sap ladders

[highlandcattle]

Does anyone know how many taps one sap ladder can handle? This stuff is all new to us.

[red maples]

It depends on what type. seems there mixed feeling on what they can handle, but I think if your using a 6 star fitting it is generally 10 taps per tube so it would be 60 taps. you can put more in line for more taps as well. I think I have heard other people say less or more. I have 35 taps on a 6 star lift that is 5 feet and it works fine!!! I also have a 2 pipe lift that is about 7 feet and that lifts about 280 taps. SO depending on your set up and mainline size there s no limit to the amount of taps you can lift as long as its set up right... hope that helps.

[adk1]

Less than 6 months to go! I better get going!

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Red Maples,

I'm very interested in the two-pipe ladder concept as I need to lift 200 taps about 11 feet (maybe three stars if I go that way?). What diameter pipe did you use and do you have two valves (one in a line and another to bleed air in)?

PS: I went to your web site to check for pictures --- what a great shanty!

[tuckermtn]

I built a two pipe system off some designs on here. I think Sapman had some photos and the published research I think from Cornell (or was it Ontario) had some photos as well. Really easy to do. much cheaper than the star fitting ladders for higher tap counts.

[3rdgen.maple]

I would consier two shorter lifts than one 11 foot lift.

[maple flats]

I would also do 2 lifts, maybe even 6' each if in fact 11' is what you need total. I have only used 1 and 2 pipe systems. To make one in 3/4" (I think that was what you had if I remember right) just put a tee into the side outlet, then 3-4" out each side, an elbow straight up and do the same at the top and go back to 1 tube of 3/4". Official directions suggest a ball valve in one to regulate the flow as related to sap flow. I will never make one again without a ball valve in each, so I can totally clean out the sap from both sides at the end of the season. Even if you have 1" do the same but make the tee a bull head tee (1" out the side and 3/4 out each end) do the lift using the 2 smaller tubings and then rejoin them and proceed with 1". Do not provide for an air inlet to help lift, it is not needed and everything upstream then has less vac. Using this method you can lift the full # of taps for whichever size you have. Check a leader catalog for a chart showing # of taps on any size tubing. I have 2 ladders of the type described and one that is just 1 pipe. That lift only has about 75 taps and is only about 3' lift. It works great.
Realize that any sap ladder uses up vacuum, but the pump you have will easily handle some sap ladders with your system, even after you max that woods.
Good luck,
Dave

[Gary R]

Go to this thread on the trader.

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?7269-comparing-sap-ladder-types

I would stay with one lift. The sap doesn't lift unless the bottom is full. When the bottom is full you impede vacuum beyond the lift. Two lifts equal two impediments. You do need enough vacuum to make this work well.

[red maples]

I would just go one ladder you will loose less vacuum. Reguardless of size you will loose just about an inch of vac per ladder. you kinda have to play with the air leak to get it tweeked just right for max lift with the least amount of vac loss. I made some adjustments to mine I found that there is almost one side that gets favored don't know why so what happens is that when the sap shoots up it can go straight across and down the other tube so what I did was to use PVC and, everything is 1" by the way, and took a pvc gutter conector because it has flat side cut out a section and glued into the slot so that when the sap came up it would go right down instead of across it was so much more effiecient I notice the same thing happens with the 6 star because the sap can go straight across the the other side and back down doesn't make much sence to me. you could also use more 90's for the top so you don't have that straight across run for the sap to go to the other side. Russ lampron has a great pick in photobucket let me go see if I can get a link make it easier. BRB I will also take a picute and post it but I have to charge the batteries in my camera.

I based mine of his and I also bought Amber golds old ladder and just modified it to fit mine. because I wanted it to be made out of 30p so I could see the sap working in it. I have 2 valves in mine one on each side + a vacuum leak valve.

I will using mine only for emergency this coming season, ther is always a threat of flooding the swamp which I am right against especially in the spring. So I am bypassing it this year and setting things up lower. and if it floods then I can just move the releaser up to the plattform and keep pumping so no sap loss like 2 years ago!!! with 150 gallons sap lost from contaminaion with swamp water and waiting for the water to go down. you do loose some sap with the ladder.

here is Russ's photobucket.
http://s250.photobucket.com/albums/gg247/russhd1997/SP%2022%20and%20Lines/?action=view&current=100_0277.jpg#!oZZ9QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2F s250.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg247%2Frusshd1997 %2FSP%252022%2520and%2520Lines%2F%3Faction%3Dview% 26current%3D100_0279.jpg

[3rdgen.maple]

Well I guess you have more than one choice now lol. I can tell you this much for certian. We debated the heck out of the having a vac relief valve setup for a sap ladder I think it came across pretty much 50/50. So myself and a couple others did a little experimenting to see what indeed worked best and not based on visual effect but by timing releaser dumps. Here is or was my conclusion. Opening the valve to allow some air into the system made the ladder look like the sap was shooting up the ladder much faster, so I timed the releaser dumps. I then proceeded to close the valve of and allowing max vac back into the line. Visually it looked like the sap was shooting up the ladder much slower but the releaser timing of the dumps almost doubled. I was amazed at the difference. I played around with this a few times and the amount of air I would let in the system. With a vac guage at the farthest end of the line just losing 1 inch of hg hurts more than you would think. Closing the valve not only got sap to the releaser quicker I lost no vac from the guage on the releaser and the guage on the end of the line. Take this for what you want but I will never introduce air into a system again. Its lossed money. Also a 11 foot lift is a high one and I would be putting in 2 ladders myself spread them apart as much as possible and you should have no problems.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

3rd gen is dead on. Why would we spend all our time looking for leaks and then introduce one? as far as numbers, err on the conservative side if using star ladders. The more tubes available, the better the vacuum transfer past the ladder. I try for no more than 25 taps per 6 star fitting. I also concur on the use of 2 ladder for the 11 foot lift. I find very little vacuum loss with ladders. 2 six foot ladders are easier to work on and I believe more efficient than a single 11 foot ladder.

[nymapleguy607]

The biggest thing is make sure you have enough vacuum at the ladder to lift the sap the distance you want to lift. I believe the rule of thumb is 1"Hg per ft of lift. I tried using two star laders once and ended up taking them out the next season. I believe my vacuum was around 8" after the second ladder.

[3rdgen.maple]

nymaple has it right also 1 in hg for 1 foot of lift. vac guage at end of the line to tweek things for max vac helps you determine if things are good or could be better.

[red maples]

when I didn't introduce a vac leak my sap just sat in the line and didn't move??? and gauge was reading 25 hg same happened with star lift sap just sat there??? even with vac leak introduced I am still pulling 23-24hg at the releaser and about 22hg at the end. I have a pretty tight system. its only 2 years old. this will be the 3rd year coming up. so I will still be able to experiment with it next year, even though it will only be used for emergencies if at all. hopefully I won't need it.

[3rdgen.maple]

Red I know what you are saying visually it looked the same way to me as that is how I first setup my ladders. Man just watching that sap shoot up I was amazed. It wasnt until that thread came up I started experimenting. I couldnt argue my point then when I hadnt personally tested it and glad I didnt cause I was wrong anyways. Next spring time you releaser dumps experimenting with the amount of air you let in and then without letting any in. Only you can determine what or how you like it all I can say for me when I shut the valve off and watched what looked like sap slowly rising and I mean slow to the top of the ladder and then it looked like it didnt move at all I was amazed at watching the releaser almost double in the amount it was dumping. What suprised me even more was I was still holding vac levels at the end of the mainline. I wish I tested it in the begining of the season and not in the middle. That valve will never open again on mine.

[Beweller]

Install the air bleed valve. It should be a needle valve. At vacuum, even a pin hole can be a big leak.

Install a vacuum gage at the base/upstream of the ladder. With sap flowing adjust the bleed valve to obtain the highest vacuum. If this occurs with the valve closed, start checking for leaks up-stream.

The optimum setting changes with sap flow: more sap, more bleed air. But the ladder is self adjusting in that it will work--lift sap--provided some air/gas is flowing with the sap.

By "work", I mean a loss of less than 1 inch per foot of lift.

Regarding timing the releaser: remember, what goes in must come out (or stay there), and the reverse is also true.

[3rdgen.maple]

I am confused at everything you just posted, sorry dont mean to offend anyone I just dont get it. You say to install a bleed valve and then adjust it for the highest vac. Well the highest vac would be with no bleed valve open so why put one on? If you want more sap you need less leaks in the system adding a leak reduces your vac level decreasing your sap intake. If you time a releaser and its dumping more then you are getting more sap.

[red maples]

I second that!!! I will give it a try and experiment a little, did it work work good under low sap flows too???