vacuum loss

[themapleking]

Here's my problem
I have 20" at the pump only 15" at the releaser. I checked all of the lines and taps. Thighted everything up. Silicone all of the connections at the pump moisture trap and releaser. I can't here any noticable leaks. I switched vacumme gauges around. But I'm still lossing 5" from the pump to the releaser. They're only about 30ft apart. What's wrong?
Only those with the right answer need replay

[maplwrks]

Hey King,
Is your releaser level? If it isn't level the rubber flaps inside it won't seal good. Is the piston or pistons that shut vacuum off at the time of sap release, caught or stuck in a half open position? I lube mine with a thin film of food grade grease to keep them free. You will have 1 piston on a single releaser, 2 on a double. Hope this helps.

[wdchuck]

Assuming you're all tapped, maybe you drilled into a hollow tree. I did that last year (twice) and drove myself crazy trying to find where that 2 lbs of vacuum went. Finally found it washing tubing when we had the trunks of the 2 culprits half full of water!

[brookledge]

Is this a new setup or previously used. Have you checked the guages? Try switching them with each other and see if that makes a difference. Also if this is a new setup or you have a leak some where it means the vacuum pump is to small and does not have enough CFMs. Try plugging off the main lines at the releaser then the vacuum should be equal.
My money is on a bad gauge if you didn't have this problem before.
Good luck
Keith

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[brookledge]

I missed the fact that he already switched the gauges
Keith

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[themapleking]

Finely Got into the vacuum loss project. Closed the values on the lines to the releaser. Still have a 4" loss. Now I know it's between the releaser and pump.
So I disconnected the line from the releaser to the pump hooked up a gauge to the line. Still bad! Continue working from the releaser down to the pump. I Did the same process on both sides of the moisture trap. Still bad. Did the same thing at the pump before the vacuum regulator. Still about 3-1/2" loss. Looks like I have a bad Regulator.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[sweetwoodmaple]

Mapleking - Don't worry, you are far ahead of me at this point.

Fired up my system last night (lines frozen up), and I showed 20" at the releaser and pump (200' apart).

Well, with the lines partially unfrozen today, I was pulling 15" plus, then some of the ice dislodged and lines started to drain.

Long story short, I'm only pulling a few inches of vacuum. I made a super quick walk through the woods and found a split tap - fixed that and it helped a tiny bit. I also have one small leak on my home made releaser (needs fixed yet). Also took a quick walk around most of the taps and put my ear to most and couldn't find much. I have 4 sap ladders and I'm only getting flow through the first two (obviously with only 4-5" of vac).

Good thing the weather is turning cold, might have to do some real troubleshooting or get another pump online.

Brian

[brookledge]

sweetwood
I would think that if your vacuum pump is pulling 20" then it is ok. What size is it? Is this the first year with it? If you have no leaks and can't maintain atleast 17"-18" in the sugarbush then your pump does not have enough CFM's. Usually a clasic sign of this is when things begin to freeze upat night the vac. will climb and as the flow increases in the day the vacuum will drop.
You may also just have ice blockage in the main lines restricting the vac.
When the lines were partially thawed today where were you reading 15"
Keith

[sweetwoodmaple]

Keith,

This is my first year for the vacuum system. Before this, everything was gravity.

I added some isolation valves this evening to help troubleshoot (if it ever goes above freezing any time soon!).

I'll admit that I did quite a bit of changing around in the last three years, so my Lamb 4 ways have some nicks in the barbs. A classic No-No, I know. I did notice these leaking earlier today. I went around this evening with some silicone to help these out.

Also, I bought a used vacuum regulator. It had a small leak, so I gained 2-3" of vacuum by eliminating this. So I was up to a whopping 6" after this change.

Had a leak in the flapper valve on my releaser that was sporatic. I still need to fix this.

I did notice that I gained vacuum after things started to freeze up this evening. I have 350 taps on a 5 cfm pump. I will try troubleshooting more leaks before getting my other pump online.

...enough for now...Thanks for the help.

[brookledge]

Sweetwood
Your vac. pump is big enough as long as the 5 cfm is at 15-20" Hg. if it is a open flow rating (at zero"Hg) then it might be your problem. Keep plugging awy and good luck
Keith

[sweetwoodmaple]

It is a two stage pump, so should pull 5 cfm below 20" easily.

The isolation valves should help, now i just need warmer weather since i can't troubleshoot with ice in the lines.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Still fighting the battle here, but you really can't while everything is froze up.

I'm still a little confused on the sap ladder concept and tranferring vacuum. I see everyone complaining when they get sags in their mainline and how you loose some vacuum when it "glugs". Wouldn't the same be true for ladders? Should I be loosing vacuum across the ladders?

I decided to go to a slightly faster pulley system on my current pump to get a gpm or two extra to see if that helps.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[sweetwoodmaple]

Yes, I imagine you have to empty the lines (that were full from all the taps running without vacuum on) before you start to transfer much vacuum.

I have 4 spiders at the first ladder. Have about 325 taps on that. Next ladder has 3 spiders on about 180 taps. Last ladder has 2 spiders on 150 taps.

I only had a few hour period with enough above freezing to let everthing equalize. Couldn't do much troubleshooting in that amount of time on my lunch break! (only 1 hour to run around). By the time I came home, it was starting to freeze up again.

Remember, I have a delaval 75 coming from the great state of Montana. My dad has a 3400 RPM 3hp motor that I could hook up and get about 50 cfm. Heck, I could cut off one of the 1/2" mainlines and still have vacuum at the trees. Until I burnt up the pump, that is. Might have to get some Liquid Nitrogen to cool it down. 8O :D :D Would be a true Binford special...

[sweetwoodmaple]

...forgot to put a cap at the end of the last ladder (1" dia). Meant to do it 2 months ago, but the hardware store was out of caps, so I forgot about it and the last ladder is 10' in the air.

I'm such an idiot.

With the taps 1/2 unfroze today, had 19" everywhere and all 4 ladders were pulling fine. Pump get's rather warm now that I juiced it up to 7 gpm, so I'll have to fan cool it.

Tomorrow is in the 40's and sunny, so I'll really see if the pump can handle the leaks.

[murferd]

Can you get pictures of your sap ladder setup,I'm interested in doing something like that.

Thanks

[sweetwoodmaple]

Mapleman3 used to have some posted on his web site. :wink:

Maybe he will post them again and you can take a look.

[brookledge]

Brian
Atleast it was a simple fix and didn't cost much
Bet your releaved.
Keith

[themapleking]

Well I switched around differant vacuum regulators. The problem is still there. 20" at the pump. And 15" on the other side of the regulator. I noticed black dust on the pump shaft by the pulley.
Looks like another bearing is going.Must be leaking their at the seal. CONDE' pumps suck. Don't ever -ever buy one They only last one season. This is my 2nd one in 2 years. They don't hold up bearings go, don't hold vacuum, they fall apart. And the company doesn't stand behind their product.
Once again CONDE' pumps suck. Don't ever buy one

[brookledge]

Ok I won't buy one
Keith

[sweetwoodmaple]

Well, got to see my vacuum system run today with no frozen lines.

Only held 7" of vacuum. Sooo...went for a walk and found a few leaks. Plus, forgot to plug two more 5/16 end Tee's.

Long story short, holds 12-13" constant. Not great, but good enough for this season. I have a few more leaks that need fixed, including one on my releaser. If I'm lucky, that may get me up to 15".

Ladders work fine at this vacuum level.

Now, just to get some sap. Only have 50 gallons from today.

[mapleman3]

I was watching my 2 ladders work yesterday, once the ice in the lines thawed the sap was moving well... it zips up the lader sweetely(pun intended) the whole ladder shakes when it works well... mine are both lifting about 6ft each... you should do only 90 taps per spider.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Yes, my final lift is about 6', and includes 4 spiders for about 320 taps.

I have 4 lifts, 6', 4', 7', 5'. They all seem to work well. I decrease from 4 spiders to one spider, one less on each lift.

For a brief time today, I had 3 of the 4 spiders lifting on the final lift. Otherwise, only one or two spiders doing the work when the sap was running slow.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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