Who has an auto drawoff and who doesnt and why.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Im really thinking of getting one in the next few years and would like input;)

[maple flats]

I never had nor wanted one, until this year. I recently bought one on a deal with some other equipment. The price was right. In the past, after attending a Glen Goodrich seminar I just tried to run constant draw, however slight it was. This year with an RO going online I will have lots more to keep up with, moving more product and keep up with everything else so I bought a used one. I will also have a finisher for the first time. I'm thinkinh I'll set the auto draw to open at about 117 or 118. Then pump it to the finisher. When that has a good amount I'll fire that and get proper density. From there I'll pump it to my filter pot, mix my filter aid and filter it into either my canner or a drum as needed. Getting the routine to run smoothe will be the challenge at first. For the first time I will use the pump on the filter press to move it from one location to the next by a design of tubing and valves. In the past I have always moved it manually, from draw off pot to a turkey frier burner to heat back up to 190 or so, then to my filter pot. From there it has run thru the pump and gone the rest of the way without carrying a heavy pot of hot syrup. In the past I always density checked in the canner. Just a few changes for 2012.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I also added one this year just for the shear time it will free me up. If I can walk away for 2 min longer every now and then and feel comfortable it will be worth it. I plan on making 80-100 gph. The other part to this it will help me keep a constant density.

[Mountain Winds Farm]

We added one last year and found it to be a great help.It saved a lot of dollars on LP gas at the finish pan as the density was way more consistent. Also made it easier to be talking to the constant stream of customers that we have developed with out losing syrup to overtemps !!!

[Brad W Wi]

I have a Marcland. I really like it. It frees me up a bit. You still have to watch it or at least I do. But it does the work of drawing off. I'm wood fired and I can keep feeding wood and it draws off. I can't say enough good and have no negitives about it. I did put a ball valve on it if I would loose power I could draw off manually.

[red maples]

I don't can't afford one yet!!!;) but I would like one just to free up more time as I boil alot of the time by myself. especially when nature calls!!! and when your downing many boiling soda durring the curse of extened boiling times nature calls alot!!!

[Haynes Forest Products]

You all know I love mine:) Maple flats Im doing what your going to do, I will be using a seporate pump from draw of pot to finisher because of the switching time and inability to filter during draw offs. I was scrambling to much switching between the two operations. That was before the new RO.

[Maplewalnut]

Obviously in the minority but I dont have one and probably never will. Have heard too much about hangups, valves not opening and burned pans. I like to keep my levels low when boiling and can usually dial in a continuous small draw off stream within 20 minutes or so after startup In my mind the RO helps this even more by providing consistent high concentrate not watery sap. I check with hydrometer every half hour or so but usually dont need to adjust, if anything it tends to be a little heavy and I just let it run a little extra at shutdown or dilute a little before filtering and it all works out.

go ahead rip me apart....

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Obviously in the minority but I dont have one and probably never will. Have heard too much about hangups, valves not opening and burned pans. I like to keep my levels low when boiling and can usually dial in a continuous small draw off stream within 20 minutes or so after startup In my mind the RO helps this even more by providing consistent high concentrate not watery sap. I check with hydrometer every half hour or so but usually dont need to adjust, if anything it tends to be a little heavy and I just let it run a little extra at shutdown or dilute a little before filtering and it all works out.

go ahead rip me apart....

I don't have one either. I know alot of people love them. Not to say I wouldn't. I would worry about making syrup in the center part of the syrup pan. That is the only bad thing I can see with them. The probe is in one spot only. If you didn't check the rest of the pan you could run into problems quickly. However,can see were it would be nice. Again to each his own.

[ennismaple]

We used to have a Marcland but when it died we bought an Electrogen. I'm often running the sugarhouse alone which means I'm minding the RO, firing The Beast, managing pan levels, checking syrup density, filtering, filling and labelling at the same time. I couldn't imagine running our evaporator without it.

It's one of those things that once you get one you wonder why you didn't do it sooner!

[Haynes Forest Products]

They still sell trucks without aircond and power windows. Sometimes I fell like the plate spinners on the old Ed Sullivan show. But once all the plates are in the air then its a matter of checking the wobbly ones and keep moving. I find that with the draw off I can get a few minuets doing other small tasks. Its like the RO I have it has alot of auto things that make it easier to use freeing up time to run the evap:)

[Rhino]

We don't have one either, from our 5' x 18' evap. it goes into a 2.5' x 6' finishing pan, We always make sure we have at least 2 people in the sugar house. One fireing the evap. and one fireing the finishing pan and checking density with the hydrometer often. Will be interesting with the new r.o though how this setup will work.

[bobsklarz]

Don't have auto draw, vaccuum, RO, oil or gas. Just me, my 2x6, and wood I split and gather myself. With this I can keep the price of my product affordable for my customers. Course, I'm retired, so I have the time. No need to hurry when I'm boiling.:rolleyes:

[Haynes Forest Products]

Rhino have you seen Roths set up he uses a modulating auto draw off. It never really closes it always either opening or shutting but never opens all the way or shuts all the way. I sat and watched it for a while and it gets to a point that it finds a happy medium and fluctuates/modulates keeping a steady stream.

Marcland also has a hydronic zone valve they sell and its open to close time is in the 23 second time frame....................YUP hold on a second:) It never opens all the way so it also is modulating between open and closed smothing out the draw off. I plan on going to that type of valve to get away from the stop start jackrabbit style of drawing off.

[Thad Blaisdell]

All you need to do is put a shutoff valve in front of the marcland valve to minimize the amount of out going flow. Then just close that valve a little bit until you get close to the continuous draw. That eliminates the jack rabbit start stops.

[maple flats]

I will have that valve.
I'm thinking I can have tubing and valves from the draw off, to the filter press (pump) to the finisher and to the pump again. My hope is to just open and close valves to move product anyplace within that set of equipment. The next and logical part will be as it now does, thru the filter press and either into the canner or into a bbl as needed. Maybe I'm dreaming but I think I can design it to work (until proven otherwise).

[Brian Ryther]

All you need to do is put a shutoff valve in front of the marcland valve to minimize the amount of out going flow. Then just close that valve a little bit until you get close to the continuous draw. That eliminates the jack rabbit start stops.

So why bother with the auto draw? Just set the draw off valve and right and check it often enough to make micro adjustments.
I gave up on my auto draw. It was an older Charlott (sp). Very un reliable. I find the sweet spot and can walk away for a few minuites at a time. I havn't tried the newer auto draws, I would like to try one that is a proportining valve. So when it is perfect syrup it is at 50% open, if it is 1 degree over it is at 75% open, 2 degrees over 100% open ect..

[SeanD]

Last year on the new rig, I had mostly big draws with long periods between. I'd like to get better at having a more even draw or trickle, but just couldn't manage it. It seemed it would be open too little then the temp would spike and I'd have to open it more and more until eventually I was flooding the front pan all over again.

When I tried to get an earlier jump on it, it seemed like it would sit a point or two below forever, so I'd close it up more and guess what? The temp. would shoot up and I was back to the big draws.

Are there any tips or signs people watch for? For example, when you are coming back to a new boil with sweetened pans, when do you crack it open for the first time? I admit part of my problem is also that when I shut down and close off the back pan, so much continues to evaporate during the night, that the front pans are dangerously low for the next boil. I eventually even things out and get a gradient going again, but I'm still pretty clumsy.


Sean

[Haynes Forest Products]

Thad I did go with the restrictor valve after the drawoff and it did help to smooth it out. I used a solenoid valve that worked without fail but it was open or closed so you did set up a wave effect . the valve slowed that down. I found that if you plugged off the pan sections you could trust the valve to do its thing when you fired up in the morning. I believe the 3 point over alarm is the main reason I use the draw off system.

[Rhino]

Haynes, I do business at Roths but never took the time to scope out their setup. Your jackrabbit start and stop comment fits us to a T. I am hopeing the r.o will smooth that out so we can run a steady stream, and not that it still is jack rabbiting but 3 times worse! On a sidenote....did you build your r.o room yet? I got all the building materials but didn't scab anything together yet. I have to really over kill the room with insulation cause we have no power and have to trust a L.P heater to keep it from freezing. As a backup plan, I will have one of those emergency candles that last like 180 hours or so and if it looks like a really long extended cold snap i'm gonna just bring the membrane back home with me. Thats the part of owning a r.o that bothers me.....how to make sure that membrane dosn't freeze ever.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Rhino as for the room I have the gravel area done and will wait for next year. Im putting tanks theer for the year. Want it to settle down for a better slab. Im ripping up the kitchen area putting hot water heater out side and moving the SS sink unit over making a better work flow.

[Brent]

We used to have a Marcland but when it died we bought an Electrogen. I'm often running the sugarhouse alone which means I'm minding the RO, firing The Beast, managing pan levels, checking syrup density, filtering, filling and labelling at the same time. I couldn't imagine running our evaporator without it.

It's one of those things that once you get one you wonder why you didn't do it sooner!

Where did you find the Electrogen. I have been looking at the auto draw off that CDL puts together. It uses a commercial Omron temperature controller and a commercial proptional valve. I trust the Omron much more than a breadboard rig made in a basement. Tried two made in the Maritimes and both screwed up.

I run the shack by myself, RO, pre-filter, final filter, canner. I would have even less hair without a auto draw off. Even when they screw up occasionally, its no big deal.

The less expensive route is an Omega digital thermometer. Leader sells them too, with a programmable alarm. Lets you know when you're getting close. It can be used for other stuff too .... like maple cream and candy.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I keep hearing the word "screw up" once in a while How does a PID screw up once in a while.

[lew]

Haynes,

I never had the PID screw up, but the valves can. I have had them get plugged with sugar sand and have them start leaking due to age, wear and tear. I currentely have a Marcland and love it, but the valve has gone to leaking. I need to replace it this year. Does anyone know if the proportional valves are compatible with the older Marclands, or do you need a new one designed for it?

[Shaun]

Not sure, I would think a proportional valve would be controlled in a PID mode. A solenoid valve is usually an on / off control. The "p" is how fast, "I" is how much, "D" is also called rate which isn't used that much. These parameters can be used to tune the valve based on the distance from set point 219 or what ever.

[lew]

Thanks Shaun. the Marcland does have a PID, maybe it just needs to be set up for it. Ugh, reading directions. worse yet stopping and asking someone for directions on how to set it up. I'll get my wife to do it.

[Haynes Forest Products]

The Marcland comes pre programed. Plus if you need help call Bob at Marcland he will walk you through what you need. I bet if you send it to him he will recalibrate/program it.

[danno]

Last year on the new rig, I had mostly big draws with long periods between. I'd like to get better at having a more even draw or trickle, but just couldn't manage it. It seemed it would be open too little then the temp would spike and I'd have to open it more and more until eventually I was flooding the front pan all over again.

Sean


I fight this too. My Marcland autodraw has helped alot but has not completely resolved this. As you said, problem is always with first or first and second draw, and then things settle down with smooth, almost continous draw. There are several great threads on this issue. Very regular firing, shallow pans help, etc. With our problem with the early draws, I have heard of people draining their syrup pan, seperating channels into different containers to keep channels from mixing, then replacing the syrup in the order it was removed before starting up the evap. Seems like a PIA, but I too would love to have continous, smooth draw out right out of the box.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I have never seen or heard that system sounds like a OCD problem and needs to sell the autodraw and spend it on therapy

[ennismaple]

Where did you find the Electrogen. I have been looking at the auto draw off that CDL puts together. It uses a commercial Omron temperature controller and a commercial proptional valve. I trust the Omron much more than a breadboard rig made in a basement. Tried two made in the Maritimes and both screwed up.

I run the shack by myself, RO, pre-filter, final filter, canner. I would have even less hair without a auto draw off. Even when they screw up occasionally, its no big deal.

The less expensive route is an Omega digital thermometer. Leader sells them too, with a programmable alarm. Lets you know when you're getting close. It can be used for other stuff too .... like maple cream and candy.

Brent - Lapierre sells the Electrogen units that were designed by Rejean L (of Force 5 fame).

[michiganfarmer2]

I have one. I wouldnt make syrup on this scale without one. IM a little absent minded, and I check sap flow, tank levels, float levels, evaporator levels probaby more than I need to. I am sometimes so engrossed with my OCD that I forget to check the draw off temp. I am very hapy that that auto draw off is there.

[michiganfarmer2]

I didnt answer the "why" question. I dont want to hover over a manual draw off vavle.

[twig113]

I don't can't afford one yet!!!;) but I would like one just to free up more time as I boil alot of the time by myself. especially when nature calls!!! and when your downing many boiling soda durring the curse of extened boiling times nature calls alot!!!

I was doing some research, and i just built my own auto drawoff for about $158. i can tell you how in private messages it is actually quite simple how they work and can be made

[500592]

I am sure that others I included would love to have you post a thread in the homemade section about it thanks

[michiganfarmer2]

I love mine because it frees me up to watch other things more closely. I boil with wood, and I add wood about every 7 minutes. IM busy busy

[Amber Gold]

I personally don't find a need for one. I think I"m making ~8gph and so long as you check on the temp. gauge once in a while you're all set. With the drawoff tank, it makes draws much easier. Once you have syrup, crack the valve open and dump it into the tank. Every once in a while, I'll check on the temp. gauge and adjust the ball valve as necessary. I also operate by myself and checking all the above.

A drawoff tank helps with drawing off and filtering...frees you up from having to hold a bucket.

[gmcooper]

I went 22 years with out an auto drawoff. Got by just fine and I boil all alone. Added an Ro last year and went from making 2 gph to 8 or more with concentrate. I still was quite comfortable with out an auto drawoff. This year I added an auto draw off and after a small learning curve I really do like it. I really think it let me be more consistant firing wood and gave me the chance run filter press without worrying about drawing syrup.

[Marcland]

Danno, if you have a ball valve in front of your on/off auto draw-off valve....start closing it down and let a smaller amount of syrup to draw off more often.
You should be able to force your auto draw-off to open and close the draw off valve about 40 to 50 times per hour instead of your BATCHING of 4 to 5 times per hour.
You will then get a more consistent flow approaching steady flow conditions, produce lighter syrup, more even density, floats will settle down and work better.You should eliminate the chance of caramelization or front pan scorching because the syrup will always be moving through the sections. Also the back pan temperature will not lose boil or fluctuate in temperature....all this through a cheap old ball valve and a little application thinking.

[Brent]

Danno
Last year I got a digital pyrometer for the stack from Bartlette Instruments, and was amazed to watch how
much the temperature yo-yo'ed up and down between firings. I have been advocating smaller firings for a while
but watching this high accuracy pyrometer really drove the point home. I started firing with only 3 or 4 sticks at a time. The temperatures
got much more stable and then I saw the unexpected benefit. With our smaller rig than yours, I was getting draw offs
in long continuous dribbles, some close to 10 minutes or so. It was like I was running an oil fired rig.

[sjdoyon]

We find it's a must with the number of taps we have. We fire the evaporator every four minutes with wood for a consistent heat. We paid a little over two hundred dollars to have it manufactured.

[michiganfarmer2]

I have never seen or heard that system sounds like a OCD problem and needs to sell the autodraw and spend it on therapyLOL sounds like good advice