Hobby sized drop flues

[BryanEx]

I was at the International Plowing Match for a few days this week and checked out hobby sized evaporators from CDL, Lapierre, and Bilodeau (strangely D&G wasn't there and the location was only an hour away from HQ). All three companies were showing approximately 18x60 sized rigs with drop flues. My question would be how do you drain these things especially early in the season when hard frosts are likely? Having a flue pan on a small evaporator certainly appeals to me but not if it means waiting around long enough for things to cool down a bit so it can be poured out. There are a couple of raised flue options available in small sizes but the selection is far less for whatever reason.

- Bryan

[xyz5150]

Last year here in Michigan we had a week in the middle of season without the high temps breaking freezing. I had no troubles with freezing using a 100w bulb in a trouble light up against the front of my flues. Now that was in the middle of the season and i had pretty good sweet in the pans. If you had to you could just drain it down and pick the flue pan out and drain it, not simple or easy but doable. Or you could ( here we go ) buy patrick's new hot rod 2x4 with the 30" flue pan that has a flue drain.

[BryanEx]

Or you could ( here we go ) buy patrick's new hot rod 2x4 with the 30" flue pan that has a flue drain.

Really? I have not seen a drain fitting on any of the small drop flues including Patrick's. I have seen two raised flues but the rest of the rig just didn't impress me as much as the others.

[BobU]

On our homemade pans there are not any drains on the flues, when the temps look like they could freeze hard I have syphoned out the sweetened sap, after it has cooled alittle,and stored in food grade buckets for a short time, they might freeze, but melt quick enough the next time we "fire-up.

Use a short piece of high temp clear tubing to do the syphoning, works good once you've done it a time or two.

I would sure just go with the electric heat source, bulb or heat pad or ??, if we had electricity at the sugar bush.

[xyz5150]

BryanEx

Really? I have not seen a drain fitting on any of the small drop flues including Patrick's. I have seen two raised flues but the rest of the rig just didn't impress me as much as the others.

He had a 2x4 2 pan set with a 30" drop flue on ebay last year with a drain valve. I thought hard about buying before i decided to go bigger.:D Give him a call.

[xyz5150]

Heck theres one on ebay now.
http://http://www.ebay.com/itm/Maple-Syrup-Evaporator-Patrick-Phaneuf-2-x-4-NEW-PRO-DELUXE-/200655957429?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb806edb5

[Jim Schumacher]

I happen to be working on a drop flue right now. Look at the picture and notice the drain manifold on the back. Sorry, the pan is not yet polished.

Jim

[SapZilla]

Nice looking pan Jim. I take it the new machine is up and running. How long of flue pans can you make? How deep of flues? Can you make raised flue too?

[Ren]

Patricks 2x4 pro deluxe pan set does have a drain on the flues. I have been talking to him over the last few days and finally pulled the trigger on set of them. He says you should be able to get 25-30 gph out of them. They should be better than my homemade 2x4 divided flat pan:D

[lastwoodsman]

I wish I was closer to Jims shop I would love to see all the equipment.
Impressive looking pan!
Woodsman

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Patricks 2x4 pro deluxe pan set does have a drain on the flues. I have been talking to him over the last few days and finally pulled the trigger on set of them. He says you should be able to get 25-30 gph out of them. They should be better than my homemade 2x4 divided flat pan:D

Curios to know if anybody knows what Patrick is doing different than Leader to get so much more gph?

[xyz5150]

Greenwich Maple Man

Curios to know if anybody knows what Patrick is doing different than Leader to get so much more gph?

Like Jim's pan pictured above Patrick is using 10 flues on his flue pan, Leader is using 8 flues at least on my revolution set. Two extra flues is a lot of surface area even at 30" long.

[markct]

why is a drop flue a problem with freezing? i leave my raised flue full all the time, the sap in there is concentrated enough that it just turns to slush even when its cold for a extended time, never harmed a thing

[Ren]

Just like xyz5150 said Patricks flue pan is 24"x30" with 10 7inch flues. I believe leaders WSE pan has 6 flues 7.5" and is 24x47" long if I remember right. I have not done the math. So I don't know how close they are.

[BryanEx]

why is a drop flue a problem with freezing?
This is a good question and one I am only assuming "could" be an issue. What I saw was very narrow channels dropped below the pans leaving a fair amount of sap volume with nowhere to go if it expands from freezing. I would think that would either de-form or possibly even rupture the flues.

[3rdgen.maple]

If there is concern with freezing it doesnt matter if its a drop or a raised flue. The key is if the pans are already sweet then theres not alot of worry unless your going to have days in a row with freezing temps and even then lighting a fire to warm things up will solve that. If one is truly worried then a heat lamp or light bulb in the arch will aid you as well. I have never put in a light that I can remember and never seen my drop flue pan freeze solid, slushy yes seam busting solid ice nope wont happen with sweet in the pan. Now when you bust a seam forget I said anything :rolleyes: and yes Patrick has more flues in his pans.

[Josh Nickles]

Like Jim's pan pictured above Patrick is using 10 flues on his flue pan, Leader is using 8 flues at least on my revolution set. Two extra flues is a lot of surface area even at 30" long.

I talked to patrick(email) in the spring. He makes pans 2' wide that have 8 flues and some with 10 flues. Just an FYI. I ordered mine from Jim because he builds them out of 22ga stainless, making them the most efficient pans out of any on the market. As I checked around I found that Leader, dellair and patrick make them out of 20gauge. Any of the pans mentioned are great quality.

[Jim Schumacher]

Nice looking pan Jim. I take it the new machine is up and running. How long of flue pans can you make? How deep of flues? Can you make raised flue too?

Sapzilla, the new machine is capable of forming flues up to 11 feet long. It can form flues to no maximum depth. Raised flue pans are no problem.

Jim

[BryanEx]

You have to stop this Jim... my list of "needs" is growing too fast. :D

[adk1]

Sapzilla, the new machine is capable of forming flues up to 11 feet long. It can form flues to no maximum depth. Raised flue pans are no problem.

Jim

Jim-
Still waiting for that email pic of the preheater setup for a pan without a hood

[vernon]

I talked to patrick(email) in the spring. He makes pans 2' wide that have 8 flues and some with 10 flues. Just an FYI. I ordered mine from Jim because he builds them out of 22ga stainless, making them the most efficient pans out of any on the market. As I checked around I found that Leader, dellair and patrick make them out of 20gauge. Any of the pans mentioned are great quality.

Maybe I have this wrong but is not 20 gauge thinner than 22 gauge,and the 20 would boil better? I made my pans with 18 gauge bottoms and 22 gauge sides and dividers for stiffness. 18 gauge is a bugger to weld. Vernon

[PeddlerLakeSapper]

Gauge Thickness
18 0.0478
19 0.0418
20 0.0359
21 0.0329
22 0.0299

[Haynes Forest Products]

Have a few mig welders and have tried tig once to know It would take alot of practice to get it done right. I do know this looking at alot of the equipment out there most small pan makers dread tig welding 22 guage. Now weld it and polish it and make it look like the welded seam is a bend and your dang good in my book. Heck if your going to make it out of 18G I will mig weld it for you:) Now you know why some guys still solder the thin stuff.

[Jim Schumacher]

Jim-
Still waiting for that email pic of the preheater setup for a pan without a hood

ADK1, if you look in your email you will find that I sent you picures and information on the drip trays on the 25th of September, the day after you requested them. Please PM or email me if you need more info.

[SapZilla]

Maybe I have this wrong but is not 20 gauge thinner than 22 gauge,and the 20 would boil better? I made my pans with 18 gauge bottoms and 22 gauge sides and dividers for stiffness. 18 gauge is a bugger to weld. Vernon

You are wrong indeed vernon . Just remember, in shotguns and metal, the higher number of gauge, the smaller or thinner.

[vernon]

Yes, I was wrong as I could get on the way the gauge was read but on the pans I put the thin on the bottom and the thick on the sides and dividers..and the thin WAS a bugger to weld what-ever size it was :lol: I think it was 22 gauge.....? thanks Vernon.

[BryanEx]

Okay... so I guess the next part to my question would be if it's better to change out a hobby flat pan to a flue or go to the next size evaporator (not figuring in any future growth). Help me out with the numbers if you can...

Mason 2x4 evap with flat pan is listed at $1200. Moving up to a 2x6 flat pan would increase evaporation by 50% and cost XXX dollars (I'm guessing $800 but don't know). Keeping the 2x4 and changing to a flue pan would be about the same 50% increase in production for about $600. Both costs figure selling your used equipment at going rates plus the cost of the new purchase price. I expect I'm out on the price for a 2x6 flat pan but I can not find any examples online to work from.

Generally speaking I think the expense would be pretty close. The 2x6 would use more wood but what about the efficiency of such a small flue pan? At the most it would be 2 feet with very small dividers in the syrup pan.

Can anyone chime in with info that would be a better comparison between options? Remember, room for expansion is not a significant factor in the decision.

- Bryan

[500592]

Bryan how many taps do you have?

[BryanEx]

Currently running 75 taps with lots additional taps available. I sold out at 75 taps between my make your own syrup customers and direct sales and had to buy another 10 gallons of finished syrup. I was sold out again by late May. My sales are mostly friends, family, and co-workers rather than farm gate or markets. I'd like to see a little more volume but without huge expenses or changing the fun factor of what we are doing now. A 2x4 flat pan is perfectly suited for what we are doing but I'd like just that little extra volume rather than buying it.

[Weekend Mapler]

Not to complicate things further, but I'm in a similar position as BryanEx - debating an upgrade to a flue plan setup from my homemade arch and leader kitchen pan 21x21 and 12x21 flat pan setup. Was wondering if anyone had any pros/cons of the D&G 18x63 drop flue ($3760 on mapleguys) vs. the Lapierre 18x60 raised flue ($3300). I like the 18 x 18 inch syrup pan on these more than 2x4 setups since I do small batches (less than a gallon). Does anyone know if Patrick is making arches to to go with his new 2-in-1 flue pans?

[500592]

You may want to look at mason 2x3 if you plan on only doing 1 gallon batches but if you plan on going bigger next year you should look at maybe the next size up or if you know how many taps you will have next year almost all evaporators are rated for a certain number of taps

[xyz5150]

BryanEx
Okay... so I guess the next part to my question would be if it's better to change out a hobby flat pan to a flue or go to the next size evaporator (not figuring in any future growth). Help me out with the numbers if you can...

Are you the only person running this rig or are weekend warriors going to run it ? If guests are going to run it unsupervised at times a simple flat pan is a no brainer, but if you want speed without a lot space or sap requirement i really like the 2x4 with a 18" syrup pan and a 30" flue pan with ten flues that both Jim and Patrick are making. This setup should run with about any 8 flue 2x6 out there.

[Brent]

Curios to know if anybody knows what Patrick is doing different than Leader to get so much more gph?

Patricks flues are deeper and there are more of them.
More surface area.
And at prices lower than most, better value.

Patrick is also doing a 2 in 1 budget pan set for smaller sugarmakers that has drop flues and
syrup pan as one piece.
see http://www.maplesyrupevaporators.com/2_in_1/two_in_one_evaporator_pans.html (http://www.maplesyrupevaporators.com/)

[xyz5150]

Brent

Patrick is also doing a 2 in 1 budget pan set for smaller sugarmakers that has drop flues and
syrup pan as one piece.

I know we aren't all made of money, but to be able to remove the front pan for cleaning is priceless.

[BryanEx]

Are you the only person running this rig or are weekend warriors going to run it ?
This is a good question but I don't want to get too far off topic so i will simply say... I'm running the evaporator. Brent raises a good issue about the flues though and I will have to check what depth I have available.

- Bryan Ex

[wiam]

I know we aren't all made of money, but to be able to remove the front pan for cleaning is priceless.

This would not be a game changer in my mind. I cleaned my 2x2 front pan in place last year every day I boiled. A good shut off between pans is more important.