DISEASES OF THE CENTRAL NERV/CARDIO SYS MAY HAVE INCREASED
SUSCEPTIBILITY TO ##
Signs/Symptoms Of Overexp: ##TOXICITY EXCESSIVE EXPOSURES.
CARDIAC SENSITIZATION WAS OBSERVED IN BEAGLE DOGS EXPOSED
TO CONCENTRATIONS OF 15% TO 25% "DuPont's Freon (TM)" 115.
VAPOR REDUCES OXYGEN AVAILABLE FOR BREATHING & IS HEAVIER
THAN AIR. SKIN CONTACT WITH THE LIQUID CAN CAUSE FROSTBITE.
"DuPont's Freon (TM)"
22-TOXICITY IN ANIMALS BY INHAL TO CONC RANGING FROM###
Med Cond Aggravated By Exp: N/K ###5 TO 70% INCLUDE
EFFECTS ON THE CENTRAL NERV SYS/LIVER/LUNGS/KIDNEYS/
SPLEEN/CARDIAC SENSITIZATION/DECREASED BODY WEIGHT GAIN
/PARTIAL ANESTHESIA. INCREASE OF TUMORS
IN MALE RATS AT CONC OF####
Emergency/First Aid Proc: INHAL: IMMED GET FRESH AIR. KEEP CALM.
IF BREATH STOP, GIVE ARTIF RESP/IF DIFFICULT, GIVE OXYGEN.
CALL DR. SKIN: CLEAN SKIN AFTER USE.
EYE: IMMED FLUSH W/WATER. CALL DR. "NOTES TO PHYSICIAN":
BECAUSE OF POSSIBLE DISTURBANCES OF CARDIAC RHYTHM,
CATECHOLAMINE DRUGS, SUCH AS EPINEPHRINE, SHOULD BE USED
WITH SPECIAL CAUTION ONLY IN SITUATIONS OF EMERGENCY
LIFE SUPPORT.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Precautions for Safe Handling and Use
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steps If Matl Released/Spill: REVIEW FIRE & EXPLOSION HAZARDS
& SAFETY PRECAUTIONS BEFORE PROCEEDING WITH CLEAN-UP. USE
APPROPRIATE PERSONALPROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT DURING CLEANING.
VENT AREA-ESPEC LOW PLACES WHERE HEAVY VAPORS MIGHT COLLECT.
RMV OPEN FLAMES. USE SCBA FOR LG SPILLS. Waste Disposal Method:
COMPLY WITH FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL REGULATIONS. REMOVE TO A
PERMITTED WASTE DISPOSAL FACILITY OR RECLAIM BY DISTILLATION.
Precautions-Handling/Storing: CLEAN, DRY AREA. DO NOT HEAT ABOVE
125 DEGREES F.
Other Precautions: N/K ####50,000 PPM. SLIGHT BUT SIGNIFICANT
INCREASE IN DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY (EYE MALFORMATIONS, DECREASED
FETAL WEIGHTS) OBSERVED IN OFFSPRING OF RATS EXPOSED TO HIGH
CONC (50,000 PPM) OF FC-22. HOWEVER NO INDICATION OF
ADVERSE#####
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Control Measures
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ventilation: NORM VENT-GEN ADEQ. LOCAL EXHAUST SHOULD BE USED
WHEN LARGE AMOUNTS ARE RELEASED. MECH VENT SHOULD BE USED IN
LOW PLACES
Protective Gloves: NEOPRENE RUBBER GLOVES.
Eye Protection: CHEMICAL SPLASH GOGGLES.
Other Protective Equipment: SELF-CONTAINED BREATHING APPARATUS
IS REQUIRED
IF A SPILL OR RELEASE OCCURS.
Suppl. Safety & Health Data: #####EFFECTS ON FEMALE REPRODUCTIVE
PERFORMANCE AT CONCENTRATIONS UP TO 50,000 PPM

[Ausable]

Thank You Sir - I'm convinced - Freon is not a good ingredient of Maple Syrup - Was hoping someone could answer that question-------Mike----

[RileySugarbush]

Excerpts from MSDS of Milkstone Remover


Texas Correctional Industry

A division of the
Texas Department of Criminal Justice
Date Issued: November 2007Supersedes: September 2007
SECTION 1 - PRODUCT AND COMPANY IDENTIFICATION



file:///page1image28416
Product Name: Milkstone Remover
General Use: Lime Deposit RemoverManufacturer Name: Texas Correctional Industry
Soap & Detergent PlantOne Circle Drive
Sugar Land, Texas 77478
SECTION 2 - HAZARDOUS INGREDIENT
N/A= Not Applicable N/D = Not Determined



MILKSTONE REMOVER


Emergency Telephone Numbers
Galveston Texas Poison Control: 1-800-764-7661Soap & Detergent Plant Lab: 281-490-1111MSDS available at: www.tci.tdcj.state.tx.usMonday thru Thursday: 7 a.m. - 3 p.m.



Hydroxyacetic Acid


*Phosphoric Acid



: Clear light green liquid, mild odor


SECTION 6 - HEALTH HAZARD

: Oxides of Carbon and Sulfur
: Stable
: Alkaline materials and Oxidizing Agents


Primary Route of Exposure
Signs and Symptoms of Over Exposure (acute)


Eyes :Skin :Ingestion :Inhalation :

Corrosive to Eye tissue, may cause corneal damage
May cause redness or rash, burns or blisters
May cause gastrointestinal irritation and burns to the alimentary canalMay be an irritant to the respiratory tract


Signs and Symptoms of Over Exposure (chronic)Medical condition aggravated by over exposureCarcinogen or suspect of carcinogen ingredients

: Eye, skin, and respiratory tract irritation: Not known
: None


: Eyes, Skin, Oral, or Inhalation


file:///page2image11464
SECTION 7 - EMERGENCY AND FIRST AID PROCEDURE


Eyes :Skin :Ingestion :Inhalation :

Immediately flush eyes with plenty of water for at least 15 min. If irritation persists, get medical attention.
Flush with copious amounts of water. Remove contaminated clothing and seek medical attention if irritation persists.Rinse mouth thoroughly and drink plenty of water. Do not induce vomiting unless directed by physician.
Move person to fresh air if irritation, headache, drowsiness, or nausea occurs. Seek medical attention if breathingbecomes difficult or if any irritation should persist.


file:///page2image17232
SECTION 8 - SPECIAL PROTECTION INFORMATION


Respiratory ProtectionVentilation RequirementProtective Gloves
Eye Protection

: None required with normal use
: Local exhaust. Maintain adequate ventilation: Yes. Rubber or neoprene
: Chemical goggles


file:///page2image20616
file:///page2image20888
SECTION 9 - SPILL OR LEAK PROCEDURES
Steps to be taken if released or spilled : Gather all liquid material practical for salvage or disposal. Rinse residue with water.Waste disposal method : Any unsalvageable material must be disposed in compliance with local, state, andfederal laws and regulations. Do not dump into sewers, on the ground, or into any
bodies of water.
SECTION 10 - STORAGE AND HANDLING
Store in a cool dry area. Protect this product from freezing. Keep out of the reach of children. IMPORTANT! Product use is notrecommended until this Material Safety Data Sheet has been read and understood.

[KenWP]

Somebody should post the MSDS for a aspirin also it would scare people also.I found some back flow valves that make it possible to use a coil with out it vapour locking.You put one on the top where the cold sap enters and it can only flow into the pan when it heats.

[Teuchtar]

If this coil is what I'm thinking of, it contains many small fins. Normally the preheaters are plain copper or stainless tubes. The heat transfer mode in the steam hood is primarily by condensing saturated vapour of the steam. The natural rate of this heat transfer is already so fast in condensing steam, that you don't need any fins on the tube surface. On the other hand, when you are transferring heat to air, the heat transfer rate is really slow because of the air viscosity, low density, and poor conduction rate. So fins are added to present a large surface area to the air. I think you'll find that plain copper pipe, length as suggested in the UVM Reference will work like a champ.
Additionally, when your pan inevitably foams over, I bet you'll find plain tubing much easer to clean than fins.
But of course, as we always say on the Trader, give it a try, and let us know how you make out !
Good Luck.

UVM preheater reference: http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmaple/sappreheaters.pdf

[wvsugarshak]

hey thanks for all the great comments Think I will stick to the copper pipe.

thanks again

wv Sugarshak