Vacuum setup on steep hill

[SevenCreeksSap]

Went out this morning to start eliminating squirrel issues( got 3) for my planned tubing setup and also mentally mapping out our bush. Found I have more Maples than I knew about. Thats good news to me. Here's my story and plan.

We got the property after it had been logged and the biggest Maple I've found is about 22 In. dbh. I have many between 15 and 20 in., and many more 10-15 inches. I'm planning on 80-100 taps this year. finding 100 trees will not be a problem.

We're in the Appalachian foothills by the Ohio river so the whole property is hill side. some is actually cliff that I cant walk up. rock face. Scenic. The rest is walkable but I only ever want to do it once a day. There are logging trails for access but those are steep too and with snow we don't want to try to drive up them. So I'm thinking natural gravity, not ready for Vac yet.

A lot of the nicer trees are about 500-600 feet from the gathering spot I have in mind.My hard working wonderful wife will be collecting sap a lot of the time in a Rhino, and she ain't walking buckets down to the sap shack.

Here's where I need input. I want to go with 5/16 for the whole setup because I've read here about the natural vacuum. I can easily put 20-25 per line. My biggest question is can you put more than that on one line, or do you reach a piont of diminishing returns because of tube size? Can you use 5/16 as a mainline with multiple branches running into it? I guess see thisetup like a map with streams flowing to creeks flowing to a river.

Another Idea I have is to run these " mainlines" into a barrel set up on a level spot that is about 200 ft up the hill like a dump station, but having a free flowing 3/4 or 1" black water line out of that with a spigot at the bottom for her to just turn on to empty into the Rhino tank. I'm thinking then less lats into my "mainline" up the hill and still control from the bottom.

Since this is my first time with tubing I dont think I'm ready to run the whole real mainline setup yet, and may end up taking all this down in the spring. I'm still going to be cutting paths end lots of wood to clean up. This place is a mess, but a beautiful mess. Thanks in advance for any input.

[maple flats]

On real steep slopes you can go more than 25 on a 5/16 line. I have heard of 30 and 35 taps. If you do my thought is that you should have a good drop after the lowest tap. If you tap a steep section but then tap a few more on level ground at the bottom, those last trees have pressure on them rather than natural vacuum. To see this, tap a bunch on a steep slope and after it levels out pull a tap. If the sap is running you will have sap shoot out the removed tap. This shows that pressure is on the tap, not natural vacuum.

[Maple Hobo]

Plan ahead and expand more later, without rebuilding the system. Invest in a 1" main line if you can. Don't run it too steep or it can vapor lock. If you plan it well now, a vacuum will be simple to add and can double your water collected.

Start at the high point of your low point... that being the top of your collection tank. Its a pain in the butt to raise the system up AFTER your've installed it so plan ahead. If you plan on adding vacuum in the future you need the height of the releasor designed into the slope of your main line. Don't use the vacuum to suck sap uphill if at all possible. This disrupts you vacuum and reduces your draw pressure at the taps. Even the sap ladders cut into your line pressure quite a bit. So look at how tall your collection tank is and add on the releasor height you plan to use later. Remember to unclude the 2x4 or what ever your going to mount the releasor onto. Side releasors sit lower then bottom releasors too...

Once you've installed the support wires and tie wired the mains/laterals to them.... you won't want to have to take them down again...lol Its a lot of work and the payoff is NOT taking it down all the time just removing the taps.

Try to design the main/lateral so it doesn't run full and it keeps an air space over the flowing sap with a few spashes and turbulant junctions like 90 degree connections. The lines can breath then and vacuum will work better later. You can add a second 1" line above the main line later if the steepest parts are disrupting the vacuum bubble.

Try to not put over 15 taps on 100 lineal feet of sap line into the main/laterals. Splices etc add into that count. (friction/restriction) When you go to vacuum you will ba able to put a gauge on the lines to test the vacuum and see the pressure loss.

Vacuum system tap layout is a bit different too. Assume a 16" radius of draw on vacuum VS the gravity spacing as shown in most maple books and tapping desciptions. That means the you need less taps under vacuum.

(Huh?) Think about it like this... Draw a 24" circle think tree. Now draw a 16" RADIUS circle centered 1" inside (tap hole) the line of the 24" one. The draw radius covers 3/4 of the tree. A second tap on the other side overlaps the draw radius... that means you'll get less water per tap. Its it worth the extra tap and friction on the tubing? Or would it be more cost effective to add a second tree? If you have 2 taps on a 16" tree your really not helping yourself - IMHO.

I reduced large trees with over 5 taps on them down to 2 or 3 and we still get more water then they did before, under the same vacuum. That also let me add more trees from the reclaimed taps.

Back on the support cables for the mains... You don't need to get full tension from the ratchet, use side tie wires to trees to make the mains and laterals hover... try to NOT nail them into the sides of the trees if you can.... they will swag if you do. They also seem to thaw out sooner in the day without the mass of a tree against them.

I recoment you pass the sap lines around the trees without nailing them too. Use a end loop or only one nail at the end. Sort of like running a shoe lace between your fingers. It keeps the line from swaging too unless you let it get too loose and hang from the taps. This also keeps the 3-ways from growing into the trees or nails in trees.

If you use the end loops with the hook on them instead of the hole for a slip ring you can unhook them and drop the lines to work in that area or roll them back up to the main/latera lines for the off season. Just remember what trees and what side you pass the line on... Spray paint might help?

You can unstall quick disconnects into the main line without leaks if you need to cross an access road into the sugar bush. Plan ahead with enough length on the ratchest and hooks so you can reconnect it later though.

Hmmm. Thats some things I found I wish I knew before I tired some things in the woods, hope it helps you. Let me know if you want any other thoughts about this...lol

DISCLAIMER: All thoughts and ideas expressed here are based on my opinions and experience, others results and ideas will vary. Do your own research and draw your own conclusions. ;-)

[DrTimPerkins]

Here's where I need input. I want to go with 5/16 for the whole setup because I've read here about the natural vacuum. I can easily put 20-25 per line. My biggest question is can you put more than that on one line, or do you reach a piont of diminishing returns because of tube size? Can you use 5/16 as a mainline with multiple branches running into it? I guess see thisetup like a map with streams flowing to creeks flowing to a river.

Bad idea. Having that many taps branching into one single 5/16" line will create a lot of restriction. When you think of small brooks merging into streams merging into rivers....they get bigger when they merge...they don't stay the same size. Same thing in a tubing system. You need to have bigger lines when sap streams merge.

[SevenCreeksSap]

Thanks for the ideas, no disclaimers needed.

Let me see if I'm thinking right on the natural vacuum. I've never studied fluid hydraulics,but I have siphoned water and the tube needs to be full and the drain needs to flow down. with the sap It seems like the benefit would occur when the line gets full of sap and flows down hill, which creates the suction at the tap and getting more from each tree. so tell me if my assumptions are right or wrong.
- at first flow in the morning, natural vac is not really happening because the tube isnt full, water is just flowing at the natural pressure.( unless the tubing is still full from the day before)
- as the flow increases from each tree, the tube fills up and creates the vacuum as it drains down hill.
- better sap flow days create better natural vacuum.
- steeper slope= faster sap flow per line = more taps per line to create natural vac.

I don't understand the air in the vacuum system. Does that keep the tubing from collapse? Is it the same with natural vacuum, where you need some air in the tubing for good flow?

I understand the need for larger tubing IF there are too many taps. there would be constriction that would probably cause a slowdown of flow and maybe even back pressure? Thats what I'm trying to decide if more than 20-25 taps will cause too much flow from my size trees with the slopes I have. I know its all hypothetical and I'll have to keep tweaking it, but dont want to blow it at the start by a completely wrong setup.

[Maple Hobo]

The sap lines will normally run pretty solid at full flow of the trees reguardless of gravity or vacuum. With vacuum you can see bubble chase as air is drawn into the lines from the trees, more so then just gravity.

It doesn't matter though, too many taps on a sap line doesn't increase the draw on it or the flow rate. The friction on the liquid will become a restriction and it will max out on the amount it can draw based on the fluid that can flow in the line. Think about it this way... it doesn't mater how large the gas tank is your syphoning out of... it will only flow as fast as the size of the hose your using allows. Don't confuse head pressure for flow rate though.

The problem with lines flowing solid is a vapor lock. Put a straw in a glass of water... Put your thumb on the end and pull it out of the glass. The water is stuck inside the straw. You have to remove your thumb to let air in and the water out. Your lines can have this happen even with vacuum. Limiting the length of the sap lines and sloping the laterals and main lines so they hold air over the sap even at full flow prevents this from happening. It allows the vacuum to reach farther into the system at a higher suction level too.

You can do some experiments on this.
Put a 5 gallon bucket full of water on the hill.
Syphon it out with a short length of sap line. Time how long it takes to empty the bucket.
Now run the syphon hose farther down the hill and time that and see how long it takes to empty the bucket.
Does the longer hose empty the bucket out a lot faster?
Put a splice connection on and see how much that reduces the flow, add a few and see how much that reduces it.
Next you could figure out how many trees it takes to max out the sap line's flow rate.
Keep in mind that each 3 way is a restriction like the splices on your experiment.

The solid flow on the main/lateral doesn't work as well for the vacuum though. You can design the system so it works for both. Then if you add a vacuum your set, If the vacuum breaks down (don't you love Mr. Murphy) you can still run under gravity. Phenumatics (air) don't work well through hydraulics (water) and it disrupts each time a bubble has to gulp past standing water.

Something else about the solid flow. Fill up a jug of water. Pour it out by quickly turning it over... It goes glug glug and it gasps for air. This glug is a stall in the flow. If you pour it out slower by keeping the air bubble at the neck of the jug you get the max flow without the hard glugs that shake the jug.

Now we play a trick and create a syphon effect... spin the jug neck around in a circle as you tip it quickly over. If you get a vortex to form the jug will suck air in and drain out as rapidly as possible it runs smooth and runs very fast. Basically like your toilet bowl does to suck the solids and waste down rapidly.

With a vacuum.... once you try the vacuum you'll see that it pays for itself very quickly and that it pays for itself more the longer you own it. You'll get more flow on good days and you actually get flow on days the gravity system won't run. On days it rains... you'll get your highest flows instead of nothing because the barameteric pressure is low and the trees don't naturaly run. Even on days it might snow it will run hard too depending on ground conditions.

Personally, I wouldn't want my lines to ever stand full overnight unless the trees are still flowing... I'd wish for a freeze to sweeten up the trees for the next day's run. I want my system to drain itself dry under gravity. I don't like sap freezing and making ice plugs in my lines.

Anyhow... Play with your system, its always a learning experiance. The more you tweak and experiment on it the more you'll buy and support the industry...lol

[SevenCreeksSap]

Okay I see the problem with too many taps on too small of a line. The trick is to figure out max flow per lat without overdoing it and causing backup. I'll have to play with it. too bad sap doesn't flow all year so i could test this now!

I think I've supported the industry quite a bit this year, and the building supplies industry too. :lol: I'm kind of stuck right now with what I have so I'll make it work. I know for Christmas I just need gift certificates to a syrup supplier.

[Ragged View]

So does anyone out there have more definitive data about number of taps and connectors per 5/16 line on a gravity only system? Is Proctor doing, or have they done, any research on non-vacuum systems?
Thanks,
Mark

[Like Minded Farmer]

Hi folks,

Great site. I've been reading here for a while and found lots of good stuff so decided to join. My searches don't always turn out so good but I find answers to other questions by accident. Hopefully I'll be a better mapler than computer guy. I've been enjoying mapling for quite a while off and on (but not enjoying carrying buckets) and now we decided to go into it a little more seriously. We have a lot to learn.

We just installed our first gravity tubing system and in planning it, it appears all straight forward untill actually going out there and doing it. Then many questions come up. Our laterals are on a decent slope but the main line is at about 1/4 inch drop per foot. Seems like it should work ok. I read about natural vacuum and was wondering if anyone has ever put a gauge on a gravity system to see they really get. Someone mentioned a study that got 15 inches? I'd like to know if this can really happen or get a link to this study to see how they had it set up. Also how would we get these lateral lines to completely empty before they freeze at night. We pumped it full of water, then plugged the taps then opened the bottom end to see what would happen. It flowed but we ended up with bullets of water with air between them and after a while the movement slowed and stopped. If we unplugged a tap at the top it would empty but if we do that we can expect no natural vacuum. I figure the tap won't seal in the tree as tight as it does in the tap plug so maybe it will work better for draining but then we can't expect a ton of vacuum to occur.

Above it was mentioned that the buckets out performed the tubing and I was wondering why that would happen. I read somewhere that the sap can get sucked back into the tree at night and bacteria gets the tree healing the hole so sap flow gradually drops off during the season. If this is the case is it a good idea to forget the natural vacuum and leave the top of the laterals open so they do completely drain at the end of the day and sap can't get sucked back up the line?

A vacuum system may cure all these questions in the future but for this year at least the Mrs. has had all she can take of my trips to Bascoms.

Thanks,
Tony

[DrTimPerkins]

......If this is the case is it a good idea to forget the natural vacuum and leave the top of the laterals open so they do completely drain at the end of the day and sap can't get sucked back up the line?

This is called "venting." It is very deceiving. If you vent, it appears you get great flow (which you do....briefly). Over a season, you'll get 33-50% MORE sap by NOT venting. So it's your call. You can get it fast and get way less sap, or you can get it slow and get way more. Either way the bacteria will get in. Either they'll enter via sap being pulled back, or they'll come in via the air from your vent. Most people therefore chose to NOT vent their lines.

[Like Minded Farmer]

Thanks, it looks like we won't be venting. I should just wait and see what happens but enthusiasum gets the best of me and I start trying to figure everything out, probably too quick. I can't wait.

[SevenCreeksSap]

I'm glad someone reopened this thread because it caused me to read it again and see where I am. we have managed to run a pretty closed system with the only real opening being the drain down inside the collection tank, which is sealed. we ended up with 90 taps on gravity, though I did get convinced to get some mainline, saddles, ect so with laterals instead of all 5/16. It all seems to work pretty well with the steep grade and most of it drains from what I can tell. I have noticed a few things since I'm impatient too.

I put in some tees with long drops to pick up single trees- these dont drain well and I will rearrange for next year.

It mostly drains but not all - I'm sure this is BECAUSE of the sealed system and I guess should be accepted as a good sign. if there were leaks the air would allow it to go ahead and drain out. I've been schooled here that the next flow will push that sap out and it will get replaced with new sap that probably wont all drain- sounds logical. It also seems logical that having some sap still in places may fill them faster tomorrow and start any natural vacuum effect sooner.

I'm not getting flows that I expected but from reports here many people are experiencing the same thing. It is a little irritating to see sap in the lines and think"that should be in my tank". I guess it will be there tomorrow. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with my smaller woods trees I have left after the previous owner logged it. smaller crowns on the woods trees. My yard trees are putting out twice the sap per tree.

This thing is a crapshoot and your going to get what you get from what you have, at least until I can sink more of my life savings into tubing, connectors, and a vac system. I can see that coming, and will probably still ask why I didnt get more sap.

Many people have spent years perfecting this equipment before i even tasted real maple syrup. I am not going to reinvent the spile and just try to use what they invented the way it was intended to get the best result.