Leader Check Valve Spout Adapter

[wildoats]

Anyone have any experience with the new leader Check Valve Spout Adapter. http://www.leaderevaporator.com/p-58-leader-check-valve-spout-adapter.aspx
Are these designed just for vacuum systems or would they also benefit a gravity system.
Thanks for your input.

[Jec]

I used them on gravity last year. The normal taps stopped about mid march. We did a test and the CV's didn't really stop until april. So they would have lenthened our season if the sap stayed cold. Were going to use them on almost all of our taps.

[SWEETER CREATIONS]

We tried 500 the first year and now have gone through the whole sugarbush with all of them . Around 1000 sap was about 20 gallons per tap with cv and around 11 without.In my oppinion they are worth the money !!

[Bruce L]

We tried one section of one bush last year(one tank) our vacuum was much higher,that tank always had much more sap even though it was much lower in taps.This year,all pipeline is going to be check valves.
Bruce

[wildoats]

Just curious if the benefit you have seen is on gravity or vacuum.
thanks

[Bruce L]

Ours is vacuum,but we shut the pump off at night,so the sap would also flow in on it's own

[wildoats]

Just out of curiosity are you using gravity or a vacuum system.
thanks

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I believe Cornell has done some work with check valves in a gravity system and found some benefit.

[nymapleguy607]

I used some last year and I wasn't impressed. The theory is good but there are some problems, the fingers that hold the ball in place seemed to gum up and towards the end of the season the ball wouldn't close. This year I'm trying some polycarbonate spouts from CDL to see how they work, the nice part is that they cost 17cents a piece where Leader gets around 35 cents a piece. For a gravity system I believe Cornell found that replacing the tap and dropline gave the best benefit.

[rchase]

i heard they where having trouble with sawdust from the tap getting in the check valve.

[DrTimPerkins]

Not that I've heard or experienced. However like several issues with this spout, this problem was reported BEFORE the CV adapters actually came out.

[KenWP]

Problem I found was nobody sells them around here. Would like to see one let alone buy any but you have to order them to get them.

[DrTimPerkins]

Both Lapierre and D&G carry them (at least in the U.S.).

[maple flats]

Yes, Leader, D&G and Lapierre all carry them. Leader makes them. I use them on all of my taps on Vacuum. One year I used them on gravity and was not convinced they helped any, but they sure do on vacuum (which is what they were designed for)

[DrTimPerkins]

Yes, Leader, D&G and Lapierre all carry them. Leader makes them. I use them on all of my taps on Vacuum. One year I used them on gravity and was not convinced they helped any, but they sure do on vacuum (which is what they were designed for)

Dave is correct....the CV spout adapter was designed for vacuum. We have never tested them with gravity. Cornell (Steve Childs) has done those comparisons however, and found significant positive results (47% increase in 2010, 81% increase in 2011 with new CV on old drops when compared to old spouts on old drops), although the sap yield gain in absolute terms (total additional # of gallons) is lower on gravity systems (since yields on gravity are naturally lower). The calculations we have done indicate that the economic gains (net profit per tap) using CV adapters on gravity are therefore smaller, but typically still positive. Basically as long as you get 0.75-1.0 gal of sap more using CV adapters, you at least break even. If you get more than that, your profit margin increases. In a poor sap year (like 2010) you may break even or a little better. In a good sap year (like 2011) we'd expect you to make a reasonable profit on gravity systems (and a healthy profit on vacuum) if you use CV adapters. Obviously all systems are different, so it is impossible to tell for sure, although we are working to develop a model to predict increases in sap yield expected with different types of equipment and management changes (replacing spouts, drops, using CV adapters, vacuum, style of pump and pump management, releaser type).

Larger increases in yield can definitely be had by either by switching to vacuum or by replacing spouts and drops (EACH YEAR), but these are considerably more costly and labor intensive. In the long-run, switching to vacuum has the greatest overall effect, but CV adapters have a larger effect on vacuum, so you'll get a significant gain (in terms of yield or profit) when using them on vacuum as compared to something like old drops/spouts, replacing drops and spouts annually, or even simply replacing spouts annually.

[spud]

Dr. Tim

As you know i am already sold on your CVs. Although this next season will be my first in 20+ years i do have all brand new tubing in my woods. Would i benefit from using the CVs the first year even know everything is new? Would i have a better chance of extending my sap season? I am looking for as much sap as possible and do plan on tapping a little early this year. I have read your reports on When to tap and there seems to be no negative affects to tapping early (mid January ) using CVs. Thanks.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

On a totally new tubing system, the benefits of using a CV adapter are minimal, although it depends upon several other factors as well, particularly the type of releaser you're using, your vacuum management strategy, and how the season progresses (the longer it is the more benefit you'll see). Regardless, the CV adapter will help somewhat, but it may be only a very slight effect.

Tapping early generally doesn't have much of a negative impact as long as you are using new spouts, and even less impact using CV adapters. You should be prepared to capture and process any early runs if you tap early though. If you're using older used spouts, tap as close to the actual start of the season as you possibly can.

Congrats on your new tubing system.....you should be very happy with your production yield this coming year (barring any major catastrophes).

[Greenwich Maple Man]

So am wondering what peoples expierence is with the CV'S versus the clear Tomahawk spout from Lap. The CV's are expensive and am wondering if they truly produce more sap or if it is from changing to a new spout each year. Has anybody used the clear spout from Lap.? I'm talking about the one with the elbow in it. Also any feedback on the Smart Spout from CDL?

[ennismaple]

So am wondering what peoples expierence is with the CV'S versus the clear Tomahawk spout from Lap. The CV's are expensive and am wondering if they truly produce more sap or if it is from changing to a new spout each year. Has anybody used the clear spout from Lap.? I'm talking about the one with the elbow in it. Also any feedback on the Smart Spout from CDL?

We used both last year on separate bushes that were connected to the same vacuum pump. The CV's were in a much older bush, parts of which had been tapped for 50+ years. The Lapierre seasonal elbow (Tomahawk) spouts we used in a bush that had only been tapped for 4 years. The Tomahawks slightly outperformed the CV's but that was expected because the newer woods should outperform woods where it's hard to find new wood to tap. The Lapierre elbow spouts are slower to tap than a CV and stubby but they generally "grip" the taphole better and don't need re-seating as often. I don't like that you need to cut the old elbow spout off every year - shortening the dropline by 1/2" to 1" per year.

Both have their pluses and minuses so we're doing the same comparison again this year.

[adk1]

I picked up the CV's and I not even using vac. Just figured with everything new why not start with them

[markcasper]

If you're using older used spouts, tap as close to the actual start of the season as you possibly can.
.

Are you meaning the stubbies which receive the CV's as well? Or just someone using old spouts without any adaptor?I am assuming the latter.

[DrTimPerkins]

Are you meaning the stubbies which receive the CV's as well? Or just someone using old spouts without any adaptor?I am assuming the latter.

Correct....the latter. Stated another way...If you are NOT replacing spouts each year, you should tap as close to the start of the season as you can. If you are using a new spout each year, this is less critical. If you are using CV spouts, it is even less important (within reason...don't tap in November).

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Correct....the latter. Stated another way...If you are NOT replacing spouts each year, you should tap as close to the start of the season as you can. If you are using a new spout each year, this is less critical. If you are using CV spouts, it is even less important (within reason...don't tap in November).

Would changing just the CV not the stubby be good enough each year? I like the thought on the CV but they are quite a bit more $ than the Lap. Tomahawk. However if they will produce more then I will gladly use them. I had a coversation with large producer who is a dealer for Leader , in Rupert VT. last night and he is 100% sold on them. So I guess the question is how much more sap are the test showing you will get when running between 18 and 20 in. of vacuum?

[adk1]

I am using the CV's even on my first year with all new tubing and spouts etc that is because I hope that it will start off reducing any problems?

[DrTimPerkins]

You don't need to change the stubby each year.

The benefit of using CV spout adapters varies depending upon a number of factors. If your tubing is totally new, the benefit of using them is marginal (because there are essentially very few microbes in the tubing system) and it is probably not economically worth using them (although there is a possible small gain from another mechanism). As your tubing system ages (even if it is washed), the amount of microbes in the sytem increases, and thus the benefit of using CV spout adapters gets larger. Sap yield drops about 15% after the first year of use, and drops another 10-12% the next year, then about 8-10%....after about 6 yrs, your sap yield is about 65% of what it was the first year. By 10 yrs, the system is producing only about 55% of what a new system would.

If you replace just your spouts, you will improve yield by about 10-15%. If you use CV adapters, you'll improve it even more, and it becomes economical to do so in the 2nd or 3rd year.

So why can't CV adapters increase sap yield by huge amounts in every tubing system. Well...if your tubing (or drops) are only 1 yr old, there is only a theoretical improvement of about 15% that is possible. In 2 yr old tubing, there is only about a 25% improvement possible. As the tubing gets even older, the possible improvement gets larger and larger. And...other things affect it as well, vacuum vs gravity, level of vacuum, type of releaser, vacuum management, etc. However in general, when a system is more than a few yrs old, research has shown that it is economically beneficial (you get a net profit increase) for producers to use new spouts (lower net profit) or CV spouts (higher net profits). Replacing droplines will achieve somewhat higher total sap yields, however you don't reach a net profit until about 3-4 yrs (if you don't count the labor of making and installing the drops) or 4-6 yrs (if you do include your labor or have to pay someone else to make and install them).

So if you average all the studies done by UVM and Cornell (about 27 comparisons in all), across a wide variety of tubing ages, the net profit (income minus expense of materials only) of using different tap sanitation approaches is:
- New adapters = $1.02 net profit per tap
- New droplines = $2.55 net profit per tap (minus the expense of making and installing the new drops, and removing and disposing of old drops)
- CV spout adapters = $3.06 net profit per tap

Therefore, in general, although a new adapter costs a lot less, it'll also tend to only produce about 1/3 the net profit of a CV.

5100

[Sunday Rock Maple]

These are annual numbers or over the length of the study? If annual, that $3.06 is a very attractive ROI.....

[wiam]

It seems that most people are too cheap to get the big picture. It takes very little maple syrup to make $3.06 but wow having to spend $.35. Now that is a deal breaker.:rolleyes:

[Greenwich Maple Man]

It seems that most people are too cheap to get the big picture. It takes very little maple syrup to make $3.06 but wow having to spend $.35. Now that is a deal breaker.:rolleyes:

The only way to get the "big picture" is to do the homework and figure if the cost balance themselves. That is only good busniness practice .$0.35 is not alot but figure it for a a couple of thousand taps and you are now looking at $700.00 not a meager $0.35. Plus you have to figure the cost of the stubby spout $0.29 plus the CV for a total of $0.64. To buy just a seasonal spout is $0.17 so now you are looking at making up the difference of $0.47 not $0.35. That is the big picture. It does appear that the CV's are worth the extra cost . But how would you know that if you don't ask the right questions?

[DrTimPerkins]

These are annual numbers or over the length of the study? If annual, that $3.06 is a very attractive ROI.....

The numbers I cited are AVERAGE NET ANNUAL INCREASE IN PROFIT PER TAP (after material expense is taken out, not counting labor) for each of those different types of technologies (changing spouts, changing drops, using CV adapters) across 27 (as I recall) different studies done over 4 years at UVM and Cornell.

[Ecnerwal]

Dr. Perkins,

Since you redirected the sanitation question in the 8-10" tree thread here, and since I'm darned if I can find this "basic knowledge everyone knows" among the array of very nice research papers and bulletins you folks put out, could your point me at something describing the entire proper procedures for sanitary tapping, other than new check-valve spouts (I wonder if stainless check-valve spouts that could be boiled would make any sense in the long-term, too, but disposable rules the market, I'm sure.)

I have been out of the game a long time, and am quite happy to benefit from improvements in procedures.

ie, I used to take a #7 bit, put it in a brace, walk into the woods, and drill holes in trees, putting clean (but hardly sterile) taps in holes. I did not do anything particular to sanitize the the drill bit, or the tree. I certainly drilled through some lichen on some trees.

I've read enough to know that I would now be using a #4 or #5 bit, I'm still far more likely to use the brace than drag a heavy battery or gasoline motor (personal preference), and I should be concerned with keeping things clean, and not drill too deep. Should I bring along a spray bottle of alcohol and act like I'm a doctor giving the tree a shot? Should I boil the drill bit, or dip it in alcohol or something? Start a 7/16" starter hole into the bark, stop before the cambium, sanitize that starting hole, then drill the small tap hole into the tree? Drill the small hole into the bark, stop, sanitize the bit and hole, then drill into the wood? Scrape the bark before starting the hole?

As you might guess by now, I can think up all sorts of ways one might try to keep the hole sanitary, but I'm not sure what the current best practices actually are - and the discussion has focussed more on the tap/tubing than the hole thus far...probably because it's old news to all of you. Pardon my ignorance, I'm trying to cure it.

[wiam]

The only way to get the "big picture" is to do the homework and figure if the cost balance themselves. That is only good busniness practice .$0.35 is not alot but figure it for a a couple of thousand taps and you are now looking at $700.00 not a meager $0.35. Plus you have to figure the cost of the stubby spout $0.29 plus the CV for a total of $0.64. To buy just a seasonal spout is $0.17 so now you are looking at making up the difference of $0.47 not $0.35. That is the big picture. It does appear that the CV's are worth the extra cost . But how would you know that if you don't ask the right questions?

Well the stubby should be figured over many years because it is not a one time use and the the check valve can make alot more sap then a seasonal, so are you wondering if the other $0.18 is worth it? In my mind if I can spend $350 on my 1000 taps and have a potential pay back of over $3000 that is the big picture.

[DrTimPerkins]

...describing the entire proper procedures for sanitary tapping, other than new check-valve spouts (I wonder if stainless check-valve spouts that could be boiled would make any sense in the long-term, too, but disposable rules the market, I'm sure.)

Instructions for tapping come with each bag of CV spouts. You should check with the specific manufacturer/dealer of different spouts for their specific procedures. In general however, you drill the hole (using a good sharp bit) at a slight upward angle (towards the center of the tree), insert the spout, and tap it in. If it is a one-piece, you then connect the tubing to it. If it is a 2-piece (stubby and adapter), after tapping in the spout, you align the stubby with the spout adapter in the tree, push it on and then lightly tap it to seat it.

DO NOT USE ANY SANITIZER IN THE TAPHOLE.

No, you don't do a starter hole, then clean, then do another hole. Yes, there are probably a lot of things one could do to make the tapping procedure more sanitary, but in general, they would all prove to be too slow to be practical.

Given that there is no stainless CV spout, the question is moot. However, despite considerable measures to clean spouts/tubing, they simply will not yield as good as a new piece of plastic. You can improve the performance of older spouts somewhat by cleaning (and we've tried bleach, boiling, hydrogen peroxide, alcohol, water), but they simply don't appear to produce as much sap as a new spout, and the studies have show quite convincingly that it is economically advantageous to replace spouts each year. Perhaps we just don't yet know how to clean spouts properly...I don't think that is the case though.

[rchase]

does the bactria actually go into the plastic? is that why you can kill it with any cleaning methods?

[Sunday Rock Maple]

To paraphrase "27 studies at 2 places over 4 years showed a $3 per tap net."

Great results backed by rigor and data --- thanks!!!!

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Whoops -- I should've added per year....

[DrTimPerkins]

does the bactria actually go into the plastic? is that why you can kill it with any cleaning methods?

Plastic is somewhat porous, but it is more that the bacteria form biofilms that are almost impossible to dislodge, and the bacteria are protected and harbored in the biofilm.

[Tom_saw]

Could spouts be sterilized in a microwave ?

[gmcooper]

Could spouts be sterilized in a microwave ?

Short answer is NO. If you melted them into a pile of goo, maybe.

[adk1]

I am on gravity and this is my first year. So that means all new everything. I am also using the CV adapters, even though it is my first year. Probably dont need to, but, was planning on it for the second year anyways. Could ahve gone jsut with the straight adapter dwon to 5/16" but just like the idea of the CV's.

[michiganfarmer2]

The only way to get the "big picture" is to do the homework and figure if the cost balance themselves. That is only good busniness practice .$0.35 is not alot but figure it for a a couple of thousand taps and you are now looking at $700.00 not a meager $0.35. Plus you have to figure the cost of the stubby spout $0.29 plus the CV for a total of $0.64. To buy just a seasonal spout is $0.17 so now you are looking at making up the difference of $0.47 not $0.35. That is the big picture. It does appear that the CV's are worth the extra cost . But how would you know that if you don't ask the right questions?my understanding is the CV will fit in the old blue plastic spile.You dont have to buy the stubbies

[oneoldsap]

I cannot begin to fathom how a check valve spout would benefit a gravity system ! If I had to run a gravity system it would get plain old 7/16 spouts .

[batsofbedlam]

When the tree cools down and the sap stops running, it will be reabsorbed by the tree if you use tubing. The tree will build negative pressure and suck the sap back into the tree. That won't happen if you use CV's.

[Starting Small]

So when the tree reabsorbes sap from the tubing are we talking a few ounces of sap, a few drops or something like a half gallon? I understand that it does not take much bacteria to "infect" the hole, but I am wondering if it is a bacteria and production issue or just a bacteria issue?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

It is a production issue too. The big benefit is reduced bacteria but a tree can create its own vacuum. A drop line into a 5 gallon bucket that is below the surface of the sap may show a loss of several quarts back into the tree.